Going to Superior Court in PA over $30

The HOA attorney works at the HOA board's direction, and apparently, they feel strongly enough about this to pursue you in court. Whether we feel this is a way for their attorney to get paid or not, isn't really going to help you. Instead, you need to concentrate on preparing a defense - you feel the HOA doesn't have any grounds to charge you $30, put your argument and proof together and tell it to the judge, as it were, and let him or her decide who's right.

Amelia, in my experience, some Boards manage to find an attorney who will do what is not in the HOA's best interests.

I didn't sue them. They sued me for that $5,400. I'd pay the $30 but they appealed that.

Part of the reason for the website was to inform their members. In speaking to some of them, they said they had no idea this was going on. Others said they thought their HOA had "big wins" in this case.

My development can't go to their meetings, or vote, or anything like that.

Thank you for your thoughts.

You may think the HOA attorney represents the board, but when the attorney sues a homeowner on behalf of the association, the lawsuit doesn’t describe the plaintiffs as board members A, B, C, etc. Attorneys don’t work in a vacuum – somebody has to pay for them to do what they do and they take their direction from the board. Since the money comes from assessments that are paid by HOMEOWNERS, it’s up to the homeowners to pay attention to what the board’s doing and why.

Yes, ethics and doing what’s right should come into play when making decisions, but you also know that all of us (yep, that includes you) have the potential to shut our eyes and ears and do whatever because the dollar signs are too much to resist. Ego also drives us to keep driving towards a cliff because we’re right, dammit, and by the time we realize we’re not, it’s too late.

If I was in an HOA community when the board went after a homeowner for $5400 and only got $30 for their trouble – and they appealed it (WTF???), I’d speak up and remind them that maybe, just maybe, they’re totally wrong about this and need to stop, take a deep breath and ask themselves again what is the end game in all this. I, for one, am not inclined to spend my portion of assessment money on a lawsuit that doesn’t have at least an 80% chance of winning and the association recouping all its legal expenses and the judgment.

Then, I would definitely consider rallying together my neighbors to least compel them to grow up, sit down with Amelia and settle this like adults once and for all or drop it. Or get rid of them because they clearly don’t understand that sometimes you win, sometimes you lose – when you lose, you accept it, learn from your mistakes and move on.

All that said, people make crazy decisions all the time and while it’s possible the HOA attorney is keeping this going for the money, it’s also possible he or she has tried to convince the board to let this go, they say hell no and here we are. It’s unfortunate Amelia has to go through all this nonsense because their board will not listen to reason.

But there’s hope – Amelia said she’s spoken to a few homeowners who didn’t know all this was going on or assumed the association had “big wins” ($30 isn’t a big win, in my opinion). Maybe now, they’ll start demanding answers from their board and stop spending association resources on a lost cause. If the board still doesn’t listen, they should get rid of them, because that’s probably the only way this will end.

It is going to cost you some money to hire an attorney, but you can do some ground work yourself by going to the county recorders office and getting copies of your plat and arial survey. You can also look into the title survey when you purchased your current property. Hire an attorney that that will send out some letters threatening legal action if they continue to pursue you.

I have a typo and I don't know how to edit it.

I've already done all of that, is what I meant. All the paperwork has been in order since 2011.

Potentially (check with your attorney) I would send them a check for the $30 along with a letter sent "Certified Return Receipt" that per the Court Order XXX here is the money noted per the Court Case. I am paying this money only under the Court Order based on past (1966 Deed Clause and 1911 Eastment) and does not in any way shape or form admit that it is for payment of any HOA assessment as my property is not encumbered by any HOA Declaration of Covenants, Conditions or Restrictions. Potentially this will show that you have complied with a lower Court order and avoid them bringing up in future that you have not yet complied.

Hope they are having to pay your attorney fees. It is pretty ridiculous if CCR's are not attached to your property that they are pursuing such avenues.

You should read the news articles.

What web site?

Amelia,

I hope you have been sending the $10 per year since the initial ruling.
If not, you may want to start doing so.

