HOA Announced 100% Collection of Dues and Assessments

Started by ChesterB • 99 replies • 4030 views

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ChesterB
Posts: 63

Posted:

Below is a recent situation occurring in my association that I thought was interesting to share on this forum.

The annual meeting for my Association occurred about 3 weeks ago. The Board announced that no member was in arrears on dues and assessments. Apparently this hasn't happened in my Association in decades.

I believe the main reason is a fairly recently enacted county health code rule. My Association owns and operates the sanitary sewer for our rural subdivision. A four-county governing body oversees only code compliance with the sanitary sewer by inspecting it once every 2 years or so. They are not involved in maintenance or setting and collection of fees. However, this governing body stated that the Association may disconnect owners homes from the sewer who have not paid their fees for sewer maintenance...and the County will condemn the home if there is no sewer service connected to the home. This prompted a few of the owners in arrears to remit all of the payments owed to the Association.

Kudos to the Board who researched this and found out the applicable code relating to the sewer.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144

Posted:

Interesting. I would be surprised if cutting off sewer service was legal.

I know a HOA member cannot argue successfully in court: I am not receiving the services the HOA gov docs promise, so I am not going to pay my assessment.

The converse here would be something like: The owner is not paying the required assessment, so the HOA is not obliged to provide sewer services.

I think a HOA can cut off amenities, like pool use, for money owed. But cutting off sewer service, without any due process, seems like a whole other category of penalty. It may be over the top.

ChesterB
Posts: 63

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 07/04/2017 8:52 AM
Interesting. I would be surprised if cutting off sewer service was legal.

I know a HOA member cannot argue successfully in court: I am not receiving the services the HOA gov docs promise, so I am not going to pay my assessment.

The converse here would be something like: The owner is not paying the required assessment, so the HOA is not obliged to provide sewer services.

I think a HOA can cut off amenities, like pool use, for money owed. But cutting off sewer service, without any due process, seems like a whole other category of penalty. It may be over the top.

I thought the same as you but the Board had the applicable code at the meeting. I didn't read it myself. But the result was all members are up to date on their fees.

GwenG (Florida)
Posts: 669

Posted:

AugustinD: I agree with you. Sewer services is an essential health service and I doubt that a county has a vote and can "take" a home just because the inhabitant failed to pay HOA fees. The County's agreement is with the HOA-not the individual homeowner. If the County wants a voice, revoke the Agreement with the HOA and the sewer plant can be turned over to a governmental entity (and the public domain) and regulated by the Public Service Commission.

Chester: do I correctly remember reading on another thread that your HOA is expired and thus would have no authority to enforce payment of assessment fees?

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

...and the County will condemn the home if there is no sewer service connected to the home.

The 'county' is taking nothing.

It would be condemning/closing a structure which is unfit for human occupation.

The owner of said structure is free to bring it up to code by providing sanitary waste facilities as per applicable code.

GwenG (Florida)
Posts: 669

Posted:

Parsing words

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

To parse a word means to analyze it into component morphemes. Recall that morphemes are the smallest units in a language that link a form with a meaning or function. Parsing is generally done on complex words that came from Latin and Greek.

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

mor·pheme.

a meaningful morphological unit of a language that cannot be further divided (e.g., in, come, -ing, forming incoming).

•a morphological element considered with respect to its functional relations in a linguistic system.

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

Take and Condemn are, in fact, different words with different meanings.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Say, Chester, how about the exact language, county code number, etc., for us skeptics.

ChesterB
Posts: 63

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 07/04/2017 11:43 AM
Say, Chester, how about the exact language, county code number, etc., for us skeptics.

Well something prompted the delinquent owners to pay up. At the meeting, the secretary/treasurer announced this at the annual meeting. He had a 3-ring binder open to a document which I assumed was the code he was referring to. Like I said I didn't read it myself. I have no reason to doubt this person. Are you skeptical of the interpretation? When my dispute was going on, the Association threatened to disconnect my home from the sewer. My husband contacted the 4-county governing body which is a branch of the County Health Department if the Association could do this. The director at that time said "absolutely not."

The Association has repeatedly sued these delinquent owners in small claims court. The owners never show up so the Association wins the judgment by default. I am unaware if the Association liens the property or not. It's certainly possible but until this new scenario came up, the Association did not foreclose on the lien.

