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JohnH56 (Georgia)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Hello all, in an attempt to not follow posting rules...I looking for advice or even recommendations within the Georgia area. Preferably not Atlanta area, if possible. I'm located approx 120 miles south Atlanta. I am simply looking for "legal advice" regarding the current HoA BoD(me, along with others) that have issues with the previous BoD and the managing company. Let me paint a overall picture. The Developer recently released control over this subdivision the Homeowners (me) officially now are in control of the HoA. The New Board chose to end our business relationship with the managing company that has been in place since the birth of the sub-division. And the reason we ended our relationship is we/the entire neighborhood was simply satisfied with their services. Now all the accounting has been turned-over its even worse in our "opinion". I'm simply looking for a legal opinion to see if anything of our concerns is worth the effort of libel or whatever. My problem is I been dong all kinds of cold calls and its just coming up empty. I'm thinking real estate and/or contract type lawyers but I've been hitting dead ends. So any help/recommendations would be much appreciated. Also, as to not break the "Posting rules" I assume one can email me with actual recommendations and not post that particular info in the thread. I hope one can simply click my profile to get that email as it should be available. Sorry, very new to this forum. Hopefully, that is the way to properly request such type of info.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
John,

One would have to post their email in a thread. Others do not have access to your profile.

As for lawyer options, contact the local BAR Association.

Libel is a published false statement that is damaging to a person's reputation. I don't think you would have standing for such a claim if you were not the target of any published statement.

Keep in mind that it is typical to change MC after turnover from the Declarant.
The Board is also allowed to make mistakes.

It sounds like you have a specific issue vs. you liked the old MC.
If you care to share, the members of this site may be able to offer opinions on various options. They won't be legal opinion.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
You do not want a Real Estate lawyer. Your NOT dealing with Real Estate here. A HOA is a corporation of which your a member. You may want a general attorney or a specialist in HOA's. It depends on the subject matter at hand. However, it's ALWAYS best to deal with your HOA from WITHIN the system NOT outside it. There are rules and processes in place in every HOA that should allow one to address their issues or make changes. It just takes work and majority of supporters.

Changing Management companies is pretty typical during a transition from developer to owner owned. The money supply has changed and many other factors that weren't there before. Developer is not there to cushion any short falls. The HOA is ONLY being funded by the owners for the owners now. It most likely did not have the same burdens or same relationship with the MC.

It's best to deal with one issue at a time. We are NOT lawyers here nor do we represent ourselves as lawyers. We give free advice to those who could use it. It comes from years of experience and some hard learning. Feel free to ask us questions on how best to address your situation.

Everyone hates it when I state this: Suing your HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors. So take that under consideration before running off to a lawyer to file suit. Most of the time the power to make changes in your HOA is in your hands or your neighbors...

Former HOA President
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
John

What are the issues you see?

JohnH56 (Georgia)
Posts: 10
Posted:
RESPOND TO TimB4: Sorry, base on your reply you misunderstand my issue and that's my fault. I have to correct a word in my original statement "Libel" (Too bad I can't edit my original post). It's not the word I needed. Not sure why I even wrote "Libel". To clarify my/our basic issue. I/we were completely unhappy with the service the MC provided. As I/we constantly wrote emails informing of them of the items not looked after. I/we was/were completely ignored, I/we also courtesy-copied the actual BoD/developers in many of our concerns...to very little and no response. And let me be clear the "Developer/BoD" never attended an annual meeting (is the typical? honestly I don't know) They are the owners of this land. And yes I understand its not unusual for developers being board members of a sub-division they originated. I have never met that BoD and I have attended 90% of the annual meetings that was a minimum requirement the CM was required to have. In past years, Nov was the month it was held, notifications were sent out Oct. When I did get a notification in Sep I inquired with the CM, no response for about a week. I inquired again, still no response. Just before Thanksgiving I get a response. Stating they will schedule one for Dec 2016. It didn't happen, 2016 annual meeting happened in Feb of 2017. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

The only people that attended the annual meeting was homeowners (like myself) and the CM...never the Developer/BoD/Declarant(all the same, just-in-case, it needs to be stated).

