Fining Member for Dog Poop

Im new to our Board (Illinois). We have had an ongoing issue between two neighgors (I see correspondence from 2012). Dog owner is sloppy in letting her dogs poop in the other neighbor's yard. Dog owner has received notice from the Board last October of her fine schedule should poop be discovered:
1st fine $100, 2nd fine $250 3rd fine $400 4th fine $500. Since the letter was sent last October - she has been notified of $350 fines.
The Board is relying on the word of the complainer neighbor that the poop was found on his lawn. Police have been called on either side complaining of 'threats', ongoing barking, dog poop over the years. Recently, the Dog owner has retained a lawyer (friend) who sent the Board a letter that we have no proof that her dogs were the culprits. We held a Board meeting to address the issue between the two neighbors giving dog owner the opportunity to appeal. The dog owner didn't show.
What rights do we have to enforce the fines, though we don't have a video or picture of the actual dogs doing their business.

DITTO

Fines work like "speeding tickets" for an HOA. They are not income based. It then becomes a bit tricky to actually enforce them. The law looks at HOA fines differently than not paying dues. If you don't pay dues then you can lien/foreclose. Not paying fines not so much. You really have to look at your state's laws regarding enforcement. They may allow the HOA to lien for them or to sue. Most likely not to foreclose.

If you choose to sue for the fines, understand that your not guaranteed to get the money. That's because the owner can just move and not pay it. The judgement has a period of time where it will expire. Typically around 7 years you have to renew it to go after. The HOA does NOT have the right to one's social security number so garnishing wages if were to win would be difficult without it.

There are some "tricky" accounting tricks that can make fines fall into the lien category. Some HOA's have been known to apply dues to paying off the fine. So when the owner is paying their dues it's going to the fine payoff. Which then makes it look on the books as if they aren't paying dues. That means they can then place a lien for unpaid dues. My opinion on this practice is not too favorable.

I say in this case. The HOA to stay out of it unless you have a rule and a fining schedule item covering this infraction. Otherwise, have animal control involved. Take pictures and maybe even DNA testing. If your HOA really wants to take it this far. Otherwise, you may try this instead of fining: The HOA pays someone to pick up the "presents" and sends the owner the bill. If they don't pay the fee, then the HOA can lien for that amount. Make it a fee that is reasonable like $25 a pick up. The owner will have the option to go pick it up without the fee or pay it. Similar to a fine but it's more enforceable.

Okay I will fess up... I used to try to train my dogs to poop/pee on the Ex-President's yard... The shame! Given all the Crap he gave me, the least I could have done was return the favor... I enforced the "flying middle finger" law used also for right turns...

Enforcement of any violation by the use of fines is tricky and takes lots of legal research. We never used them. Good luck!

Haley asks: "What rights do we have to enforce the fines, though we don't have a video or picture of the actual dogs doing their business."

With others, no rights whatsoever, let the complainant bring evidence to the board and then the board should enforce your fine schedule.

But, wait: The fine schedule is actual HOA policy, right? Not just someone's idea?

Btw, in my HOA (elevator building) the first offense of this violation is a possible $100 fine, subject to doubling every subsequent infraction.

Thanks to all for the Comments.
In our CCRs we state members can own two pets...."provided that they do not create a nuisance, as determined by the Board, nor stray outside the confines of the Owner's Lot unattended."

Also in our Rules and Regs it states "Owners must pick up after their dogs", "No dogs in neighbors yard unless invited".

Do you think this language provides the Board more 'authority' to move forward with the fines.
Also in our Rules and Regs, 'fines incurred are added to the association dues and are subject to the terms outlined in the Paymnent of Association dues.

We only have 17 members -- very small so no fine committee is created.

Exactly, HOW do you come up with that conclusion?

Again Haley ... The association can have "reasonable rules", the problem you have in this instance is you have no PROOF that any particular owner was the one who violated. It potentially could have been someone from outside your small neighborhood walking their dog and allowed it to do take a dump in one of the yards. Without proof you should never have fined anyone. Why do you keep asking if you have the "authority" to move forward with fines when you have stated you have zero proof regarding the violation???