So as I said before, something prompted the delinquent owners to pay up. I will do an internet search to see if I can find the County or State code. I will post it if I can find it. Be patient because I'm not exactly sure how to start this type of search.

ChesterB
Posts: 63

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 07/04/2017 11:43 AM
Say, Chester, how about the exact language, county code number, etc., for us skeptics.

I guess you will have remain a skeptic. I couldn't find my county health codes or Iowa state codes online addressing this issue. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I'm not going to continue to search.

I was just posting what I thought was an interesting event that came up at our annual meeting. I didn't know I was going to have to verify the details.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Right or not, it worked.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

There've been discussions about disconnecting this or that or halting trash pickup or master fire insurance for delinquent owners on this forum. Yes, it's been quite a while, I think.

As I recall, posters did cite their own codes in their own municipalities, etc. It seemed that some services cannot be removed for health or sanitation reasons in some states/municipalities.

The other thing is it makes sense to cite sources to show the code really exists. Glad you looked for it, Chester.

DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PitA on 07/04/2017 10:35 AM
Take and Condemn are, in fact, different words with different meanings.

Very much so. We have two houses outside our HOA that abut my property. They were condemned by the county last fall, there are big orange condemned stickers on them, but people are still living there. I talked to code enforcement, apparently being condemned is essentially advisory. The county says they are not fit for habitation, but can't legally stop owners from using their property. Both houses are on one parcel, and the parcel is accumulating $150 a day fines. This is for the general condition of the property, not because the houses are being lived in. Eventually the fine balance will be more than the value of the property, I'm not sure if the county can finally take the property at that point or not.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046

Posted:

I'll also add that whether the association can remove sewer access from units or not, as long as the members think it's a possibility and pay their dues, then the goal has been accomplished.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.

GwenG (Florida)
Posts: 669

Posted:

So, the ends justifies the means?

This kind of behavior further erodes any trust in the fiduciary of boards; the duties of care, obedience and loyalty. The professionalism and integrity is absent. If this is acceptable, then there are many more colorations of fraud and extortion available to associations so there would be no need for governing documents and laws.

It would not surprise me at all if the board director who "appeared" to be referencing a county ordinance requiring cessation of sewer service for non-payment of HOA dues was, in fact, reviewing a recipe for chili dip.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I entirely agree with Gwen, Douglas.

In addition, we don't know if the threatening statement caused the dues payments to be made, if it was coincidence, or what?

GwenG (Florida)
Posts: 669

Posted:

"The other thing is it makes sense to cite sources to show the code really exists. Glad you looked for it, Chester."

I might suggest that Chester makes a phone call or two to the county health dept to validate this so-called new ordinance and I am sure he would be pointed in the right direction for the actual language. Or, post the name of his county and someone else can track it down.

In my opinion, this is a serious and unusual "ordinance" which should be not be permitted to remain unexamined.

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

I would like to know how homes are disconnected from sewer services. Since all lines are underground, and usually don't have a shut off valve like water supply lines do.

ChesterB
Posts: 63

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LetA on 07/05/2017 8:53 AM
I would like to know how homes are disconnected from sewer services. Since all lines are underground, and usually don't have a shut off valve like water supply lines do.

You dig, cut, and cap it off.

GwenG (Florida)
Posts: 669

Posted:

Good point, Leta. I thought that too. Sewers are gravity systems and there would be no need to install individual shutoff valves to each service location. Retrofitting the pipes would require shutting down the entire sewer system, dig up streets, cut existing pipes and install shutoff valves to each individual home.

Then the Association would have to maintain a new sewer system incorporating new connections to each home.

That sounds like a non-starter to me.

In the words of Judge Judy, "If it doesn't make sense to me, it isn't true".

ChesterB
Posts: 63

Posted:

Let's put this in some perspective. Yes, I had a major issue with my HOA a few years ago. I absolutely have trust that our current Secretary/Treasurer believes that the HOA has the authority to disconnect the sanitary sewer. He may have made an error in his interpretation of the Code or whatever document he was referring. He has integrity and would not make this up to get the delinquent owners to pay. That I am sure. Perhaps, since the Association had tried to collect these fees by taking delinquent owners to small claims court at least 3 times, the 4-County governing body approved a disconnection. If any of you want to check it out, the name of the governing body is ADLM Environmental Services. I am not going to do more research into this topic.