So for clarity sake;
1) I do/did not want to violate posting rules.
2) It's not a matter of change of MC after turnover by the Declarant.
3) It's not a matter of the BoD, which was the declarant(s) making mistakes. They were non-existent.
4) I do not have a specific issue vs. I liked the old MC. I/we had many issues with the old MC. I/we chose to end our business relationship the the old & only MC, unanimously.

And no I do not want share anymore than I have too. As my/our issues are not for others, this only concerns my own neighborhood. Of course, I will share with a lawyer all my/our concerns/issues. One of 2 things will happen. The legal advice will be yes, you folks have a legitimate complaint or no its not worth your time as it would cost XXX and be tied-up in the court because of XXX. I've been searching contractor/realtor lawyers with no success. But I will take your advice with the local Bar Association.
JohnH56 (Georgia)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 07/22/2017 3:00 PM
You do not want a Real Estate lawyer. Your NOT dealing with Real Estate here. A HOA is a corporation of which your a member. You may want a general attorney or a specialist in HOA's. It depends on the subject matter at hand. However, it's ALWAYS best to deal with your HOA from WITHIN the system NOT outside it. There are rules and processes in place in every HOA that should allow one to address their issues or make changes. It just takes work and majority of supporters.

Changing Management companies is pretty typical during a transition from developer to owner owned. The money supply has changed and many other factors that weren't there before. Developer is not there to cushion any short falls. The HOA is ONLY being funded by the owners for the owners now. It most likely did not have the same burdens or same relationship with the MC.

It's best to deal with one issue at a time. We are NOT lawyers here nor do we represent ourselves as lawyers. We give free advice to those who could use it. It comes from years of experience and some hard learning. Feel free to ask us questions on how best to address your situation.

Everyone hates it when I state this: Suing your HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors. So take that under consideration before running off to a lawyer to file suit. Most of the time the power to make changes in your HOA is in your hands or your neighbors...

Thanks for your reply; side note, I hate the fact I can't edit my posts. After I reread them with fresh eyes, I see my mistakes and it changes the point of my inquiry/question. And I need to make this corrections regarding the intent of my request.

Keep this in reference when reading any of my posts here; I/we (the entire board) are completely new to running an actual HoA. If experience included longevity and neighborhood involvement, that would be myself and the president. We were allowed to create a "Steering Committee" by the original BoD/developers. Essentially, we were liaisons between the BoD, neighborhood concerns & the managing company (MC). I've seen this sub-division grow from approx 30 homes (2007) to present day/Jul 2017, approx 155. We should max out to just under 180 if/when all plots are sold. The CM was required to visit our subdivision at a minimum once a month and due their duties. Check out common areas, enforce by-laws, etc... and all the things CM's do to include the accounting aspect. Hence the crux of my request here.

There is quite of bit moving parts in getting our HoA up and running as a Corporation and that in-itself is for another thread. I'm attempting to keep on-topic in this thread.

-Current situation: newly formed BoD, which I am the VP, lots of records have been turned over to us in no particular order from the old MC, a box of old files & a couple of CDs.
--I now had 3 or so weeks to review & I'm no-where near done. But just looking over the most recent financial statements(present/Jun 2017 back to 2015) has given me a clearer view of how much we have been paying for services that pretty much has been non-existent. Did we get financial statements during annual meets...yes, and that was pretty much in a excel-type of format. Some of it pretty self-explanatory, and some of it not so much. When questioning the CM regarding the not-so-understandable parts it was pretty much glossed over and just became frustrating, it was as the idiom goes, "pulling teeth". All the CM seems they were doing was taking our dues. There was no annual meeting in 2016. I personally sent many emails to request/questioning when the the 2016 annual meeting was going to happen. It eventually, happened in Feb 2017.

