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BillyC3 (Kansas)
Posts: 40
Posted:
Our bylaws prohibit owners, residents, or guests from packing on the street overnight, and we have recurring violations of this bylaw.

BUT we don't want to fine people without proof and certainty that each violation has occurred.

So our current standard is a photo after sundown and before midnight of a vehicle on the street, plus a photo after 4am, where both photos show the position, orientation, and location of a wheel, and the license plate. We document these photos and the make model color, then ask the homeowner in writing if they know who's car that is.

Board members have been the ones to take the photos thus far. Often then end up getting taken through a dirty windshield, and aren't good enough to use. None of us particularly want to do this work.

Who can we hire to be parking patrol?

We'd also like them to check for and report any dome lights/headlights left on in driveways, and any garage doors or other doors left open and unattended to the board right away so we can make a positive contact in those cases.
DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posted:
Are your streets public or private?
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
You can hire parking patrol, BUT you have to pay them, that would be an increase in assessments. Be forewarned, check with you association attorney first.

It might be easier to hire a company that spots HOA violations, you then would catch everything, not specifically target on specific violation.
Targeting one specific violation might come back and nip you in the butt.
BillyC3 (Kansas)
Posts: 40
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DaveD3 on 09/19/2017 10:42 AM
Are your streets public or private?


Not relevant.

Our bylaws don't control the streets. They control resident behavior. Nobody's getting towed. We're not even trying to fine the driver. The fines are being assessed to the lot owners, because the lot owners agreed to covenants that said clearly they would not let any of their cars or guest's cars park on the street overnight.

Quote:
Posted By LetA on 09/19/2017 11:26 AM
You can hire parking patrol, BUT you have to pay them, that would be an increase in assessments. Be forewarned, check with you association attorney first.


Our bylaws expressly mention the ability to hire a private security guard if deemed necessary by the board. Our budget probably has enough room for a simple job like this without raising assessments though. There's several thousand each year that we spend on extra services and improvements that are not specifically required. Our bylaws require using funds to provide a list of mandatory services, but permit using funds as we see fit to otherwise benefit the neighborhood as a whole. For example, trimming trees or shrubs neighborhood wide.

Quote:
It might be easier to hire a company that spots HOA violations, you then would catch everything, not specifically target on specific violation.


Ok. I'll bite. What are some such companies? Do they operate at night?

Targeting one specific violation might come back and nip you in the butt.


Thank. We don't do that. I'm curious anyway though how exactly it would nip an HOA?

We have no plans to ignore any violations. But gathering evidence of overnight parking is particularly time consuming and it's by far our most common violation. Nobody on the board is getting paid to get dressed and walk around in the dark at night.

We're also not going to fine people because 'someone said someone was parked overnight'. We want photos, with time-stamps that prove beyond any question the violation is true. We've even considered marking the street around tires and signing the street with chalk for the photos.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
We have off-duty police officers as security officers and one of their duties is to help with our parking rules, which basically consist of not having semis, inoperable or unlicensed/expired vehicles parked on the street or not parking in front of the fire hydrants. Since they’re cops and our CCRs have adopted the state’s traffic and parking rules as our own, they can ticket the inoperable vehicles (or have them towed.

Recently we had a towing company come in to check for unauthorized parking in the clubhouse parking lot (parking’s not allowed unless there’s an activity going on ) and I think they might have checked for non-resident cars parked in resident parking only slots. So that may be one way to address parking in your area or perhaps you can hire a private security company.
But for this to work, you need to slow your roll and do it correctly, starting with verifying what the HOA can do, if anything regarding the streets – especially if the association doesn’t own them. Sorry, but that IS relevant – otherwise, you'll issue a fine, the driver(s) will sue the Association in protest, and if it’s discovered the HOA DOESN’T have any authority, you’ll pay a pretty penny to the plaintiff, his/her attorney’s fees and your own. That money comes out of your pockets as well as your neighbors – how do you think they’ll respond when they find out the board didn’t think this all the way through?

That’s the tricky thing about rule enforcement – without enforcement, the rules mean nothing, but someone actually has to do it. That takes time and if the board or a group of homeowners don’t want to do it, you have to hire someone to do it for you. That means shopping around for the best contractor (private security companies), negotiating contracts, advising homeowners how enforcement will work (it’s only fair and it’ll help if someone tries to fight it in court – because someone will), and of course, you’ll have to pay for all this, which will affect assessments. Homeowners don’t really like assessment increases, but if you take the time to explain what’s being done and why, they’re more likely to accept it.