Also, I used to post as BanksS but a poster tried to sabotage the site by posting multiple times and my inbox became bombarded with his posts. I solved that by deleting my account under BanksS and beginning a new account with Chester (my dog's name, ha) Tim sent a post explaining that I could have just unchecked the notification box and the posts would have stopped. His post came after I had already changed my posting name.

GwenG (Florida)
Posts: 669

Posted:

Chester: "Trust but verify". I simply do not believe that your Treasurer, knowingly or haplessly, has accurately passed along a new health ordinance.

ChesterB
Posts: 63

Posted:

Gwen,

Do you think that disconnecting a sanitary sewer for delinquencies is prohibited nation wide? What do municipal sewer providers do when they have ongoing delinquencies?

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

In California, and maybe in other parts of the country, there are some HOA's that are sub metered and have to read and bill for individual's water and sewer usage. In my former HOA, this was the case. Our water district was Los Angeles Department of Water and Power. Their policy was to disconnect service to delinquent clients. Our monthly bill was $80K which covers two associations and a total of 467 detached homes and common area. If the master bill was not paid, you would be disconnected, plain and simple. That same policy was incorporated into a Cost Sharing Agreement between the two association for the one association that didn't or to the individual owners that didn't pay.

A former attorney told the Board they couldn't shut water off to delinquent owners, but told the management company separately there was no case law. Their new attorney, who many here use as reference has an opinion on their site which is wrong. They use as case law, Frances T v Village Green, except that doesn't apply because the association didn't turn the electricity off, the owner did. In addition, they state you can't disconnect service to terminate occupancy, they weren't, nor would my association. All we wanted was for the bill to get pay.

Consequently, they have over $100K in delinquent water and sewer charges from delinquent owners. People are creatures of habit. We like having running water, toilets flushing, hot bathes and showers. You would be surprised how fast people pay when the water is turned off. Liens may have no effect, but running water sure does.

There are two associations connected with the Cost Sharing Agreement. The other association has been turning water off since 1999, with only one problem. All but one homeowner has complied. The lone hold out is a plumber, they know how to reconnect once a meter has been pulled.

ChesterB
Posts: 63

Posted:

Thank you for the example Richard. I don't see there being a distinction between my Association's sewer than a municipal one in so far as disconnection policies except that water is a separate utility. That's why I am puzzled that some posters felt that disconnecting a home from sewer service would probably be illegal. Particularly since these delinquent owners have not paid in years. The state allows our Association to provide the service. In fact the state labels it as a semi-public system.

Doing a quick internet search I found some ordinances from some Iowa municipal utility companies and some from different states. I found a couple that allowed disconnection after a period of time and some that cut off the water and some that liened.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

This is the exact wording of the opinion for the "attorneys" site:

QUESTION: Is it possible to partially turn off water for delinquent owners? For instance, can the association install turn-off valves for the unit so the deadbeat owner has some water but making it difficult for him to either bathe or do his dishes?

ANSWER: California's Supreme Court has determined that associations are "for all practical purposes" a landlord. (Francis T v. Village Green.) Under landlord-tenant law, landlords may not willfully cause, "directly or indirectly," the interruption or termination of utility service to a tenant's residence with the intent to terminate occupancy. Utilities covered include, but are not limited to, water, heat, light, electricity, telephone, gas, elevators and refrigeration. (Civ. Code §789.3.) Cable TV does not qualify as a utility.

In the above referenced case, it was ONE judge in ONE case that "said" that HOA's...Blah..Blah..Blah a landlord. They are NOT! Besides, the intent is to have a bill paid, not terminate a mortgage.

The old attorney told the management company, through email that the association should "test the waters".

ChesterB
Posts: 63

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RichardP13 on 07/05/2017 7:09 PM
This is the exact wording of the opinion for the "attorneys" site:

QUESTION: Is it possible to partially turn off water for delinquent owners? For instance, can the association install turn-off valves for the unit so the deadbeat owner has some water but making it difficult for him to either bathe or do his dishes?

