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ToddR4 (Florida)
Posts: 23
Posted:
Good afternoon....

I live in a HOA community in SW Florida that was recently (December 2016) turned over to the property owners by a large national developer.

Like most HOA's prior to turn over, we have retired individuals who are former "captains of industry" that want to create their personal "monument" within the community.

The census of our community is 55% retired, 45% working families.

Current board make up is 90% retired, 10% working.

PRIOR to turnover, a group lead by the current HOA president created a scheme where he negotiated a better telecommunications deal with a national provider and banked the savings, $700.00 per year X 1,300 property owners - $910,000.00 annually. He organized a "picket" against the large national developer PRIOR to turnover to force their hand to approve this scheme.

Legal told us this scheme was unethical, but not illegal. It just doesn't feel right.

Here is the issue.....now.

The HOA and majority of the board want to expand the clubhouse from 5,000 square feet to 15,000 square feet. Approximate cost - $2.5MM. You don't build a church for just Christmas and Easter.

An INFORMAL survey was conducted, NO FORMAL VOTE, to the property owners with the survey positioned about saving $700.00 in telecommunications cost per resident, but nothing about a clubhouse expansion, or any capital improvement.

Guess what? The board is ramrodding this clubhouse expansion through the community with voter suppression refusing to allow electronic voting, which the HOA attorney has the tool to provide. The HOA attorney is a large Florida firm. The seniors want to use regular paper ballots to avoid "computer hacking". Really?

The real reason is it avoids participation within 45% of the census. Working families who will not wake up until the assessment begin and the pocket book is hit.

Questions:
1. Does a clubhouse expansion add value to the overall property values within a community?
2. Experiences with electronic voting?
3. Suggestions?

Any feedback or experiences would be greatly appreciated. I am part of the opposition group that is fighting with the board and the special interest pressing these issues.

Thank you!
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
What is going to go in the "club house" bigger pool? more amenities?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ToddR4 on 08/15/2017 12:52 PM

The real reason is it avoids participation within 45% of the census. Working families who will not wake up until the assessment begin and the pocket book is hit.

This is why those who oppose it need to start knocking on doors.
If proxies are allowed, solicit proxies.

ToddR4 (Florida)
Posts: 23
Posted:
Only the square footage is being increased to support activities like bingo and other social events. My position is the project needs to be retrofitted first, and phased afterwards according to need.

Taking on this size of an expansion plan so quickly after transition is "death".

Plus, there is $7MM in repair and replacement cost over the next 15 years with $5.0MM due in the next 5 years.

The board refuses to address the increased operating cost of the "white elephant" during non peak season. Please understand, for six months of the year, this facility would only be used at approximately 30% of capacity. For three months a year, it would be used at 90%. Therefore, my point - you don't build a church for just Christmas.

Any thought on empirical data that supports increased property values with an expansion of this magnitude?

Thank you for the reply!
ToddR4 (Florida)
Posts: 23
Posted:
Great suggestion!

Anything other feedback is greatly appreciated.
DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724
Posted:
A detailed letter to all of the residents explaining the increase in assessments would go a long way.
ToddR4 (Florida)
Posts: 23
Posted:
Any recommendations on emails, or physical mail piece delivered to the mail box?

Experiences with greatest impact and successes?
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Does FL have a $$$$ limit on how much an HOA can spend for a capital improvement without a vote of the Owners??

Do your own documents have a limit on such expenditures, Todd?

The $7.5M you refer to is in your reserve study, right, Todd, to refurbish various aspects of the existing clubhouse? So that's an entirely different thing.

I didn't know (not surprising) that FL permits electronic voting in HOAs. CA does not.

Have no idea if the expansion would add value. I suppose it depends on the local market in your area for this type of amenity. You say it would not get much year-'round use, so......????
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Be factual.
Don't embellish.
Cite resources.
Give locations where things can be verified (for those who trust but want to verify)
Summarize at the end: I oppose because of a) b) c)
Keep it short - one page max
ToddR4 (Florida)
Posts: 23
Posted:
Does FL have a $$$$ limit on how much an HOA can spend for a capital improvement without a vote of the Owners?? Great question.

Do your own documents have a limit on such expenditures, Todd? $30,000.00 is the amount.

The $7.5M you refer to is in your reserve study, right, Todd, to refurbish various aspects of the existing clubhouse? So that's an entirely different thing. Correct, nothing regarding the clubhouse expansion. Asphalt repairs, interior pool refinishing, new A/C, etc.

I didn't know (not surprising) that FL permits electronic voting in HOAs. CA does not. Yes, FL does. Better yet, the law firm we pay for via the HOA has the tool available. The existing board wants to suppress participation.

