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ChrisH19 (Arizona)
Posts: 3
Posted:
At the December HOA meeting I reported harassment on my property of a woman and her two children perpetrated by a current board member. After that meeting I was threatened by the same member for reporting it. At the January meeting the meeting minutes were approved by the board and it included the harassment. After that approval I tried to report the threat after the December meeting in the call to the audience, and sadly was told by the president to "sit down I am not allowing you to speak on the issue".

In new business of January the president discussed disbanding the committee that I serve on, it passed 4-1. When the December minutes were posted after the January meeting they were radically different and called me out by full name twice on things I never said, also the harassment was not in the minutes.

My question is what recourse do I have, the management company pulled the minutes but the slander/Libel already occurred when it was posted to the community page. It is sad that the other members of the committee think that due to the minutes posted for December that I proposed the dissolving of the committee. No mention or action was taken towards the board that verbally attacked the lady and her children.

What if anything would be the recommendation for action I don't want to sue my HOA but sadly it may be the only way to clear my name.

Thanks Chris
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ChrisH19 on 02/12/2017 6:52 PM
At the December HOA meeting I reported harassment on my property of a woman and her two children perpetrated by a current board member. After that meeting I was threatened by the same member for reporting it. At the January meeting the meeting minutes were approved by the board and it included the harassment. After that approval I tried to report the threat after the December meeting in the call to the audience, and sadly was told by the president to "sit down I am not allowing you to speak on the issue". DO NOT COMPREHEND ... you discussed a December meeting ... then a January meeting ... then a December in reference to "call to the audience???"

In new business of January the president discussed disbanding the committee that I serve on, it passed 4-1. When the December minutes were posted after the January meeting they were radically different and called me out by full name twice on things I never said, also the harassment was not in the minutes. Again ... You are putting potentially horse before the cart: New business of January vs December minutes after January meeting ... QUESTION: Why were December minutes posted "after" January meeting?

My question is what recourse do I have, the management company pulled the minutes but the slander/Libel already occurred when it was posted to the community page. It is sad that the other members of the committee think that due to the minutes posted for December that I proposed the dissolving of the committee. No mention or action was taken towards the board that verbally attacked the lady and her children. How could Management Company "pull the minutes"? Minutes are what was stated and happened during a meeting.

What if anything would be the recommendation for action I don't want to sue my HOA but sadly it may be the only way to clear my name. Sue for what??? Take that from someone who has been there and done that!!!

Thanks Chris

ChrisH19 (Arizona)
Posts: 3
Posted:
At the December HOA meeting I reported harassment on my property of a woman and her two children perpetrated by a current board member. After that meeting I was threatened by the same member for reporting it. At the January meeting the meeting minutes were approved by the board and it included the harassment. After that approval I tried to report the threat after the December meeting in the call to the audience, and sadly was told by the president to "sit down I am not allowing you to speak on the issue". DO NOT COMPREHEND ... you discussed a December meeting ... then a January meeting ... then a December in reference to "call to the audience???"

In new business of January the president discussed disbanding the committee that I serve on, it passed 4-1. When the December minutes were posted after the January meeting they were radically different and called me out by full name twice on things I never said, also the harassment was not in the minutes. Again ... You are putting potentially horse before the cart: New business of January vs December minutes after January meeting ... QUESTION: Why were December minutes posted "after" January meeting?

My question is what recourse do I have, the management company pulled the minutes but the slander/Libel already occurred when it was posted to the community page. It is sad that the other members of the committee think that due to the minutes posted for December that I proposed the dissolving of the committee. No mention or action was taken towards the board that verbally attacked the lady and her children. How could Management Company "pull the minutes"? Minutes are what was stated and happened during a meeting.

What if anything would be the recommendation for action I don't want to sue my HOA but sadly it may be the only way to clear my name. Sue for what??? Take that from someone who has been there and done that!!!

DO NOT COMPREHEND ... you discussed a December meeting ... then a January meeting ... then a December in reference to "call to the audience???" (The minutes from December meeting need to be approved at the January meeting before posting.)

How could Management Company "pull the minutes"? Minutes are what was stated and happened during a meeting. (The management company has been delegated the responsibility to take and post the Minutes.)

Sue for what??? Take that from someone who has been there and done that!!! (Defamation of character, slander and the minutes called me out by name and sadly attributed a nasty statement that was made by a board member. All these statements were not in the approved Meeting Minutes.)
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ChrisH19 on 02/12/2017 8:24 PM

Sue for what??? Take that from someone who has been there and done that!!! (Defamation of character, slander and the minutes called me out by name and sadly attributed a nasty statement that was made by a board member. All these statements were not in the approved Meeting Minutes.)

I pretty much had a Developer consider me a Witch with a capital B. Should I have sued for slander??? Per your statement above ... "All these statements WERE NOT in the approved minutes. Therefore, how do you intend to PROVE what happened in a Court of Law? Also, how much are you willing to spend to pursue something you most likely cannot prove?