Keep in mind the CCR's are attached to the property titles and will be more easily to uphold in a Court because everyone signed when they purchased their property to abide by those CCR's. Rules and Regulations are implemented by a small handful of owners, essentially the Board without all other owner's approval. Because of that a Court will attack the reasonableness of the rule and there needs to be absolute proof of violating.

I think what Melissa was trying to get across is dues and fines are separate entities. To collect association dues an HOA can place a lien against properties because again is based on a document attached to the property title. Fines are based on a handful of peoples rules as determined by them and in many states you cannot lien against the property for fines. You might want to look at your State laws or discuss with an attorney if you are combining the two together. Some states have been cracking down on this because of owner's in past loosing their homes due to fines. In NV some HOA's were fining people for parking on public streets which is property they did not own. To clarify the issue they passed an HOA law forbidding an HOA with public streets from fining. They pointed out if you do not own the property you cannot regulate the property. Keep in mind laws change ... what might have been allowed when your documents were written might not be allowed now. Smaller HOA's who usually do not have an attorney on retainer handling these things needs to keep abreast of their law changes or consult with an attorney when digging a hole that could lead to a lawsuit.

We are not attorneys and have stated we do not believe you should move forward with the fines based on our experience living and/or serving in HOAs. However, if you want a legal opinion then you need to pay an attorney to obtain one. I would be willing to bet the attorney will tell you the same thing we have, so when you hire one please let us know outcome so it can help others in future.

Keep in mind I do NOT agree with this practice at all. However, in some states/HOA's this practice is possible and done. Fines are supposed to be "Punitive" charges. (Parking, speeding, or traffic violations are also punitive type as examples). They should not be used for the basis of liens/foreclosure of losing ones home. That is for dues and not paying your fair share of what you owe.

Let me put it this way as an example: The bank isn't going to take your car away for not paying your speeding tickets. They take your car away for NOT paying the payments. HOA works the same way. They aren't to take your house away because you violated the rules, they take it away for not paying dues.

What is the difference between a monetary penalty and a fine?

Interesting. Thanks for clarifying that.

We asked or lawyer (very experienced in SC HOA matters) about applying dues monies to fines thus making the dues short and we could foreclose. He said that while it could be done it was fraught with legal problems (as in costly) and an action he would advise against.

NO, in California, we cannot lien or foreclose on fines applied to an account.

I don't believe anyone should have that ability as fines are subjective and in some case quite punitive. In California, a HOA can start the process to foreclose when a balance reaches $1800.00 or the account has been delinquent for more than one year. Let's say you live in one of our urban twin towers and if you rent your unit for a weekend, you can be fined $1000.00 per incidence. Two of these incidences and the HOA could start foreclosure proceeding.

Based on experience, most HOA's don't have separate rules and regulations or a fining schedule, let alone a proper process to enforce.

Still a crappy situation though!

*rim shot*

Sorry... I'll see myself out...

yes, but the OP has NO proof

therefor

the issue will be handled by officer T. Can

(trash can)

See, I KNEW it would soon be a matter of Tauric Ka-Ka

Assuming the homes are 'stand alone fee simple':

This is NOT an association issue.

"My neighbor walks across my lawn" also would NOT be an association issue.

HOWEVER

from: http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia

question:
My dog was on my next door neighbor's property, so he shot her, and later that day we had to put her to sleep. Is there anything we can do?

answer:


The truth IS actually stranger than fiction.

That's the direction I'm trying to get my fellow BOD members to go in as well regarding pet rules. We have a fine for pet waste on our fine schedule, but I've never heard of it being enforced, and our city already regulates it anyway. We do fine for lawn damage as well, but also give owners the option of fixing it themselves (pretty easy to do with just some dirt and grass seed). Weight seems to be the sticking point -- our city only cares about the number and type of pets, not weight, but some homeowners don't think that goes far enough. However, I'll save that for another discussion.

We do have rules & regs about dogs--leashes, etc., but we also would encourage any victim to notify animal control too. They will investigate and they, even more importantly, will have a record of an aggressive dog in the event there's an incident OFF our premises, that is to say, city sidewalks & parks in our urban 'hood.

That's not how it is here, Janet.

Video cameras are cheap nowadays.