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FirstL3 (Illinois)
Posts: 40
Posted:
Our HOA outlawed many years ago the right of renting units obtaining a 2/3 majority.
Some homeowners were concerned about issues such as increased insurance rates for all homeowners, obtaining a mortgage, and issues of any kind.

Our local market has still not recovered (60067) and many townhouses were sold below fair value afters some owners had to short sell.

Are the fears objective of renting or should we allow renting?
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Personally, I don't like renting (I also live in a townhouse community) unless it's a homeowner who has a hardship, such as moving out of state and needing some way to cover those expenses until the house is sold (preferably to another owner occupant.).

My sister once told me townhomes and condos often have a tough time with property value because so many people tend to buy them just to rent them out, which hurts those of us who bought a home we could afford and were ok with sharing exterior expenses like snow removal. Your community sounds a lot like mine - some of the homes sold under market value and a lot of them were lost to foreclosure, which sucked up property values even more. It may take some time before they recover, but at the same time, you have to look at your community's demographics.

In our case, we do have a lot of owners who are getting older and may soon have to move in with kids or live in senior housing of some kind, so they wither rent the place out for extra income or have to sell it, which may take some time. You may want to poll your community and see what the homeowners think, as well as talk to some local realtors who are familiar with your community and the overall market for townhomes in your area to see what the trends are. And maybe a few bankers to see if the mortgage issue is still there.

If you change the rules stating only a certain percentage of homes can be rented, you'll need to figure out how that will be enforced because people may say anything to be allowed to rent. Some communities have also changed their rules to require owner occupancy for the first two years after purchase to discourage investors, but again, there may be some creative thinkers who can get around this. And of course, they can also lie and get away with it.

In the end, the best you can do is make sure you have a good handle on the budget, especially reserves and a fair and consistent rules enforcement policy. Ideally, you shouldn't be able to tell the difference between a renter and an owner occupant because everyone behaves responsibly - in fact, you may find the renters are better neighbors than the owners! And make sure your assessments keep up with inflation - investors are cheap as hell and usually don't want to buy into communities where the assessment will put a major crimp in profits. They don't always like consistent rules enforcement either because they have to spend more time and money vetting good tenants, so if you let it be known to everyone what will and will not be tolerated, that can go a long way in keeping the crazies at bay.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
I'm in a townhome community.

You mentioned units which makes me expect that your townhomes are considered condominiums.
Ours are not. They are fee simple.

We have rentals with very few issues.

I bought my home for $180K they are now selling for $450K

With your rental restrictions, do you have a hardship clause?
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
We're high rise 200+ condo units in a busy, desirable urban setting. About 30% of our units are rentals. During the recession, we were 42% rentals. Our sales prices rebounded 2-3 years ago.

I do not believe our insurance rates are affected by rentals--agent hasn't asked. Now, FHA-backed loans have a % rental limit, I thin. Look into that.

If you do permit rentals, you want to keep them, I'd think under 20- 30% of your total THs. And you'd want to place limits on a minimum period, say 6 months.

If legal, you'd want, I assume, to limit the # of people per TH sq. ft., and the number and even types of dogs.

As Sheila says, you must be prepared to enforce your rules against all residents and create a tough fining schedule to deter repeat offenders. You must make it very clear to owners that they are responsible for their tenants' conduct. I'd say, in general, you want to assess all of your rules including such issues as parking, which seems to be a problem in many HOAs.

Are you on the Board, First? What size HOA is yours? What are the implications of yur values not rebounding? Lots of vacancies? Lots of delinquencies? Or?

