Paving costs?

ChrisB4 (West Virginia)
Posts: 175

Posted:

I am in the process of trying to convince other members of the Board that I serve on that we need a fairly radical plan to raise money for the maintenance of our capital assets.

Our community was built in two sections with the oldest half being as old as 10 years and the newest being about 4 years all original paving. The community covers roughly 75-100 acres (pretty rural area), with only 5 being common area. We have virtually no amenities, with the only visible common element being the 2 developer created ponds both with a fountains at the entrance. We have about 3 miles of road with 1 entrance in or out (in other words no through traffic). We are responsible for our roads, though we have almost no sidewalks.

There has been a lot of debate surrounding our roads. I am trying to get some idea of what it's going to cost to resurface them.

When I ask this question I realize that it depends on an awful lot, I'm asking you to indulge me and just tell me your experience.

I'm really just looking for a best case scenario. If someone tells me that if everything were perfect it would only cost $25,000 per mile with a worst case costing twice that, it would give me something to start with. Anything publicly assessable would be great.

Understand as you read this, my community has enough money to pave about 3-5 of the communities 340 driveways (never mind the road), if that tells you anything. In other words with the amount of money we have in reserve we couldn't get a contractor to speak with us never mind do any work for us.

I really need to make a case for a substantial capital reserve fund, but I need something I can cite as fact.

Anyone else had to make this case? Anyone recently had their roads paved? What did it cost? Was there any additional cost due to lack of maintenance? Anything else to add.....?

Thank you.

JoeW1 (New York)
Posts: 728

Posted:

ChrisB4,

I'll look into providing cost specifics later when and or if I still have them. My initial reaction is that 4-10 years is premature to perform paving work other than initial roadway seal coating. That is of course unless your roads are experiencing premature failure. Or if compaction and core tests of the roadways by a qualified engineering firm evidence roadway construction deficiencies by the developer. Are your roads failing prematurely, were the roadway tests I described ever performed?

Funding for the eventual re pavement should have begun from year 1 of the roadway construction. This funding would be based upon a qualified transition engineer's report.

MikeS1
Posts: 668

Posted:

Chris, Some states like Virginia must have a reserve study down every 5 years which should include reserves for this very expensive item. This is a case of pay me know of pay me later. If you don't sealcoat or rejuninate on a regular basis, you'll wind up with cracks in the asphalt, and then it's damaged too badly, you'll have to have the asphalt milled out and replaced at a huge expense. We know - We've been there and had to have a lot of the parking lots milled out. Check out the Jan 2007 Article in Regenis Report. (http://www.regenesis.net/).

When it comes to maintaining the asphalt, there are a couple of schools of thought. Some communities use the water based sealcoat, but I'm sold on PDC (pavement dressing conditioners) or rejuvinators. I'm not going to list the companies names here but they are easy to find on the web and google "pavement rejuvenator". Sealcoats aren't cracked up to be very effective, and I'll never use a latex Driveway sealcoat on my driveway again. When our vendor comes by every 5 years, I'll contract with him to have the PDC applied. If you need more information email me. Our community is 15 years old and we've had this done twice. It really needs to be done more often, but you know how that goes. It's a logistical nightmare.

ChrisB4 (West Virginia)
Posts: 175

Posted:

Joe, thanks for responding....

I'm not suggesting that we pave now. For the most part the roads are holding up well with a few areas that could probably use crack sealant.

The issue is we need to start saving now for work as little as 5-7 years from now. That would make the oldest roads 15-17 years old.

hoatalk (California)
Posts: 603

Posted:

I found this document that may help:
http://www.co.sanmateo.ca.us/bos.dir/BosAgendas/agendas2007/Agenda20070410/20070410_m_29.htm

They mention sealing methods and costs, but they quote wildly different costs. If I read it right, they are saying they can do chip sealing for $25,000/land mile if they do it themselves vs. $400,000/lane mile to hire a contractor. Sounds like a unreal difference to me since no contractor can mark up costs by 16x to get the price! But there's some good info there.

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hoatalk (California)
Posts: 603

Posted:

Here's another quote:
"Almost 500 miles of road resurfacing is done each year on state highways. If the contractual costs for these hundreds of resurfacing projects are averaged over the last 10 years, an average of $ 200,000 per two-lane mile results."