Have no idea if the expansion would add value. I suppose it depends on the local market in your area for this type of amenity. You say it would not get much year-'round use, so......???? I would say.....no significant impact to values. Could potentially be a negative impact for prospective buyers is the quarterly HOA dues are too expensive.
DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724
Posted:
I would try to come across as unbiased as possible. You may not have a lot of facts, but you can generate enough interest that will draw out the facts.
For instance you may not know what the actual assessments will be per lot, so you can say "I have read where improvements such as these can lead to assessments being in the thousands". I've read that people that couldn't afford it lost their homes...". Scare tactic? Hell yes. Raise the level of fear to get the participation.

I would also mention that this new addition will change the existing the reserves. A new analysis will need to be completed. The Power bill will likely double.

Don't rely on it not being used all year. Swimming pools are like that and people still pay for them to ready when they are.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Is your HOA for profit or not for profit? You mentioned using the clubhouse for Bingo. Where are those Bing funds going to? Are those games part of the HOA income? There's several factors to figure in if that is the case. Expanding the facilities to justify business needs may make sense.

I am not going to knock the project because only seeing the one point of view. One that is against it. I find that listening to the other side's reasoning may lead to supporting your side against. The questions and answers you get from those supporting could show others why it's not a good idea or it is.

Former HOA President
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
There's nothing in the Florida HOA statute regarding the need for homeowner approval for capital improvements above a certain dollar figure. I think there is no statutory requirement to conduct a vote of the homeowners regarding such an expenditure. There may be one in the governing documents. If it was a condo association, things would be different but HOA law lags behind in Florida.

Another option is to recall some or all of the directors and replace them with others who will vote against the project. That's going to require 651 signatures on a recall ballot, however, and there's no provision in the law to conduct THAT vote online.

Electronic voting is sort of new, only becoming legal last year. If authorized by a board resolution, each owner must be given the OPTION to vote electronically. The statute does not call for an all-or-nothing electronic voting system that forces people to vote online. I, too, worry about the security aspects but there are some clear benefits, especially in larger associations, and 1,300 homeowners is a pretty good size. Obtaining quorum may be challenging in larger HOAs and an additional benefit of electronic voting is that every vote cast electronically counts as an owner "in attendance" for the purpose of establishing a quorum at a meeting.

A $2.5 million expenditure seems like fertile ground for shenanigans and a board hell bent on ramrodding through a large expenditure like this clubhouse expansion does raise some red flags of suspicion.

If the board doesn't want to let the members vote on the project and there's nothing in the governing documents that says such a vote is necessary, you're out of luck unless you can find 651 signatures to recall directors before any contracts are signed.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
1 – it’s hard to say if a clubhouse expansion or anything else increases property value. I don’t think this is a yes or no question because it’s too subjective. What is the board proposing to add? How many people use it now and how many more would use it after the expansion? And who knows future owners might think – how do you know if it’s a deal maker or breaker when it comes to buying a house in the community? Potential and future owners might say it’s a wonderful idea, others a terrible idea and still others won’t care.

Personally, I'd be more concerned about the cost - can the community afford to expand the clubhouse and is it willing to pay higher assessments to maintain it? How long will expansion take and how disruptive will construction activity be (e.g. street blocking and the like?) That's what you should focus on - it's more objective.

2 and 3– we don’t use electronic voting, but I don’t see a problem if your documents and/or state law allows it and there’s a way the voting can be secured (no hacking by Russia or anyone else!) and multiple votes cast by the same person can be prevented.

I don’t see why you can’t allow paper and electronic voting – charter an election committee that can monitor both to ensure fairness, with a special meeting being called and the paper ballots be opened and counted at that time. The HOA attorney can also present the results of the electronic voting after committee members have audited the collection and counting (however that’s done)

Your board can’t ram anything through if the homeowners get up and speak up, starting with casting a vote. If paper ballots are all that’s being allowed, then get some election monitors as I suggested above. If working families or anyone else feels strongly about this expansion one way or another, they will make time to cast a vote. And if the board tries an end run, well, check your documents to see what it says about recalls and then do what’s ‘necessary to get them out and replaced with others (you, perhaps?)

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Success with letters from some of us to every member was an election campaign. There were 3 open seats on a board of 7, and we had three candidates. We wrote a clear honest letter with no hyperbole or attacks on the oppositions. Strictly facts about how we three would help improve our HOA. So, I agree with Tim & Douglas and definitely, no more than one page. I do think many owners will not think ahead to the e increased expenses of such a large space and the increased contribution to our expanded reserves components.

(Two of us won the above election, and one year later we were in the majority. Even for that interim year we were very successful in fostering more openness and transparency and and forcing the weakening remnants of the old regime to abide by our governing docs and state laws.

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