FirstL3 (Illinois)
Posts: 40
Posted:
Yes, I am on the board. We have 40 units (town homes).
One reason for the price depression is oversupply. But some folks who had to move or employer moved them sold very quickly for a very low price.
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
You should consider that all rentals go through a property management agency, AND require the renter purchase renters insurance and make the association a beneficiary. That way if the policy lapses you have a recourse.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Technically rental restrictions are not "legal" in most states with a few exceptions or restrictions. Basically not allowing rentals can be in your documents all day long but does not mean it's enforceable. The HOA does NOT own the rental property. They are a 3rd party. So don't assume that your HOA can actually restrict rentals. Find out the laws in your state cause they overrule your HOA rules.

BTW: What is the punishment for renting? Is their a fine or simply the wording one can not rent? You can restrict but there has to be a consequence.

Not much a HOA can do if an owner decides to rent. They can recommend the owner put into their lease agreement to follow the HOA rules. Which would protect all parties involved in that agreement. However, the HOA can NOT enforce any punishments onto the renter as the renter is NOT a HOA member. The owner is the HOA members whose feet are kept to the floor over anything the renter may violate.

Now the damage renting can cause? It may effect refinance rates, type of loan packages offered, and the appearances of homes. It has to be a pretty high amount like over 50% rental before those effects are really felt/noticed. Home appearance is enforceable by the HOA against the owner. However, refinance rate/loan packages are something one doesn't "see". It's a hidden cost of HOA rental property.

BTW: I rented my HOA property out. My benefit was that my HOA dues now became tax deductible plus any repairs. Dues aren't tax deduction if it's your residence. Otherwise all the other owning rental property issues still are the same.

Former HOA President
FirstL3 (Illinois)
Posts: 40
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/04/2017 9:49 PM
Technically rental restrictions are not "legal" in most states with a few exceptions or restrictions. Basically not allowing rentals can be in your documents all day long but does not mean it's enforceable. The HOA does NOT own the rental property. They are a 3rd party. So don't assume that your HOA can actually restrict rentals. Find out the laws in your state cause they overrule your HOA rules.

BTW: What is the punishment for renting? Is their a fine or simply the wording one can not rent? You can restrict but there has to be a consequence.

Not much a HOA can do if an owner decides to rent. They can recommend the owner put into their lease agreement to follow the HOA rules. Which would protect all parties involved in that agreement. However, the HOA can NOT enforce any punishments onto the renter as the renter is NOT a HOA member. The owner is the HOA members whose feet are kept to the floor over anything the renter may violate.

Now the damage renting can cause? It may effect refinance rates, type of loan packages offered, and the appearances of homes. It has to be a pretty high amount like over 50% rental before those effects are really felt/noticed. Home appearance is enforceable by the HOA against the owner. However, refinance rate/loan packages are something one doesn't "see". It's a hidden cost of HOA rental property.

BTW: I rented my HOA property out. My benefit was that my HOA dues now became tax deductible plus any repairs. Dues aren't tax deduction if it's your residence. Otherwise all the other owning rental property issues still are the same.

This is interesting either way. How woudl I go about researching this for IL?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/04/2017 9:49 PM

Technically rental restrictions are not "legal" in most states with a few exceptions or restrictions.

Please provide your basis for such a statement.

If rental restrictions are within the CC&Rs and there are provisions for hardship cases, contract law will likely prevail.

If the rental restrictions are within any other document (other then the covenants), the restrictions will likely be squashed in a legal challenge.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I recall a poster from IL a few years ago wondering how to get out of the rental limits in his HOA, so maybe they are legal there. With Tim, if your CC&Rs have restrictions you should be OK.

In CA, there's material about rental restrictions in our Civil Code, so you need to look at IL laws, First.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Remember the HOA laws are trumped by local, state, and federal laws. You can have some special restrictions of course. Like only white shades in front windows etc... However, when it comes to rental property and renter's rights issues, then the other laws take over.

Since the HOA does not own the home, then how can they then tell someone they can't rent that home? The mortgage/Banks may have that restriction like no renting for 2 years after purchase. Some HOA's even have that as a rule in their CC&R's for their rental restrictions. However, tell me how a HOA can tell me what I can do with my home outside aesthetics?