And there's just too much for me to go into here and it may seem very subjective vs objective (and this is were the lawyer come in for "do I/we have a case). The one thing I can say more than 50% were unhappy, I know...I and the president was constantly questioned by neighbors about the on-goings of the MC. We constantly reminded them we have no power, nor leverage here. We are homeowners just as they. And we were simply liaisons, so please send emails/concerns to our CM manager, which changed just about yearly. I did request to be courtesy-copied...don't think that ever happened, at least the courtesy-copy part.

In a nutshell, its not about suing my own HoA. Its about the new existing HoA/BoD Members/homeowners suing the "developers & the previous managing company" of let's say; dereliction, lack-of-fiduciary duties, ect...along those lines. Hence, the lawyers...is this even worth it...or should I/we be happy and with what we got so far in this turn over? Can I drop it, and its not a complete lost. We've gotten some funds. Which, in my opinion is more than enough to get on track and ready for 2018...mind you that's from a monetary standpoint, not a BoD viewpoint. But that's for another thread.

Also, I have to state; I don't want to mislead; as I feel like a have a bit of an opposite problem regarding all this. The homeowners are nowhere near as involved as this post may lead one to believe. Reference this setting of past years as the my being the "Steering Committee"; As far as I can tell, no one but myself and the president ever wrote to the developer or MC. We typically got the brunt of complaints; why is this.../when are our dues going to be reduced/can you do something about the speeding/etc. And as the "Steering Committee" we truly attempted to address all these concerns. But anytime we announced a meeting a very small percentage would show...we even asked the community the best time to get together, bit few more did attend still could be a larger attendance base on the size of our neighborhood. And during the MC annual meet, attendance was dismal. Myself the president and maybe 5-10 other families would be in attendance. I've never seen more than 20 families represented at the MC annual meet. And yes we have some rental homes and yes with my now current view we do have homeowners behind on annual dues.

Unfortunately/fortunately, I feel as though I have to try. I simply feel wronged and the existing board is nowhere near as motivated as I am in pursuing this...sure, they say go for it, but I'm the only one making inquires...I figured, as the longest member of this neighborhood, I would only get them involved if it goes anywhere.

One last note; at the risk of being slightly off-topic: the number one compliant/question is: when are dues going to be reduced. This subdivision was originated in 2007. I moved in 2007 there were approx 30 homes, today Jul 2017 there are well over 150 homes. And this wasn't a 30 homes in 2007 and all of the sudden in 2017 we have over 150 homes. It has been a very gradual growth over the years. And we are still paying the same dues. You can imagine how off-put I get when questioned by other homeowners about dues. I ask when they moved in, many times the answer is 2014/2015. And here's the typical conversation: "'They' said our dues will be reduced as this neighbor grows." I ask, who is 'they'? I never get an answer to the mysterious 'they'. I don't disagree, but it seem folks seem I/we at that time had something to do with this. And I have to remind folks I am also, a volunteer. I get absolutely nothing out of this, there is no spin here. My only light in this tunnel is, I want to live in a decent neighborhood and I do not want my neighborhood to be one that demonized. Unfortunately, it that seems to be the consensuses when researching HoAs...but I digress. And yes this is always asked at every MC annual meeting answered with some convoluted answer. Is this normal in our situation, developer owned?

I did get this statement in an email recently from the MC during this turnover;
CONTRACT: MC(I removed the actual company name) started before 1st ground breaking in 2007, contract was signed in 2007 with developer – cannot re-sign until after turnover