From:
http://search.cga.state.ct.us/dtsearch_lpa.asp?cmd=getdoc&DocId=16641&Index=I%3A%5Czindex%5C1995&HitCount=0&hits=&hc=0&req=&Item=904
-----------------------------
AND ONE MORE:
From:

"For an asphalt trail, resurfacing is required approximately every 15 years at a cost of about 50,000 dollars per mile" <-- Now that's $50,000/mile for a simple trail, not a roadway.
------------------------------

One more consideration is the cost of oil is a big part of asphalt costs, so as the price of oil goes, so goes road costs. Oil is projected to keep rising in price over the next few years.

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ChrisB4 (West Virginia)
Posts: 175

Posted:

One more consideration is the cost of oil is a big part of asphalt costs, so as the price of oil goes, so goes road costs. Oil is projected to keep rising in price over the next few years.

--------

Time to buy stock in concrete?

Thanks for the replies. I look through them soon.

JoeW1 (New York)
Posts: 728

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ChrisB4 on 07/23/2007 4:18 PM
Joe, thanks for responding....

I'm not suggesting that we pave now. For the most part the roads are holding up well with a few areas that could probably use crack sealant.

The issue is we need to start saving now for work as little as 5-7 years from now. That would make the oldest roads 15-17 years old.

Hi ChrisB4 - I did understand your post to mean you wish to start saving now, and not to pave now. I also fully empathize with your situation. This may be much more than you are asking for but here goes:

Our private roadways are typical HOA construction in the northeast tri-state area of the country. We have an entrance and exit that opens up to two lanes and is 31,142 square yards. Construction of our roadways is very different than the sectional consistency and compaction of highways mind you. I would not base etimates for replacement of HOA roadways upon highway construction costs.

*****None of thedollar figures below account for inflation.******

My HOA's capital reserve replacement analysis has the the roadway quantity at 31,142, typcial expected useful life at 15 years, estimated cost per unit of measure is $12.40 per square yard or $386,161.00.

Roadway seal coat has a typical expected useful life of 5 years at an estimated cost per unit of measure at $1.20 per square yard or $37,370.40.

We've been told our roadways are 2 miles long. There's no way to calculate miles to square yards but it seems based upon our engineers square yard measurements that we now have a correlation. Let's roll with that, however you'll have to get an engineering firm to take measurements for your HOA's 3 miles of roadway. If we roll with my HOA's numbers, your roadways would be estimated at 46,713 square yards, rather than our 31,142. Since it costs us $386,161.00 to pave, it would cost $193,080.50 per mile, and your cost would then be $386,161.00 plus $193,080.50 or $579,241.50.

If my HOA's estimates were to apply to your roadways, below would be a funding scenario.

PAVING SCHEDULE
Roadways 10 years old in 2007 - 5 years remaining to fund $579,241.50, which equals $115,848.30 per year, or $340.73 per unit per year (if your costs are divisible by 340 units).
Roadways 4 years old in 2007 - 11 years remaining to fund $579,241.50, which equals $52,658.32 per year, or $154.88 per unit per year (if your costs are divisible by 340 unit).

SEAL COAT SCHEDULE
Roadways 10 years old in 2007 - 5 years remaining to fund $56,055.60, which equals $11,211.12 per year, or $32.97 per unit per year (if your costs are divisible by 340 units).
Roadways 4 years old in 2007 - 1 year remaining to fund $56,055.60, which equals $56,055.60 per year, or $164.87 per unit per year (if your costs are divisible by 340 units).
Roadways 4 years old in 2007 - 5 years remaining to fund $56,055.60 after the first seal coat in 2008, which equals $5,095.96 per year, or $14.99 per unit per year (if your costs are divisible by 340 units).

Your HOA may opt not to seal coat in 2008 therefore reducing the amount necessary per unit to fund the schedules above. The dollar figures above don't necessarily translate to assessments. Perhaps your HOA Board can be creative withing the budgets and transfer discretionary spending to these schedules to offset some of the necessary costs to pave and seal coat. This should give you a sense of the costs if your HOA was located in my northeast tri-state area. In that event your scenario would be a paving costs of $579,241.50 and seal coat of $56,055.60. Your HOA Board does not have the luxury of opting out of the necessary funding to perform roadway paving or seal coat, whatever the costs may be.

Good Luck!! JoeW1

ChrisB4 (West Virginia)
Posts: 175

Posted:

WOW!

Joe, that was awesome!!

Thanks a lot for taking the time to put all that together. I have been running with some really conservative numbers. Your numbers are twice what mine are, and believe me I had very little to base it on.

I live about an hour west of Baltimore MD, and having lived in Mass and Maine I know roads in that area don't last quite as long.

Even if our roads will last 5 years longer and you were off by as much as 50% in your calculations (not that I'm suggesting you are), we have some serious saving to do!!