As far as the $30, your lawyer will be best to advise you on how to pay that.
At the very least, attempt to pay it with traceable means (certified mail, etc.).

Additionally, are you (or can you) counter sue for your legal expenses?

OOPS. My bad. I got it.

I have been trying to get my Association to engage online voting for over 7 years. It is permitted by Statute.

They sometimes say "they will look into it" but nothing ever comes of it. They simply refuse.

I believe that there is a very good reason why Associations do not employ online voting: it eliminates the possibility of fraudulent elections and removes the locus of control of ballot results.

I added a video of the budget items they are appealing to make me pay for.
It's on the front page at the bottom. www.ShoholaPa.com

I'm waiting on the Concise Statement of Matters the court ordered. That was due by the 2nd so I should have that soon.

Geno,

Two points.

One, if Florida now allows, I would have to imagine that there is language in the statue that states, "unless the governing docs state otherwise", then Bylaws or governing docs wouldn't have to be changed.

Two, what if it does get people to vote where they might otherwise not. I have done electronic surveys with association and actually got better response than I did with owners returning paper ballots through the mail. If it doesn't work, go back to plan A or proceed with plan C and so forth.

Or, maybe it wasn't there???

Here is the statute: It states in detail the things the Association must do. Nothing is rocket science. The board must only pass a resolution for electronic voting; the bylaws do not need to be changed.

There are many associations who have employed electronic voting and have stated the cost to be around $700-1000 for a typical election. This is FAR less than our 800 member HOA spends on mailing ballot "packages" to Canada (2/3 members)and to stateside members (1/3).

Associations do not need to employ any "monitors" as the electronic voting is designed to be secure and people vote from their home computers using unique signin ID. The associations who have utilized it report "record" voter turnouts. It gives Associations who have difficulty with quorums or vote thresholds a chance to pass amendments to the more superior governing documents, whereas, it is nearly impossible to do in person and paper ballots. It virtually eliminates the opportunity for ballot tampering, which has all but destroyed confidence in the voting system in my HOA. It releases Boards from the cloud of suspicion of manipulating ballot results.

This is a "follow the bouncing ball" administrative task that Managers should be able to conduct without much guidance; it can be done largely by email because most people use email these days.

Electronic voting would also make it much easier for a member-organized director recall. That might also be a sticking point for Associations, but if directors behave themselves, it seems there are many more advantages than downsides to electronic voting.

Here is the statute FS720:

720.317 Electronic voting.—The association may conduct elections and other membership votes through an Internet-based online voting system if a member consents, in writing, to online voting and if the following requirements are met:
(1) The association provides each member with:
(a) A method to authenticate the member’s identity to the online voting system.
(b) A method to confirm, at least 14 days before the voting deadline, that the member’s electronic device can successfully communicate with the online voting system.
(c) A method that is consistent with the election and voting procedures in the association’s bylaws.
(2) The association uses an online voting system that is:
(a) Able to authenticate the member’s identity.
(b) Able to authenticate the validity of each electronic vote to ensure that the vote is not altered in transit.
(c) Able to transmit a receipt from the online voting system to each member who casts an electronic vote.
(d) Able to permanently separate any authentication or identifying information from the electronic election ballot, rendering it impossible to tie an election ballot to a specific member. This paragraph only applies if the association’s bylaws provide for secret ballots for the election of directors.
(e) Able to store and keep electronic ballots accessible to election officials for recount, inspection, and review purposes.
(3) A member voting electronically pursuant to this section shall be counted as being in attendance at the meeting for purposes of determining a quorum.
(4) This section applies to an association that provides for and authorizes an online voting system pursuant to this section by a board resolution. The board resolution must provide that members receive notice of the opportunity to vote through an online voting system, must establish reasonable procedures and deadlines for members to consent, in writing, to online voting, and must establish reasonable procedures and deadlines for members to opt out of online voting after giving consent. Written notice of a meeting at which the board resolution regarding online voting will be considered must be mailed, delivered, or electronically transmitted to the unit owners and posted conspicuously on the condominium property or association property at least 14 days before the meeting. Evidence of compliance with the 14-day notice requirement must be made by an affidavit executed by the person providing the notice and filed with the official records of the association.
(5) A member’s consent to online voting is valid until the member opts out of online voting pursuant to the procedures established by the board of administration pursuant to subsection (4).
(6) This section may apply to any matter that requires a vote of the members.