ANSWER: California's Supreme Court has determined that associations are "for all practical purposes" a landlord. (Francis T v. Village Green.) Under landlord-tenant law, landlords may not willfully cause, "directly or indirectly," the interruption or termination of utility service to a tenant's residence with the intent to terminate occupancy. Utilities covered include, but are not limited to, water, heat, light, electricity, telephone, gas, elevators and refrigeration. (Civ. Code §789.3.) Cable TV does not qualify as a utility.

In the above referenced case, it was ONE judge in ONE case that "said" that HOA's...Blah..Blah..Blah a landlord. They are NOT! Besides, the intent is to have a bill paid, not terminate a mortgage.

The old attorney told the management company, through email that the association should "test the waters".

Interesting. My Association does not intend for the disconnection to terminate occupancy. The condemning of the property would come from the County because there is no sewer service to the home.

Of course that is California. I'll be darned if I have any success researching Iowa state code. Their website is pretty cumbersome and I tend to get frustrated. The only thing I could find on County ordinances online was on secondary roads so that was no help.

GwenG (Florida)
Posts: 669

Posted:

Chester posted: "ADLM Environmental Services. I am not going to do more research into this topic."

Well I am. It took all of 5 minutes to pull up the website and shoot the Director of Environmental Services an email asking the question and requesting the link to the applicable Code. I will let you all know of the response.

Insofar as turning off Association utilities, this is not permitted by any governing documents or statute that I have read. The wastewater plant is common property and it is a common expense, shared and paid for equally by all parcels. The Association has remedy to capture unpaid assessments of which wastewater is a part of.

In FL, Association-owned plants are private utilities and exempt from regulation of rates and other standards. Service to the end user is not separately monitored and regardless of the usage (or non usage), each parcel pays the same bundled into the assessment payment. The Association pays the actual water usage bill and of course, all costs of operating the plant. As a commonly-owned amenity, there is no provision for subdividing service in the governing documents. I wonder if a county would have any input in the matter of unpaid assessments to the HOA, inasmuch as their interest in in the public health interest of the residents. The HOA has the means to collect unpaid assessments.

There is an Agreement between the Association and the County to provide wastewater service for the residents of the subdivision. I don't know of any other details or if or how the Agreement might be altered.

I have never heard of a disconnection of sewer service but I have heard of disconnection of water service. It is my understanding that sewers are not separately metered and their infrastructure costs incorporated into metered water use. From what I have read, municipalities certify unpaid utility charges which can then become a lien on the property, but only if that property is subject to individual taxes.

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ChesterB on 07/04/2017 8:23 AM
Below is a recent situation occurring in my association that I thought was interesting to share on this forum.

The annual meeting for my Association occurred about 3 weeks ago. The Board announced that no member was in arrears on dues and assessments. Apparently this hasn't happened in my Association in decades.

I believe the main reason is a fairly recently enacted county health code rule. My Association owns and operates the sanitary sewer for our rural subdivision. A four-county governing body oversees only code compliance with the sanitary sewer by inspecting it once every 2 years or so. They are not involved in maintenance or setting and collection of fees. However, this governing body stated that the Association may disconnect owners homes from the sewer who have not paid their fees for sewer maintenance...and the County will condemn the home if there is no sewer service connected to the home. This prompted a few of the owners in arrears to remit all of the payments owed to the Association.

Kudos to the Board who researched this and found out the applicable code relating to the sewer.

I would take that ball and RUN with it!!! If your Local Government has given you the option to disconnect owners from the sewer who have not paid ... and the County will condemn the home if there is not sewer service ... that is potentially a win ... win for the HOA. LOL ... so not sure what your question is ...

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

There was no question, just sharing of information.

ChesterB
Posts: 63

Posted:

Gwen,

I appreciate your passion on this topic!

Below is an excerpt from Raleigh, NC utility website page. Obviously not from Iowa but it appears to allow for sewer disconnection. I would guess there are other municipalities through-out the country that allow this. Just my personal opinion.