This is exactly what I need to get the other members of the Board concerned and get some money to authorize a serious reserve study.

Thanks again for taking the time to type all that out!

Chris

JoeW1 (New York)
Posts: 728

Posted:

ChrisB4 - One very important thing is that the schedules I presented represent aggressive funding. Many associations will set aside over the course of each year what's called a threshold of the total estimated replacement costs (ERC) of the common elements. There's no set rule of the percentage threshold but it's usually a Board choice of 5 - 10% of the total ERC. Depends on your By-Laws and the powers of the Board to allocate.

The total ERC is more than just the paving and seal coating. In your case it would be water features and any other common elements. If your HOA had been setting aside say 5% of a total ERC of $1,000,000 for a period of 10 years in the reserve account you would have $500,000.00 already set aside if no other reserve expenses occurred during that time to deplete the $500,000.00. You would also have gained $21,165.00 in earned interest at 4%.

IMHO, the best thing you can do is present the schedules as based upon the estimated replacement costs from a very qualified transition engineer's report for a Northeast gated community with apprx. 220 units that make up an HOA with two miles of roadway. If you can get your own engineer's report of a capital reserve replacement analysis out of all this you will have accomplished something great. Even if no one will sober up to the reality of the results.

Keep me posted, I'd like to know what results.

Best of Luck! JoeW1

PaulM (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 1,347

Posted:

ChrisB4: I don't read in your initial post that your community has had a capital reserve study done on the cost of repair/replacement of your capital assets. Without the use of a professional study at least as a REFERENCE, how can one personally gauge what it may cost?

Are you considering having a study done? It is only in this way you can begin to make your case for a substantial capital reserve fund. It is unfortunate that for as long as 10 years your community/Board has not seen the need to fund what will surely be a forthcoming expense.

PaulM (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 1,347

Posted:

Chris: one other thought for you...you state you need "to make a case for a substantial capital reserve fund, but I need something I can cite as fact."

Your "FACT" is your CC&R, official documents, which dictate that the assn. is to set up a capital reserve fund and should list those capital assets the assn. is responsible to maintain. Also refer to your state's Planned Community act or Condo act; that will also point to having a fund and that monies are to be part of the assessment fee.

ChrisB4 (West Virginia)
Posts: 175

Posted:

You guys all have to understand that I know all of this. The need for a reserve study (which has never been done). The need to have a plan to fund capital expenditures, and the obligation of the BOD to make plans to fund and do repairs that homeowners expect.

I have just been elected to my Board (VP). Prior to that I was on the By-Laws committee where we re-wrote our horribly inadequate By-Laws. There I addressed the need for a capital reserve. I convinced the committee to write in that the BOD would be required to come up with the capital reserve study within 90 days of the passage of the new By-Laws (and some other stuff on how to maintain the fund over the years). The board, at the time, held a meeting where people complained they didn't want to pay thousands of dollars for the study and the BOD backed down.

I will continue to aggressively pursue a capital reserve study. One of the problems I'm faced with is our dues have not been raised enough in the past 5 years ($3-$5 a month) to fund a large study and our budget is running pretty low (though I know an assessment to cover the cost may be the only solution). To be honest I really don't have a grasp on the cost. I'm thinking between $7-$15k....But I really have no idea other than what I have seen that other communities have paid.....
Any insight here?

Thanks.

JoeW1 (New York)
Posts: 728

Posted:

ChrisB4 - Your Scope of Work for the study needs to include, but not limited to, a physical inspection of the property to document deficiencies in construction of all the common elements the HOA is to maintain and replace. And as you know a Capital Reserve Replacement Analysis (CRRA) should provide a unit of measurement for each common element, unit cost of replacement, expected life span/cycle, date of construction, remaining years in expected life span/cycle. A CRRA should have a total estimated replacement cost (ERC). The Board will need to develop a funding goal with a minimum amount that should always be in the reserve account at all times. This Scope of Work, outline, must be submitted to at least three engineering firms for them to bid upon. The Board must vote to hire one of them.

As for people complaining about thousands of dollars spent, you will have to overcome this hurdle by explaining the Board does not have the luxury of not protecting their assets. The Board consists of neighbors that are fiduciaries and are obligated by law to fund for the maintenance and replacement of the elements and to do this a professional engineer's report must be the basis to accomplish this. End of story, no negotiation.

ChrisB4 (West Virginia)
Posts: 175

Posted:

Joe,

Thanks again for the reply. I have worked pretty hard convincing my current board of what you just said. I take these posts to them as evidence that I'm not the only one that feels this way. This stuff really helps.

Thanks again.