I take it, it simply means the BoD/Developer could not change "managing companies" until now. Since, we've been giving control. Still does address why our dues have not been reduce accordingly as our neighborhood grew. Though, since I have a much deeper view of the accounting, I can make some assumptions. Unfortunately, it does not seem its related to fiduciary budgeting, more like egregious spending. But, I have not run the numbers to a point where I can definitively say. But, my overall look is pretty spot on. I've identified many budgetary items to the why's & what's to the BoD and my banking numbers are pretty much in line as to the monies received, thus far. As I mentioned, the new BoD we have a ways to go. Our treasurer does account type work. I'm familiar with that actual job position where they work. That's main reason we elected this person and they willfully accepted. And have yet take the time to go over financials, still waiting for the financial overview from the treasurer. We all have the same exact info...but again that's for another thread.
JohnH56 (Georgia)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Hello to all that has responded. Let me first apologize if I have offended anyone. As I was reviewing this thread, again reading through it with fresh eyes. My reply to TimB4 may have sounded a bit offensive, off-putting, negative. This was not my intention. I'm so wrapped in the posting "rules", the stress of attempting to run an HoA the legally & ethically, simply doing the right thing by all the BoD and homeowners. And the original issue I was attempting to convey within this thread in the first place. My response may have a tone of arrogance. And again I sincerely apologize. Hopefully, my response post to MelissaP1 has more clarity. Thanks all for taking the time to respond, its much appreciated.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnH56 on 07/24/2017 10:39 AM

the number one compliant/question is: when are dues going to be reduced.

I am going to be real honest with you.

It is highly unlikely that your assessments will be reduced - ever.

In fact, once turn over (control of the Association from developer to homeowners) occurs, it's more likely that the assessments will go up. This is because developers tend to keep assessments artificially low to entice buyers.

Until the Association (homeowner control board) completes a reserve study, bids out for services (trash, landscape, etc.), decides on hiring or not hiring a management company, obtains insurance and obtains legal counsel (on retainer or pay as needed) they simply won't know what amount of assessments are needed. Once that is known (mainly due to funding reserves) expect assessments to rise.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Lawyers are not counselors nor are they reliable to give you the best solution. They do what they are told. Just like the MC does what they are told to do. They are a contractor to the HOA. So understand the relationships you are to have with various entities in your HOA. A HOA lawyer is NOT anyone's PERSONAL lawyer. They work for the HOA as a whole. Contact with them should be limited and with a designated representative from your board. Preferably the President or other officer. This will keep costs down and keep things on a more even keel.

I would come here to ask questions. We are free and are NOT lawyers. However, we have been where you are in many cases here. That's why many of us are here. We did not have this support or anyone to give us advice. Take a breath and tackle one thing at a time. You can't do it all.

Remembers don't use a Real Estate attorney if your going to consult one. Be careful of lawyers who don't give you options. If they say "I will do what you tell me to do" should raise a flag. Correspondence by phone, email, text, or other methods can be charged. So find out what they charge for communications or services. You do NOT need a lawyer on "Retainer". Most legal issues HOA's need lawyers for is for filing liens/foreclosures. Running to a lawyer at every threat of a lawsuit is wasting time and money. If your going to get sued you have options. Such as counter-suing or filing with insurance.

So come here and ask questions. That's what we are here for.

Former HOA President
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
I would recommend taking everything and running ... unless there are costly development issues that would cost the HOA many tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to fix because developer did not properly install. Other minor items will cost more in legal fees than just taking care of the issue.

As Tim noted dues generally do not go down. Until your HOA makes an Assessment regarding costs to maintain your "common area" property and putting money into reserve account you then can make a better judgment on how much to charge for dues. I have had local HOA's end up lowering dues after they have accumulated more than enough money in their reserve accounts to cover future estimated large expenditures. However, this is rare and usually because has been well managed for a period of time to reach that point. However, that same HOA has members who question why they pay more than a neighboring similar HOA ... answer ... because they are smaller and do not have as many more homes contributing for the costs. If HOAs are maintaining similar common areas then a smaller HOA will need higher dues compared to a similar larger HOA in order to have similar amounts in the bank to pay for the similar common areas.

My new HOA raised everyone's dues slightly because in past they had no reserve account. The increase is to fund the reserve account and maybe in future after fully funded we can lower back down slightly with less needed to fund depending on future costs and needs.

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