The City of Raleigh charges the following fees, as appropriate, when disconnection of service occurs:
Trip Charge
Meter Locked/Removed Charge
After-Hours Charge
Water Service Restoration Charge
Tampering Fee
Tampering Penalty
Sewer-Only Disconnection Fee
Sewer-Only Reconnection Fee
Fees can exceed several hundred dollars for a water disconnection, and even more for a sewer disconnection.
For your reference, the City's ordinances regarding disconnection of service for nonpayment can be found at the City of Raleigh Code of General Ordinances

I have mixed feelings about it and was like you fairly certain that the Association could not lawfully disconnect. Let us know if you get a response from the ADLM.

As a side note, the Association has separate fees for membership and sewer fees. Owners are not required to be members of the Association. There is a member/nonmember fee schedule for sewer service. Members pay less than nonmembers. Carry on. - Chester

GwenG (Florida)
Posts: 669

Posted:

Chester, is the water/sewer facility owned by the Association members or is it public? Are services offered to users outside the HOA? If members pay fees to the HOA, I would assume that the HOA owns the facility and individually meters to each home. Perhaps you have a special tax district set up for your HOA? Is there an agreement with your county for the HOA to collect and pass along fees?

Also, I am curious if anyone has asked the Treasurer to specifically cite the code purportedly enacted by the county which he/she announced at your annual meeting regarding the authority to disconnect for non-payment of assessment. This "fact-checking" is a fundamental practice of this forum ie to discover the authority underlying each problem brought by posters. That is why I dropped an email to your environmental agency.

Municipalities have their own ways to handle the issue of non-payment for services and in Florida, they must not conflict with the state law. Disconnection seems drastic, like foreclosure. It functionally removes safe occupancy and sets up a situation that can create a public health hazard. Doesn't sound like a "best practices" to me.

Your post has raised a question in my mind that is problematic due to the expiration of your HOA covenants and the possible expiration of covenants in my own HOA. At first flush, your original post "sounded like" the defunct HOA seeking relief from the county to strongarm delinquent members into paying. Even though, as you mentioned, the law requires "pay to play" under equitable servitudes, taking this action would be prohibitively expensive and an irrational financial strategy. The obvious question is the HOA seeking creative measures to enforce assessments in the absence of covenanted authority in order to avoid expensive civil action?

ChesterB
Posts: 63

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GwenG on 07/06/2017 8:18 AM

Chester, is the water/sewer facility owned by the Association members or is it public?
It is a sewer facility only owned by the Association. Water service is from a rural water association.

Are services offered to users outside the HOA?
No.

If members pay fees to the HOA, I would assume that the HOA owns the facility and individually meters to each home.
No meters. It's a flat rate with a member/nonmember fee schedule.

Perhaps you have a special tax district set up for your HOA?
Don't know the answer to that.

Is there an agreement with your county for the HOA to collect and pass along fees?
No.

Also, I am curious if anyone has asked the Treasurer to specifically cite the code purportedly enacted by the county which he/she announced at your annual meeting regarding the authority to disconnect for non-payment of assessment.
No one asked at the meeting but the question could have been raised at a different time.

This "fact-checking" is a fundamental practice of this forum ie to discover the authority underlying each problem brought by posters. That is why I dropped an email to your environmental agency.
I wasn't bringing it up as a problem just sharing a story. The problem was created by the skeptics (which I was a skeptic at first but will hold my opinion for now)that this was probably not a legal act for the Association to do. The skeptics come from different states so I interpret their skepticism that this would not be legal in any state due to public health concerns and due process rights of the owner.

Municipalities have their own ways to handle the issue of non-payment for services and in Florida, they must not conflict with the state law.
HOA's cannot conflict with state law either. I know of no HOA that can.

Disconnection seems drastic, like foreclosure. It functionally removes safe occupancy and sets up a situation that can create a public health hazard. Doesn't sound like a "best practices" to me.
Agree.

Your post has raised a question in my mind that is problematic due to the expiration of your HOA covenants and the possible expiration of covenants in my own HOA. At first flush, your original post "sounded like" the defunct HOA seeking relief from the county to strongarm delinquent members into paying. Even though, as you mentioned, the law requires "pay to play" under equitable servitudes, taking this action would be prohibitively expensive and an irrational financial strategy. The obvious question is the HOA seeking creative measures to enforce assessments in the absence of covenanted authority in order to avoid expensive civil action?
I don't think so. The Association just wants paid.