I believe you can have rental restrictions in your HOA documents all the live long day. The issue isn't that. It's the enforcement of such a rule. If you fine me, I will continue to pay the fine. Why? Cause I can roll that into what I charge for rent. As long as I am paying that fine, I am not in subject to further action. (Lien/foreclosure). Better yet, any legal costs I incur fighting the HOA can become tax deductible on my rental property.

The expense of fines or legal fight may be worth it if I am in a hardship situation. Plus the OP did not disclose if there was such an exception written into their documents. Just that they don't allow rentals. What is the punishment?

A good lawyer could easily sue the HOA successfully and allow their client the ability to rent out. The best solution again is to allow rentals but have owners write into the lease agreement to obey the CC&R's. IF they do not, then that can be the basis of eviction. Otherwise, you have to deal with tenant's rights. Which in some states means a tenant can get away with NOT paying rent for up to a year. Plus the HOA can't evict them. They can keep fining the owner. Who the owner if not protected by that statement, can't evict as it's not a part of the agreement.

BTW: I rented my HOA home out for 2 years. First Tenant skipped rent. The 2nd tenant took me 5 months to kick out. He had moved a baby Emu into my back yard! So I do have some good rental nightmare stories as well. However, I won't tell someone they can experience that as well if they choose to rent.

Former HOA President
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/05/2017 7:45 AM

However, when it comes to rental property and renter's rights issues, then the other laws take over.

I've yet to see a statute that specifies you have a right to rent your home if your covenants say you can't. Please provide one.

Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/05/2017 7:45 AM

Since the HOA does not own the home, then how can they then tell someone they can't rent that home?

Via contractual agreement. The covenants are, effectively, a contract between the home owner and the other owners within the development. The Association administrates that contract.

Anyone can sign away rights (real or perceived) via contract. It happens all the time.

Years ago, many Associations were putting rental restrictions within their Bylaws or as a policy resolution. Those restrictions were overturned by the courts. However, those Associations that had restrictions within their covenants were upheld by the courts.

Outright banning renting are easier to enforce and withstand legal challenges then capping rentals.

Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/05/2017 7:45 AM

However, tell me how a HOA can tell me what I can do with my home outside aesthetics?

Off topic, but this would also be via contractual agreement.

Every covenant I have read says that prior approval is required prior to making exterior changes.
Hence, that is how the HOA can tell you what you can do with your home outside aesthetics.

Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/05/2017 7:45 AM

I believe you can have rental restrictions in your HOA documents all the live long day. The issue isn't that. It's the enforcement of such a rule. If you fine me, I will continue to pay the fine. Why? Cause I can roll that into what I charge for rent. As long as I am paying that fine, I am not in subject to further action. (Lien/foreclosure). Better yet, any legal costs I incur fighting the HOA can become tax deductible on my rental property.

As with any covenant enforcement, the ultimate enforcement action is through the courts.
Warning letters and monetary penalties are simply an attempt to achieve compliance and avoid going through the courts.

Yes, you might be able to write off your legal expenses on the rental, but you still have to pay them. If you lose, you might have to pay the Associations legal expenses as well and lose the income.

Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/05/2017 7:45 AM

A good lawyer could easily sue the HOA successfully and allow their client the ability to rent out.

Again, this depends on where the restrictions are written i.e. the facts of the specific case.

TimM11
Posts: 354
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 08/04/2017 6:58 PM
Now, FHA-backed loans have a % rental limit, I thin. Look into that.

It's typically 50%, but in 2016 they raised it to 65% for certain associations that can meet stricter guidelines regarding finances and low delinquency.

The FHA mortgage limit is probably the best argument in favor of a rental cap, at least for associations where they are common. It's one of the reasons why mine is working on one. But in general, it shouldn't matter if a unit is a rental or owner-occupied.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I admire your patience, TimB.