Talk to your association attorney who can check your documents and do some research to find out what you can and can’t do legally and go on from there. While you’re at it consider whether the overnight parking prohibition is even necessary. It’s one thing to prohibit this because the streets are narrow and it causes traffic issues, but we live in a society where there are three and four car families – if the driveway isn’t big enough to accommodate all of them, what do you expect them to do? Perhaps some sort of tweak in the rule might be more practical.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
BillyC3 (Kansas)
Posts: 40
Posted:
While I am confident that you desire to be helpful in good faith, I didn't start this thread to debate whether we are allowed to assess fines for parking violations.

We are.

I don't personally like that bylaw. It's unfair to the residents to tell them they can't park on a street their taxes pay for. I want it gone myself, but neither I nor the board can do that on our own. Others want to keep it so they don't have to use their mirrors when backing out of their driveways, or slow down or look around corners while driving.

We have prepared an amendment to be voted on to remove it and let people street park as long as they want and the HOA can stop wasting energy on it.

Last year the membership did not vote to pass it. I'm hoping this year they will. Until they do, we will see that the current bylaw is enforced.

So back the topic at hand What companies could we hire to check for cars, take good photos, and document their findings for the board?

Either a national chain or what keywords should I search for?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Being a public street, your governing documents can restrict parking by members, tenants and guests. However, they can not restrict parking by anyone else.

Hence, if the individual across the street in a different Association wants to park their RV on a street in your neighborhood, they can. If the Association tows the Association will have major issues.

MC can and will patrol the streets if it's in their contract.
You can also hire an independent contractor to do the same.
You can hire a part time employee to do the same.

However, unless you amend the governing documents to insist every vehicle be registered with the Association (and check with an attorney to see what document such a requirement has to be in) you will still have the same issues.

Since you don't like the rule.
You might do better gathering support and changing the rule.
BillyC3 (Kansas)
Posts: 40
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 09/19/2017 3:41 PM
Being a public street, your governing documents can restrict parking by members, tenants and guests. However, they can not restrict parking by anyone else.

Yep. I get that. Everyone here knows that.
Quote:
Hence, if the individual across the street in a different Association wants to park their RV on a street in your neighborhood, they can. If the Association tows the Association will have major issues.

Yep. Like I said. Nobody's getting towed. For your information, we can't even lawfully tow a lot owner's vehicle from the public street.
Quote:
MC can and will patrol the streets if it's in their contract.
You can also hire an independent contractor to do the same.
You can hire a part time employee to do the same.

This thread exists solely to seek recommendations of contractors. Can you name any?
Quote:
However, unless you amend the governing documents to insist every vehicle be registered with the Association (and check with an attorney to see what document such a requirement has to be in) you will still have the same issues.

Why do we need to have every vehicle registered with the association? We can lawfully photograph and document any vehicle on any public street. When violations are established, we're a small community. We know who's guest it is. We establish written communication with the owner, they acknowledge it's their guest, and that's all we need to attribute the violation to them. If they wanted to make it difficult they could deny it, and we'd rely on video recording from a portable wildlife camera and/or witness testimony of occupants coming or going from it.
Quote:
Since you don't like the rule.
You might do better gathering support and changing the rule.

I don't think it's responsible to stop enforcing the covenant merely because I don't like it. Our residents hose to keep the covenant last year. We'll have it on the ballot again this year. Surely you're not suggesting I ignore violations while trying to get the amendment passed. Most of the board is against street parking, so it's uncomfortable as it is that I want to amend to permit it.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BillyC3 on 09/19/2017 3:57 PM

MC can and will patrol the streets if it's in their contract.
You can also hire an independent contractor to do the same.
You can hire a part time employee to do the same.

This thread exists solely to seek recommendations of contractors. Can you name any?

Considering I don't live in your area, no.
I doubt anyone can.

I did provide options of whom else can do the work other then the Board.
The issue will be how much is the Board willing to spend.

Quote:
Posted By BillyC3 on 09/19/2017 3:57 PM

Since you don't like the rule.
You might do better gathering support and changing the rule.

I don't think it's responsible to stop enforcing the covenant merely because I don't like it. Our residents hose to keep the covenant last year. We'll have it on the ballot again this year. Surely you're not suggesting I ignore violations while trying to get the amendment passed. Most of the board is against street parking, so it's uncomfortable as it is that I want to amend to permit it.