The easement was in a 1911 deed. It gets mentioned again in my 1966 deed but we never saw any of that in the title search report. I guess it wasn't a specific type of search that looks for that stuff.

It doesn't matter really since the judges agree with me. The only people that don't agree with how the deeds read are the HOA board members and/or their attorney. I'm not sure who is pushing it.

Has anyone ever been on a board where you had these old deed issues? I'm just wondering how it all got handled.

I didn't go the title insurance route because we aren't part of their HOA.

The Court of Common Pleas Judge just wrote up his response to their appeal (that is part of normal procedure) where he addresses the point they appealed on. Among other things he very plainly stated "...Defendants were not and are not part of Plaintiff...".

We are the Defendants - The HOA is the Plaintiff

We've known that all along but it was nice to see someone at that level back us up.

You'd think they'd drop their Superior Court appeal but that is not the case so far. They are just trying to run us out of money so we give up in my opinion.

A counter suit is in the works.

I was trying to post the Judge's comments but it keeps giving me an error so I'll paraphrase some of it.

The Judge says the appeal should be dismissed because it is fatally flawed since they are not following the proper procedure. The Judge also said they unfairly inflated their assessments when they "billed" us because they testified that they base the assessments on the number of owners who pay and not the actual number of owners or lots.

Funny thing about that is two months after that testimony by the HOA President he is quoted in a news article on my case saying everyone pay except us.

We filed a Motion to Quash with the Superior Court.

What Gwen said, thank you for sharing. I'll also watch with interest.

Ok, well now we are going to the Commonwealth Court because the HOA filed their appeal in the wrong court and they didn't submit the explanation which was requested by the Superior Court.

The HOA also appears to be trying to get the appeal done without ever paying for the non-jury trial transcripts which, from what I understand, are a procedural requirement for Appellants.

This is one of the dumbest things I've ever seen.

Maybe you should go around knocking on some doors and having discussions with the HOA members. Maybe the HOA has such apathy that the members are not aware of the situation and how much it is costing them.

Just curious... How are you determining your NOT a member of this HOA? Title search isn't going to find this information. The information you are looking for is at the records department of your county courthouse. The documents are public. You need to take a trip to the court house to see if you have any CC&R's there. It should ONLY strengthen your case to have their CC&R's proving you don't fall into their lines/control. Plus you can use their own words against them. However, you may be surprised as well to find out you are to be a HOA member.

So far in your post I had not seen any solid proof your are or are not in the HOA. Don't think you've gotten the proper proof. Which would be the CC&R's of that HOA.

YEP ... And which is why I asked where are they??? This has been going on for some time (potentially at least couple of years) and I am sure the owners have received their annual financial reports. If they are not potentially jumping up and down screaming ... then I guess they get what they deserve. Will be interesting to see if in the future we have the HOA and owners asking why they have had to pay these fees ... LOL.

Know the feeling ... We had a USDA Grantee developer who violated many State and Federal Laws and the local city ignored and looked the other way so they could more quickly collect their utility tap fees. I told all of them I hope you are not wanting to further your political careers. LOL ... so far two who wanted to further their political careers have been smashed. Yep ... if you cannot protect your local small town citizens from criminals then it is a cold day before you should run for Mayor or County Commissioner. The State Senator BARELY squeaked by with a win ... since his party controls the state. However, his barely win means his party members are now understanding more that he is a snake and I will get him next go around. In meantime I am going after the Federal Grantees tax $$$ they get. I think they are finally understanding I was the LAST person they should have criminally violated. That violation has cost them a lot of money they did not expect to expend and will hurt their future grant opportunities. It is one thing to just hurt me ... however, when you engage in activities that harm my family, friends, neighbors, and community at large ... sorry I have a HUGE problem with that.