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44 year old ccrs

Started by SusanB35 • 12 replies • 1078 views

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SusanB35 (Idaho)
Posts: 4
Posted:
My community was built in 1965. It is a well kept and a very nice neighborhood. "CCRs run with the land and shall be binding for 25 years from recording after which they will be automatically renewed every 10 years." The latest documents on file are dated April 10 1974 adding a new person to the Architectural Committee. All folks as of this date, that are listed on the Architectural Committee have now passed on. What does it mean if there is no one left and nothing passed on to a new person? Are the CCRs still renewed automatically? About 3 years ago we erected a shop and just went through the city for permits. No one said anything to us about anything then or now....Just trying to gain knowledge here. Thank you for any assistance.
DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046
Posted:
I don't know about Idaho specific law, maybe someone else will chime in on that.

Some states have laws that eliminate or modify CCRs after some period of time if they are not preserved or renewed. In Florida it's MRTA after 30 years.

In the absence of such laws, your CCRs could very well be valid. I'm not exactly sure what you mean here:
The latest documents on file are dated April 10 1974 adding a new person to the Architectural Committee, but generally committee appointments are not recorded with the government, so that doesn't seem like that would make any difference.

Are there any dues? Do your CCRs establish an HOA? If so, it might be inactive, but could be resurrected if enough owners decide to do that. Even lacking an HOA, most CCRs give any owner the power to enforce. Since the CCRs are essentially a contract between owners, enforcement would involve civil legal action (suing). If there is no active AC, then of course you can't get approval, so as long as you aren't in violation of the CCRs you are probably ok. Do the CCRs explicitly prohibit your shed? Some CCRs also say that ACs have to respond within some period of time (30 days for example) or the application is deemed automatically approved. If yours do, you could send an application via certified mail to any address listed in the CCRs or the last address of the AC. I'm not sure if that would make much difference, but it's fairly cheap and could help if an issue ever arises.
Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046
Posted:
Sorry, "Shop", not "shed".
Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
SusanB35 (Idaho)
Posts: 4
Posted:
No HOA, No Dues. The document did name a successor to the Architectural Committee back in 1974. This was notorized. Yes, there is a clause that states the 30 day timeline/automatically approved or notify before finishing construction on an outbuilding. I think I am safe! What happens if no successor was named? We have no one on an Architectural committee. Does it just dissolve, can someone else just pick it up? Older neighborhood and most houses are only on their second owner. Well kept and pride of ownership abounds. Would like to keep it that way! THANK YOU for answering my question and prompting me to dig a bit deeper! I do appreciate your time! Susan
GwenG (Florida)
Posts: 669
Posted:
You said your community was built in 1965. When were the CCR's actually recorded? (Generally, this is before selling begins but not always.)

The public record must show that the CCR's were renewed before the expiration of the 25 years and that they were renewed according to the procedures in your governing documents.

An Architectural Committee derives its authority from the CCR's. If the CCR's have expired presumably in 1990, then there are no CCR's and of course, no Architectural Committee. You could, of course, have an advisory Committee, but it would have no enforcement authority.

I never heard of a Committee "Successor" or of a Committee being publicly recorded. Was this Committee created by authority of the 1965 or 1974 CCR's or is this something outside the CCR's? Or was this a Developer naming a Successor Declarant?

DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046
Posted:
If the AC has lapsed and the CCRs are silent on how to re-establish it, then I'm not really sure what that procedure would be. I would assume that it could be re-established somehow if anybody wanted to. In the worst case, a court order could do it. Hopefully others will chime in with more opinions or ideas. Also note that none of the regular posters here admit to being lawyers so if you want an opinion with more weight, you could consult one.
Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724
Posted:
Why are you asking this question? Has one of your neighbors complained about the shop?

If so, go talk to them and see what authority they are using to file the complaint. You may find the CC&R's are still intact and you may have to remove the shop.
DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GwenG on 08/02/2017 10:54 AM
You said your community was built in 1965. When were the CCR's actually recorded? (Generally, this is before selling begins but not always.)

The public record must show that the CCR's were renewed before the expiration of the 25 years and that they were renewed according to the procedures in your governing documents.

An Architectural Committee derives its authority from the CCR's. If the CCR's have expired presumably in 1990, then there are no CCR's and of course, no Architectural Committee. You could, of course, have an advisory Committee, but it would have no enforcement authority.

I never heard of a Committee "Successor" or of a Committee being publicly recorded. Was this Committee created by authority of the 1965 or 1974 CCR's or is this something outside the CCR's? Or was this a Developer naming a Successor Declarant?