Keep in mind that most governing documents authorize the Board to enforce (just as they authorize any member to enforce) the covenants.

However, the choice to enforce is technically an option (just as it is for members) unless the governing documents make it a requirement.

Of course, as with any decision, there are intended and unintended consequences.

Personally, I wouldn't go looking for parking violations.
I'd simply investigate any complaints about said violations.
BillyC3 (Kansas)
Posts: 40
Posted:
I'm quite glad I live near the entrance, so I don't see the violations most days.
DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BillyC3 on 09/19/2017 12:31 PM
Posted By DaveD3 on 09/19/2017 10:42 AM
Are your streets public or private?


Not relevant.

Our bylaws don't control the streets. They control resident behavior. Nobody's getting towed. We're not even trying to fine the driver. The fines are being assessed to the lot owners, because the lot owners agreed to covenants that said clearly they would not let any of their cars or guest's cars park on the street overnight.


It certainly is relevant. Depending on how your roads are classified, your governing documents might hold absolutely no weight in a court of law.

How do you plan to establish the identification of "guests"? Are you going to monitor traffic and watch which house someone goes to? If I park in front of Jenny's house, but I spend the night down the street at Sue's house, who are you intending to fine and how will you identify them?

DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BillyC3 on 09/19/2017 3:57 PM
Posted By TimB4 on 09/19/2017 3:41 PM
Being a public street, your governing documents can restrict parking by members, tenants and guests. However, they can not restrict parking by anyone else.

Yep. I get that. Everyone here knows that.
Quote:
Hence, if the individual across the street in a different Association wants to park their RV on a street in your neighborhood, they can. If the Association tows the Association will have major issues.

Yep. Like I said. Nobody's getting towed. For your information, we can't even lawfully tow a lot owner's vehicle from the public street.
Quote:
MC can and will patrol the streets if it's in their contract.
You can also hire an independent contractor to do the same.
You can hire a part time employee to do the same.

This thread exists solely to seek recommendations of contractors. Can you name any?
Quote:
However, unless you amend the governing documents to insist every vehicle be registered with the Association (and check with an attorney to see what document such a requirement has to be in) you will still have the same issues.

Why do we need to have every vehicle registered with the association? We can lawfully photograph and document any vehicle on any public street. When violations are established, we're a small community. We know who's guest it is. We establish written communication with the owner, they acknowledge it's their guest, and that's all we need to attribute the violation to them. If they wanted to make it difficult they could deny it, and we'd rely on video recording from a portable wildlife camera and/or witness testimony of occupants coming or going from it.
Quote:
Since you don't like the rule.
You might do better gathering support and changing the rule.

I don't think it's responsible to stop enforcing the covenant merely because I don't like it. Our residents hose to keep the covenant last year. We'll have it on the ballot again this year. Surely you're not suggesting I ignore violations while trying to get the amendment passed. Most of the board is against street parking, so it's uncomfortable as it is that I want to amend to permit it.

So you're targeting a SINGLE owner? Sounds like it with the "We know whose guest it is".

Sure you need to register EVERY vehicle. What happens when the kids across the street have a sleep-over, and Johnny is driving mom's car instead of dad's truck this time, and he parks in front of Jenny's house next to my car, when I'm down at Sue's?

I understand that you have a regulation or rule against street parking overnight.
I understand that you have a majority of the board in favour.
WHY on earth does anyone care where cars are parked at night when it's dark and there's almost nobody around?
BillyC3 (Kansas)
Posts: 40
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DaveD3 on 09/19/2017 5:55 PM

How do you plan to establish the identification of "guests"? Are you going to monitor traffic and watch which house someone goes to? If I park in front of Jenny's house, but I spend the night down the street at Sue's house, who are you intending to fine and how will you identify them?


Usually, their 'host' announces their intent to violate the covenant in email at some point. Or they readily admit it when asked. Why, I don't know. If they didn't, we would review video recordings. More likely though, multiple neighbors will see it and report who's guest it is. Our houses are extremely close together. I can hear someone getting out of their car two doors down.

The owner of Sue's house is who will be fined in your example.
BillyC3 (Kansas)
Posts: 40
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DaveD3 on 09/19/2017 6:02 PM

So you're targeting a SINGLE owner? Sounds like it with the "We know whose guest it is".