Good discussion. In summary, this just could be one of those unique places in the country that doesn't really fall into the standard HOA that most of you are used to.

GwenG (Florida)
Posts: 669

Posted:

Chester thanks for your focused response. I agree with you:

"The problem was created by the skeptics (which I was a skeptic at first but will hold my opinion for now) that this was probably not a legal act for the Association to do. The skeptics come from different states so I interpret their skepticism that this would not be legal in any state due to public health concerns and due process rights of the owner.

The other concern I have will be clarified when I hear from the agency that I sent the email to. If the disconnection is permissible by your state, then so be it unless and until legally challenged. If it is not, that is a whole different set of questions involving ethical and fiduciary behavior by the HOA.

This discussion is nearly as good as the barely-there swimsuit issue at the community pool!

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

The real question might be, is there any case law that would prevent such action.

The only case law I am aware of is Francis T v. Friar Village, but that specifically states a landlord cannot shut off utilities to terminate an occupancy. As Banks stated, we just want to get paid.

DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GwenG on 07/05/2017 8:37 AM
So, the ends justifies the means?

This kind of behavior further erodes any trust in the fiduciary of boards; the duties of care, obedience and loyalty. The professionalism and integrity is absent. If this is acceptable, then there are many more colorations of fraud and extortion available to associations so there would be no need for governing documents and laws.

It would not surprise me at all if the board director who "appeared" to be referencing a county ordinance requiring cessation of sewer service for non-payment of HOA dues was, in fact, reviewing a recipe for chili dip.

Isn't it amazing how people can see things differently? If I were a resident in good standing and my BOD did this and was able to get everyone current, I'd be very happy with the BOD. Excellent example of fiduciary duties being carried out!

Now, if I were a dead beat resident that had this done to me, I'd be less than happy.

DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724

Posted:

Are we now trying to figure out a way for the delinquent owners to get around this and become delinquent again?

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Below is the relevant section of the Cost Sharing Agreement that allows either Association the right to shut off water for non-payment. The other Association in this agreement has successfully used this policy for the past 18 years.

6.4.3.1 In the event that any owner or occupant of a condominium unit on either Parcel fails to timely pay any water bill presented by the Owner of the affected Parcel, then in addition to all other remedies available at law, in equity or under any recorded declaration of covenants, conditions and restrictions affecting the condominium unit, the Owner of the Parcel on which such condominium owner or occupant resides shall have the right to shut
off water to the condominium unit whose owner or occupant failed to pay for services until such time as the non-paying condominium owner or occupant has paid its water bill in full (including any late charges or other fees).

As you know, California has strict rules on due process.

BTW, this isn't a recipe for chili dip.

GwenG (Florida)
Posts: 669

Posted:

No this isn't chili dip and we do not yet have all the facts either way.

The HOA has a way to enforce collection of assessments. The sewer is owned by the Association. It can compel the non-paying owner by getting a court money judgement. I do not understand why the county is involved.

Turning off service is nasty and I wouldn't be proud to be a part of it.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GwenG on 07/06/2017 10:28 AM
No this isn't chili dip and we do not yet have all the facts either way.

The HOA has a way to enforce collection of assessments. The sewer is owned by the Association. It can compel the non-paying owner by getting a court money judgement. I do not understand why the county is involved.

Turning off service is nasty and I wouldn't be proud to be a part of it.

There is a saying, "Can't stand the fire, stay out of the kitchen".

GwenG (Florida)
Posts: 669

Posted:

Richard posted:
There is a saying, "Can't stand the fire, stay out of the kitchen".

I, too, have a collection of these hackneyed snappy snippets! How about "If you don't like it, move out!" Or, "If you didn't want to be subject to an HOA, why did you buy in"? Or, "If you disagree, run for the board and change things". Is there a Playbook written somewhere...?

Anyone in an HOA is already IN the kitchen and only has two ways to get out of the fire--sell or move. There is, in fact, a third option. Suffer the fire and educate self and others in hopes of improving the association lifestyle and perhaps, effecting changes to abusive practices.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

My point with that "snappy snippet" is that being a board member is not for everyone. It shouldn't be to keep a seat warm. Not everyone is capable of leadership. There is also another "snappy snippet", Lead, Follow or get out of the way.