Chris

ChrisB4 (West Virginia)
Posts: 175

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JoeW1 on 07/23/2007 7:32 PM

Posted By ChrisB4 on 07/23/2007 4:18 PM
Joe, thanks for responding....

I'm not suggesting that we pave now. For the most part the roads are holding up well with a few areas that could probably use crack sealant.

The issue is we need to start saving now for work as little as 5-7 years from now. That would make the oldest roads 15-17 years old.

Hi ChrisB4 - I did understand your post to mean you wish to start saving now, and not to pave now. I also fully empathize with your situation. This may be much more than you are asking for but here goes:

Our private roadways are typical HOA construction in the northeast tri-state area of the country. We have an entrance and exit that opens up to two lanes and is 31,142 square yards. Construction of our roadways is very different than the sectional consistency and compaction of highways mind you. I would not base etimates for replacement of HOA roadways upon highway construction costs.

*****None of thedollar figures below account for inflation.******

My HOA's capital reserve replacement analysis has the the roadway quantity at 31,142, typcial expected useful life at 15 years, estimated cost per unit of measure is $12.40 per square yard or $386,161.00.

Roadway seal coat has a typical expected useful life of 5 years at an estimated cost per unit of measure at $1.20 per square yard or $37,370.40.

We've been told our roadways are 2 miles long. There's no way to calculate miles to square yards but it seems based upon our engineers square yard measurements that we now have a correlation. Let's roll with that, however you'll have to get an engineering firm to take measurements for your HOA's 3 miles of roadway. If we roll with my HOA's numbers, your roadways would be estimated at 46,713 square yards, rather than our 31,142. Since it costs us $386,161.00 to pave, it would cost $193,080.50 per mile, and your cost would then be $386,161.00 plus $193,080.50 or $579,241.50.

If my HOA's estimates were to apply to your roadways, below would be a funding scenario.

PAVING SCHEDULE
Roadways 10 years old in 2007 - 5 years remaining to fund $579,241.50, which equals $115,848.30 per year, or $340.73 per unit per year (if your costs are divisible by 340 units).
Roadways 4 years old in 2007 - 11 years remaining to fund $579,241.50, which equals $52,658.32 per year, or $154.88 per unit per year (if your costs are divisible by 340 unit).

SEAL COAT SCHEDULE
Roadways 10 years old in 2007 - 5 years remaining to fund $56,055.60, which equals $11,211.12 per year, or $32.97 per unit per year (if your costs are divisible by 340 units).
Roadways 4 years old in 2007 - 1 year remaining to fund $56,055.60, which equals $56,055.60 per year, or $164.87 per unit per year (if your costs are divisible by 340 units).
Roadways 4 years old in 2007 - 5 years remaining to fund $56,055.60 after the first seal coat in 2008, which equals $5,095.96 per year, or $14.99 per unit per year (if your costs are divisible by 340 units).

Your HOA may opt not to seal coat in 2008 therefore reducing the amount necessary per unit to fund the schedules above. The dollar figures above don't necessarily translate to assessments. Perhaps your HOA Board can be creative withing the budgets and transfer discretionary spending to these schedules to offset some of the necessary costs to pave and seal coat. This should give you a sense of the costs if your HOA was located in my northeast tri-state area. In that event your scenario would be a paving costs of $579,241.50 and seal coat of $56,055.60. Your HOA Board does not have the luxury of opting out of the necessary funding to perform roadway paving or seal coat, whatever the costs may be.

Good Luck!! JoeW1

Joe,

One question...Is this for total replacement? Or is this for overlay on top of existing roadway? I think 2" overlay is pretty standard....

Chris

JoeW1 (New York)
Posts: 728

Posted:

ChrisB4 - It is for total replacement. You talk about overlay but to what sectional thickness? How do you not create a problem where the sewer grates, manhole covers, curb height, increased runoff due to height differential aren't affected, in other words, how do you maintain an even grade? Additionally, how do you not just pave over an existing problem? The method is to remove the pavement to the lower course, wear course or even base course and repave to the pre-existing grade level.

PaulM (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 1,347

Posted:

ChrisB4: Not sure I agree that a valid engineering study would cost as high as you have quoted. You only have to have it gauged by the actual capital assets & mileage THE ASSN. is responsible to repair & maintain, not the entire full acreage of your community.

Also, have you thought about going to your local municipal office to speak to the engineer there about who they could recommend for a study? They could also alert you to other communities in the area who have used engineering companies for this purpose.