Thanks for jumping the gun, but no. Allow me to clarify that sentence. The majority of the neighbors within 500 feet usually know whose guests they are. That usually includes at least one board member because of how physically dense our neighborhood is.
Quote:

Sure you need to register EVERY vehicle. What happens when the kids across the street have a sleep-over, and Johnny is driving mom's car instead of dad's truck this time, and he parks in front of Jenny's house next to my car, when I'm down at Sue's?
I understand that you have a regulation or rule against street parking overnight.
I understand that you have a majority of the board in favour.
WHY on earth does anyone care where cars are parked at night when it's dark and there's almost nobody around?

The fine isn't associated with the owner or driver of the vehicle. It falls to the owner of the house at which they are staying.

The bylaw was written before any house was constructed in this neighborhood, and its author has gone bankrupt and can not be reached. Bylaws don't generally contain rationale for every sentence therein.

The board members who like that bylaw don't like street parking at any time for any reason ever. They have cited property values, crime, driving hazard ("our corners are too sharp"). They roll their eyes at me for parking in my driveway (which is absolutely permitted), but we get along well anyway.
DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posted:
UGH.... sorry about the bold tags. Hate that this forum doesn't allow edits.
BillyC3 (Kansas)
Posts: 40
Posted:
No sweat Dave. I prefer replying in-line, and it's a headache to format it right, and better hope I got it right before I click that button!
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DaveD3 on 09/19/2017 10:42 AM
Are your streets public or private?


LOL ... OK Billy you stated Dave's question was not relevant. However, your STATE LAW via their definition notes a "Common Interest Community" is:

(f) "Common interest community" means real estate described in a declaration with respect to which a person, by virtue of the person's ownership of a unit, is obligated to pay for a share of real estate taxes, insurance premiums, maintenance, or improvement of, or services or other expenses related to, common elements, other units, or other real estate described in that declaration. The term does not include an arrangement described in K.S.A. 2012 Supp. 58-4607, and amendments thereto. For purposes of this paragraph, ownership of a unit does not include holding a leasehold interest.

Per: http://www.kslegislature.org/li_2012/b2011_12/statute/058_000_0000_chapter/058_046_0000_article/

Potentially if I was in your HOA I would take you on in a lawsuit and while I am not an attorney I will have estimated a very high probability of WINNING. YEP ... and in that lawsuit I would include my Local Government ... then I would throw them out there and say "OK protect my rights as a CITIZEN regarding the use of PUBLIC PROPERTY. If your HOA does not by virtue of the person's ownership via your CCR's be required to maintain and improve your streets ... LOL .. guess what you do not have the right to regulate! If you do not like something being parked ... see if if violates your local government ordinances. They afterall are the entity who OWNS the property.

BillyC3 (Kansas)
Posts: 40
Posted:
I am well aware of the relevant K.S.A. The state's definition of 'Common Interest Community' is not relevant to the issue at hand.

For what it's worth, I am familiar with local government and law enforcement. They are actually aware of the issue, and have expressed neutrality (appropriately). They will not enforce our covenants, and they will also not get involved in civil matters. No matter how much caps lock you use, there is no local or state law that forbids HOA covenants from controlling where owners can park.

Similarly, HOA's shouldn't investigate violations of the city's ordinances. Ideally HOA and city regulations shouldn't overlap, it's just unnecessary.

Residents (including myself) agreed that we would not park on the street overnight, and that we would be subject to fine if we did. Doing so is a breach of contract. End of story.

And again, please refrain from hijacking threads. This thread is to identify options for parking patrol service that would create records of overnight parking activity.
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BillyC3 on 09/19/2017 10:25 PM
I am well aware of the relevant K.S.A. The state's definition of 'Common Interest Community' is not relevant to the issue at hand.

For what it's worth, I am familiar with local government and law enforcement. They are actually aware of the issue, and have expressed neutrality (appropriately). They will not enforce our covenants, and they will also not get involved in civil matters. No matter how much caps lock you use, there is no local or state law that forbids HOA covenants from controlling where owners can park. Well ... sometimes it is difficult or impossible to fix STUPID.

Similarly, HOA's shouldn't investigate violations of the city's ordinances. Ideally HOA and city regulations shouldn't overlap, it's just unnecessary. LOL ... These overlap all the time. Sorry ... Most Cities prefer that an HOA take on the legal liability by superseding their ordinances. WHY ... so they can tell you exactly what they did ... that if your HOA has made themselves liable the local government is not responsible.