I am a firm believer of "due process". There may be circumstances which you as a Board member may not be aware of. They don't show up, too bad. Actions do have consequences, don't pay your mortgage, lose your house, don't pay you assessments, potentially lose your home. Don't pay your water bill, find a good neighbor who will share their kitchen and shower.

ChesterB
Posts: 63

Posted:

Quote:

Gwen,

The 4-county Environmental Health Department is involved because it oversees the maintenance of the facility. It inspects it every two years or so and gives its blessing to allow for its continued use. The system teeters on the brink of being condemned but thanks to the Association, it is monitored very closely for problems. One of the pump houses is just beyond my property. I often see my neighbor (board member)drive his golf cart down to the pump house to check on it. We are at the mercy of the ADLM to allow it to continue. It is old, not up to code, and some of the lines have collapsed. A few years ago, there was an overflow at one of the lagoons. The ADLM takes overflows very seriously as our subdivision is very close to a lake that provides drinking water to thousands.

To be sure, it is a complicated feature of my Association. The Board is doing a very good job keeping it maintained and this takes money. The repairs can run into the thousands. There is no easy solution here.

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ChesterB on 07/05/2017 5:29 PM
Gwen,

Do you think that disconnecting a sanitary sewer for delinquencies is prohibited nation wide? What do municipal sewer providers do when they have ongoing delinquencies?

99.9% also provide water.

They shut the water SUPPLY at the meter.

They do NOT dig and disconnect the sewer.

ChesterB
Posts: 63

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PitA on 07/06/2017 1:48 PM

99.9% also provide water.

They shut the water SUPPLY at the meter.

They do NOT dig and disconnect the sewer.

PitA,

Did I steal your thunder? Of course. I was being sarcastic. (Smiley face) I forgot how to insert that.

But you know there is that .1% that don't have combined sewer and water. I did read where a wastewater service provider has an agreement with the water provider to cut off the water for nonpayment of sewer fees. .

GwenG (Florida)
Posts: 669

Posted:

This is not an area I have much knowledge about. Chester has differentiated the separate water and sewer service entities; the water is publicly owned and the HOA owns and meters sewage. Presumably, the water utility meters and bills the individual household and the HOA does the same for sewage. I have never heard of such an arrangement but that does not mean it can't exist.

Speaking as a retired health practitioner, I am aware that disconnection from sewage disposal could have adverse personal and public health consequences such as illness and further burden on social and healthcare services. To me, disconnecting a sewer does not makes sense in the bigger picture. I can't understand any densely populated area using this as a collection tool.

Disconnection of water seems to make slightly more sense in that someone who cannot pay can still go beg, steal or buy water or "borrow" their neighbor's water hose to flush their toilets. It's more a convenience issue than a sanitary health issue. What is one to do with overflowing kaka?

I have read a little about this and learned that municipalities go to great lengths to provide means and opportunities to residents who cannot afford utility bills. If unpaid, and after a thorough due process, they place liens against homes. Sometimes monies are uncollectible and that must be put into the rate structure. HOA's can do the same thing or, if they have lien and foreclosure authority, (which most do), they can use that power to enforce and collect past due assessments.

The more disturbing question is how a County gets itself inserted into HOA affairs involving HOA private property and that of its residents without the knowledge/consent of the Member-owners of the utility.

As Chester pointed out, the water authority is public but the sewer is private. I question the legality of the county in partnering with the HOA sewage facility to enforce dues payment to the benefit of the HOA by giving the HOA permission to disconnect the sewer and then saying they will then condemn the home.

The OP's report is further troubling due to the suddenness of this unusual announcement by the Treasurer, a general reference to a newly-enacted county ordinance, lack of advance notice to Members and absence of due process by both the county and the HOA. This is not like taking away your swimming pool gate card!

I am further troubled by the apparent lack of interest in determining the whole story about this situation; instead, I am described as passionate while the "high fives" abound! There is something about this that does not ring true and I would like to know more before joining the Sewer Victory Serenade.

DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724

Posted:

As I said earlier, I applaud a BOD that finds other ways of bringing delinquent owners current rather than foreclosing on their homes.

It's that simple for me.

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