ChrisB4 (West Virginia)
Posts: 175

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JoeW1 on 07/24/2007 1:03 PM
ChrisB4 - It is for total replacement. You talk about overlay but to what sectional thickness? How do you not create a problem where the sewer grates, manhole covers, curb height, increased runoff due to height differential aren't affected, in other words, how do you maintain an even grade? Additionally, how do you not just pave over an existing problem? The method is to remove the pavement to the lower course, wear course or even base course and repave to the pre-existing grade level.

I'm a computer nerd, I don't know much about pavement, except what I have read on the net. I think your suggesting that simply paving on top of pavement is not an entirely viable solution? Don't the have machines that "eat" the pavement down, then you can pave back over that? Is that what your talking about?

Our pavement as a whole doesn't look that bad, at least from a layman's perspective. We have a few small trouble spots, but it's my understanding that you should repave long before you see trouble. If you wait till then I've read it can be too late.

So the question is, the quote your posting here was to have the pavement remove to it's base and re-done? If so, was the decision to go to the base as a result of neglect?

Thanks again,

Chris

ChrisB4 (West Virginia)
Posts: 175

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PaulM on 07/24/2007 3:06 PM
ChrisB4: Not sure I agree that a valid engineering study would cost as high as you have quoted. You only have to have it gauged by the actual capital assets & mileage THE ASSN. is responsible to repair & maintain, not the entire full acreage of your community.

Also, have you thought about going to your local municipal office to speak to the engineer there about who they could recommend for a study? They could also alert you to other communities in the area who have used engineering companies for this purpose.

We have roads, piping, ponds, small area (townhouses) with sidewalks. My thought is there is a record kept with the county that most likely contains the inventory of the capital assets. So my thought would just be to put that into the hands of an engineer and have him estimate useful life.

JoeW1 (New York)
Posts: 728

Posted:

ChrisB4 - The decision to go to the base was not a result of neglect. It was the recommendation of the transition engineer. Our roadways are apprx. 3 years old. Date of construction is 2004, the remaining useful life is 13 years.

JoeW1 (New York)
Posts: 728

Posted:

ChrisB4 - A physical inspection of the property needs to be conducted by the engineer. The engineer should, I repeat should request what's called "as built" plans. Those are plans submitted to the borough or town of what was actually constructed vs. the pre-approved construction plans the developer had to submit to the borough or town before the commencement of construction. At least that's the way it works here in the northeast. You must define and refine your Scope of Work the Analysis Includes. This indicates the process undertaken as part of the engineer's evaluation. Our engineering firm besides specifying scopes of work by CAI standards (update with and without site visits and full studies) also indicates if the Association requested quantity measurement of the common elements (field measurements as opposed to using quantities given in existing documentation), other inspections (i.e. roof or siding inspections, moisture testing, etc.), and if the analysis is being performed as part of a Trnasition Engineering Evaluation. An analysis of all the elements you describe must be performed so you know how much to fund, when to expect the replacement to occur barring no premature failure, and dificiences of those elements. Sidewalk concrete in our HOA has a typical expected useful life span of 30 years at $9.80 per square foot. How many square feet of concrete are your sidewalks?

BarneyC
Posts: 50

Posted:

I'd suggest that you get a real paving contractor to give you some rough estimates. The cost of large projects is must less than a small project. If you have a small driveway, for example, the equipment still has to be rented and moved. As the project grows, the costs become less. Plus contractors want big jobs, so they'll give you a deal.

As an example, refinishing wood floors is typically $3/sqft in my area. I had 2200 sqare ft refinished, with some fairly substantial repairs, for $4000 even. Now do you think $4000 is a mathematically calculated figure? Three's a lot of wiggle in large project pricing. Using a per square yard number interpolated to miles isn't sound. The number used for a small driveway and a long road can't possible be even remotely similar.

PaulM (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 1,347

Posted:

ChrisB4:
To repeat, the Assn. is only responsible for the capital assets as DICTATED IN YOUR OFFICIAL DECLARATION DOCUMENT, as it reads presently. Refer to Article X, Section 10.2, Maintenance Obligations of Association. It should list specifically, or words to the effect...the Association shall maintain the Common Facilities, which shall include.....

The county record holds the Declaration as well, and therein lies exactly what the Association is responsible for. You want to request a study done on THESE (only) ASSETS, whereby the cost will be determined (over a 10-15-20 yr period, whatever the study shows as life expectancy) to become part of the newly increased assessment fee to cover.

JasonP5 (Maryland)
Posts: 2

Posted:

This is really very nice.. Thanks for the information..

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Jason,

Welcome to the forum. It's best to start a new topic then reactivating old topics.

Tim