Residents (including myself) agreed that we would not park on the street overnight, and that we would be subject to fine if we did. Doing so is a breach of contract. End of story. LOL ... Only end of story until someone sues the tar out of you. Which if I was in your HOA and fined I would be more than happy to oblige.

And again, please refrain from hijacking threads. This thread is to identify options for parking patrol service that would create records of overnight parking activity. You really should stop spouting LIES ... because every time I have responded to your posts via QUOTES to your own statements ... is definately NOT hijacking threads. If you happen to respond off your topic ... that is your personal problem.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
It appears Billy has made his mind up on what the association will do. Billy, some of us have done our best to give you suggestions on what you might consider - since you've dismissed some suggestions out of hand (which is your right), all I can say is good luck to you.

By the way, I believe the posting rules of this site specifically prohibit advertising or naming specific people communities, etc. So, if you want suggestions on which contractor to consider, you'll just have to pick up the phone book and look (or Google it). Start with "private security" and make some phone calls - some companies might not be able to do as you ask, but they might give you a referral. Or try your local chamber of commerce. Or call a few towing companies - not to hire them, but they might know some security companies to consider.


If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
BillyC3 (Kansas)
Posts: 40
Posted:
Good points. I wasn't asking for opinions on what our bylaws said because they are quite clear. Its not 'my mind' that has been made up. Its black and white text from 2008. I've tried getting the members to agree to remove the restriction before, and they chose not to. Neither I nor the board can do that on our own.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Well, here's another way to look at it. The membership likes the no parking at night rule, but there are issues with enforcing it because the board members don't have the time to do it (people often forget that board members have lives too).

So - put it to the members. Here's the problem, here's what can happen if we don't address it, the board is considering hiring a security company to help enforce the rule. If we do that, hiring private security will increase your assessments - and if you're found violating the rules, you'll be fined X. All this will take effect on X date (give them at least 30 days advance notice) so you've been warned. Start paying attention to who's parking in front of your home because YOU may be held responsible. Don't like our plan? Ok - you also said you don't want to drop the prohibition, so what the hell do you suggest - we board members have lives too and we are not spending all of our free time running around the neighborhood keeping track of this.

Of course, you can find a softer way of saying this (or not), but homeowners need to understand they can't always get what they want and too often rule enforcement is great until THEY get the violation letter and all hell breaks loose. In this case, the homeowners will either ignore everything you say, come up with a solution or do something in between.

It may also be that this issue isn't as important as you think it is. Yes, rules enforcement is important, but sometimes, some rules need to be enforced more strenuously than others until people get the hint of what is and isn't acceptable. Your board may be better off spending its time emphasizing enforcement of something else. If people object, remind them of what you said earlier and let's see if they come up with something.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BillyC3 on 09/20/2017 6:36 AM
Good points. I wasn't asking for opinions on what our bylaws said because they are quite clear. Its not 'my mind' that has been made up. Its black and white text from 2008. I've tried getting the members to agree to remove the restriction before, and they chose not to. Neither I nor the board can do that on our own.


I am confused ... you stated you have tried getting the members to agree to remove the restriction ... YET you attacked me regarding and defending the issue. Even though I pointed out that the issue potentially VIOLATES your State Law. You do understand that your CCR's cannot violate your State Law? Potentially items which violate your State Law ... become "Null and Void".
BillyC3 (Kansas)
Posts: 40
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JanetB2 on 09/21/2017 9:03 PM
Posted By BillyC3 on 09/20/2017 6:36 AM
Good points. I wasn't asking for opinions on what our bylaws said because they are quite clear. Its not 'my mind' that has been made up. Its black and white text from 2008. I've tried getting the members to agree to remove the restriction before, and they chose not to. Neither I nor the board can do that on our own.


I am confused ... you stated you have tried getting the members to agree to remove the restriction ... YET you attacked me regarding and defending the issue. Even though I pointed out that the issue potentially VIOLATES your State Law. You do understand that your CCR's cannot violate your State Law? Potentially items which violate your State Law ... become "Null and Void".

It just as much potentially violates maritime law.

There is no law against private citizens entering into contractual obligations on their own free volition.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Billy,

You have stated that the Bylaws prohibit overnight parking.
You have stated that the enough of the membership supports this idea to keep it.
You have stated that the Board doesn't want to fine without proof.
You have stated that the Board is producing the proof but is tired of doing so.
Your question was who can we hire to do this job.

Those who have posted replies have offered the following:

Hire an MC, PM, Independent Contractor, employee, tow company and off duty police to enforce.

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