We have similar verbiage about auto renewing and our lawyer assured us that we didn't need to do any active renewal until the 30 year MRTA timeframe:

Quote:
The covenants and restrictions of this Declaration shall run with and bind the property, and shall inure to the benefit of and be enforceable by the Developer, the Association or the owner of any property subject to this Declaration, their respective legal representatives, heirs, successors or assigns, for a term of twenty (20) years from the date this Declaration is recorded, after which time said covenants and restrictions shall automatically be extended for successive periods of ten (10) years unless an instrument signed by the then owners of two-thirds (2/3) of the lots has been recorded, agreeing to change or terminate said covenants and restrictions, in whole or in part.
Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
SusanB35 (Idaho)
Posts: 4
Posted:
1965. CCR was 1970 and the notorized document naming successor to the Architectural Com was 1974. Nothing since. The CCRs do state automatic renewal after 25 years and every 10 years after that. They "run with the land". Thank you.
SusanB35 (Idaho)
Posts: 4
Posted:
No complaints. In fact other neighbors have also build shops. No problems but you never know who may move in and cause a problem.
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SusanB35 on 08/02/2017 12:02 PM
No complaints. In fact other neighbors have also build shops. No problems but you never know who may move in and cause a problem.

Don't you mean shed? What does your governing doc's say about erecting out buildings etc? Sounds like a local ordinance issue and your shed has a variance (time.)
GwenG (Florida)
Posts: 669
Posted:
So the renewal is automatic and the authority to establish an ARC was in the original CCR's-sorry I didn't read the automatic renewal correctly. This means the HOA still has authority to establish an ARC and enforce ARC restrictions, as long as the Committee is established per the CCR guidelines. It has been inactive and it was not available to you at the time you sought to install a shop (shed?).

The other poster mentioned having Covenants expire by operation of a Marketable Records Title Act (MRTA) and I do not think that Idaho has one (about 19 states have some form of MRTA).

Your HOA is free to re-establish an ARC but it would not be in anyone's best interest to attempt retroactive enforcement when you sought out and obtained the only available authority which gave you a permit. Owners have apparently not objected to your structure and owners have as much right to enforce the CCR's as an Association does. Owners also have apparently not cared about having an Architectural Committee or they would have re-formed one.

Does this mean a re-formed Committee will not try to enforce a dormant CCR against you? No. HOA's can act irrationally.
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SusanB35 on 08/02/2017 8:05 AM
My community was built in 1965. It is a well kept and a very nice neighborhood. "CCRs run with the land and shall be binding for 25 years from recording after which they will be automatically renewed every 10 years." The latest documents on file are dated April 10 1974 adding a new person to the Architectural Committee. All folks as of this date, that are listed on the Architectural Committee have now passed on. What does it mean if there is no one left and nothing passed on to a new person? Are the CCRs still renewed automatically? About 3 years ago we erected a shop and just went through the city for permits. No one said anything to us about anything then or now....Just trying to gain knowledge here. Thank you for any assistance.

1. Your HOA was established in X month in 1965 and binding for 25 years ... which would be X month in 1990 as end date; however,

2. Your CCR's automatically renew every 10 years which mean renewed X month in 2000, 2010 and will again in 2020.

3. Because it will renew you have an HOA, but one in which nobody has participated sometime after April 10, 1974 when you know for a fact an individual was added to the architectual committee.

4. Yes ... Your CCR's will renew automatically until such time as under your documents and State Laws the owners decide to take action to eliminate and disband the HOA. You potentially need to seek an attorney advice on how to do in your state.

5. Even if HOA continues potentially the shop built should be grandfathered. In my State the HOA has one (1) year to address and take to court any potential violation which is considered "permanent". If someone in my HOA built a shop and if violated the CCR's, if not addressed via the Court in the one year time frame it would be too bad, so sad.

6. Potentially your choices are:

A. Continue with the HOA and automatic renewals as is with everyone ignoring, but keep in mind at some point a person can and has a legal right to establish again a proper HOA with potential dues assessments and CCR enforcements.

B. Before the next automatic renewal all owners (suggest all pitch in for attorney fees to help) can eliminate the HOA from their property titles. If you want to choose this option you might check with an Attorney to see if can just Amend the CCR's now to state that at the time of the future renewal in X month of 2020 the CCR's will become null and void instead of renewing. A change of that nature would potentially take 100% of all owners to agree, so you need to know what others in your neighborhood feel regarding the situation and take steps to Amend your CCR's.

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