One way, Melissa, to enforce rental limits, e.g., no rentals less than 30 days as we have here, is through heavy fining against, of course, the Owner. Ours is $1,000 for first violation with subsequent violations subject to doubling.

Thanks for FHA info, TimM--I knew something had changed, but couldn't remember what. We are certified for FHA, but it's only used for folks seeking reverse mortgages in my HOA.

So, First.....has oversupply left you with too many vacant THs? I'm truing to understand why you're considering lightening up on your rental restricts as you sounds as if it fits with your depressed market values. What is the relationship?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Question: What if your neighbor tells you that you can't rent out your home?

Former HOA President
FirstL3 (Illinois)
Posts: 40
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 08/05/2017 11:34 AM
I admire your patience, TimB.

One way, Melissa, to enforce rental limits, e.g., no rentals less than 30 days as we have here, is through heavy fining against, of course, the Owner. Ours is $1,000 for first violation with subsequent violations subject to doubling.

Thanks for FHA info, TimM--I knew something had changed, but couldn't remember what. We are certified for FHA, but it's only used for folks seeking reverse mortgages in my HOA.

So, First.....has oversupply left you with too many vacant THs? I'm truing to understand why you're considering lightening up on your rental restricts as you sounds as if it fits with your depressed market values. What is the relationship?

Many new town-homes are being built that are sold at prices that current owners woudl like to sell their older units. I would expect that the new construction is going to slow down and supply is being reduced again. Like I said before the comps are hurting us as well. Some owners sold short. Either couldn't wait to get out or had corp relo companies. Those low prices seem to be the new bar for now.
TimM11
Posts: 354
Posted:
Well, if it comes down to letting people rent out their townhomes, or have several go into foreclosure because people can't sell them, I'd go with the former. That, at least, can be managed. People won't wait out the market forever.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Are you saying, First, that loosening your rental restrictions might bring more buyers into your HOA? Put a noter way, that the loosening would make your HOA more competitive? I'm stilling missing the connection between the two topics.

Do the new nearby HOAs have any rental restrictions?
FirstL3 (Illinois)
Posts: 40
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 08/05/2017 3:45 PM
Are you saying, First, that loosening your rental restrictions might bring more buyers into your HOA? Put a noter way, that the loosening would make your HOA more competitive? I'm stilling missing the connection between the two topics.

Do the new nearby HOAs have any rental restrictions?

I would allow homeowners who have or want to move not to sell at the current low prices, can wait until the market stabilized. Bridge with renting

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Think it's time to present this idea to the members and take another vote. Opinions may have changes about the rental restrictions since it last past. Simply change the rules if you don't like them or can't live with them.

Former HOA President
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
About 60% of the units at my condominium HOA are rentals. The condo has about 200 units. I think the biggest problem is the many out-of-town owners. The out-of-towners are mostly unwilling to be on the board or serve the architectural control needs. The out-of-towners are key to apathy in a community that by law, must be run by volunteers. There is a revolving door of moving. Neighbors can be great one week and then terrible the next. I think management is a little overwhelmed with renter complaints and the attitude of renters. Renters are not going to come to board meetings and complain about services. They will go to their landlords, who may or may not really care. Market prices today are about halfway to meeting what they were before the crash.

The only advantage I see to allowing renters is to benefit those who are owner-investor-landlords and do not care nearly as much about property upkeep as owner-residents. If I buy into another HOA, the first and second statistics I want to see are: How big is the reserve fund, and what percentage of units are currently rentals.

Overall, do rentals help property values? I do not think so.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Over the last 4 years in my HOA of 100 homes, the biggest problems we have had are with renters. Three homes that are leased are the source of most of the complaints that the board hears (rightly or wrongly). We also have 2 other homes that are leased and those tenants are wonderful people that anyone would be happy to have as neighbors. I think it's very hard to make a blanket statement regarding the desirability of renters. Every situation is different and because you will always have "hardship exemptions" to deal with, there's probably no way to practically ban them completely.

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