When I took on a lawsuit I had estimated a VERY HIGH probability of winning!!! If you want to sue you need to have similar estimate because in some states against an HOA if you loose you possibly can be on the hook to pay ALL parties legal fees.
ChrisH19 (Arizona)
Posts: 3
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JanetB2 on 02/12/2017 8:45 PM
Posted By ChrisH19 on 02/12/2017 8:24 PM

Sue for what??? Take that from someone who has been there and done that!!! (Defamation of character, slander and the minutes called me out by name and sadly attributed a nasty statement that was made by a board member. All these statements were not in the approved Meeting Minutes.)

I pretty much had a Developer consider me a Witch with a capital B. Should I have sued for slander??? Per your statement above ... "All these statements WERE NOT in the approved minutes. Therefore, how do you intend to PROVE what happened in a Court of Law? Also, how much are you willing to spend to pursue something you most likely cannot prove?

When I took on a lawsuit I had estimated a VERY HIGH probability of winning!!! If you want to sue you need to have similar estimate because in some states against an HOA if you loose you possibly can be on the hook to pay ALL parties legal fees.

The slanderous statements were not in the approved meeting minutes they were added after the true minutes were approved by the board. The Secretary gave me a copy of the approved minutes and a copy of the posted ones she is very upset that the Community Manager and BOD President changed them after board approval. The HOA Meeting minutes was a legal document not just a statement that has to be proven.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Minutes should only reflect specific actions the board took, not who said what - and that includes people making personal comments about each other, because things can be misinterpreted, as you said, and because minutes are official records of Association actions, you don't want stuff like that to come back and bite everyone (including you) in the behind). If the property manager and board president tried to change the minutes, they should be told in no uncertain terms, the additional comments were not approved by the board and therefore shouldn't be part of the minutes.

As far as suing people for slander or libel, I believe you're have to prove that your reputation was harmed in some way and that a specific person or persons made the remarks you're upset about and that may be difficult. I'm not saying you shouldn't sue, but first I'd try making a formal complaint to the property manager's supervisor if there is one.

I'd also make a motion for an executive session where you can discuss the president's actions - stick to the act of adding things to approved minutes, not the slander, as everyone will understand why you're bringing this up. This could and probably should prompt a censure of the president by the rest of the board, with a strong warning that inappropriate behavior like this may result in him being removed from his position (you can't remove him from the board, only the homeowners can do that). Team up with the secretary to see if that can happen. Good luck!


If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
WalterM3 (Georgia)
Posts: 442
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ChrisH19 on 02/12/2017 6:52 PM
At the December HOA meeting I reported harassment on my property of a woman and her two children perpetrated by a current board member. After that meeting I was threatened by the same member for reporting it. At the January meeting the meeting minutes were approved by the board and it included the harassment. After that approval I tried to report the threat after the December meeting in the call to the audience, and sadly was told by the president to "sit down I am not allowing you to speak on the issue".

In new business of January the president discussed disbanding the committee that I serve on, it passed 4-1. When the December minutes were posted after the January meeting they were radically different and called me out by full name twice on things I never said, also the harassment was not in the minutes.

My question is what recourse do I have, the management company pulled the minutes but the slander/Libel already occurred when it was posted to the community page. It is sad that the other members of the committee think that due to the minutes posted for December that I proposed the dissolving of the committee. No mention or action was taken towards the board that verbally attacked the lady and her children.

What if anything would be the recommendation for action I don't want to sue my HOA but sadly it may be the only way to clear my name.

Thanks Chris

To get anything from a slander case, you have to have damages. Jesse Ventura showed the court his income went from something like $2,000,000/yr to $400,000/yr, he said because of slanderous material in the book "American Sniper." I think he won like $1,800,000. then it went to appeal or whatever.

So unless you can show that the slanderous material cost you financially, you can't collect. Except:

and Slander Per Se. Per Se is a Latin term meaning “of itself” or “for itself.” Defamation per se, whether it is libel (written) or slander (spoken), is a statement that is defamatory on its face. It is a statement that is deemed to cause such great harm to the one who has been defamed that damages are presumed.

Georgia has a per se clause in its slander law, you might check your state.
WalterM3 (Georgia)
Posts: 442
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ChrisH19 on 02/12/2017 6:52 PM
At the December HOA meeting I reported harassment on my property of a woman and her two children perpetrated by a current board member. After that meeting I was threatened by the same member for reporting it. At the January meeting the meeting minutes were approved by the board and it included the harassment. After that approval I tried to report the threat after the December meeting in the call to the audience, and sadly was told by the president to "sit down I am not allowing you to speak on the issue".

In new business of January the president discussed disbanding the committee that I serve on, it passed 4-1. When the December minutes were posted after the January meeting they were radically different and called me out by full name twice on things I never said, also the harassment was not in the minutes.

My question is what recourse do I have, the management company pulled the minutes but the slander/Libel already occurred when it was posted to the community page. It is sad that the other members of the committee think that due to the minutes posted for December that I proposed the dissolving of the committee. No mention or action was taken towards the board that verbally attacked the lady and her children.

What if anything would be the recommendation for action I don't want to sue my HOA but sadly it may be the only way to clear my name.

Thanks Chris

To get anything from a slander case, you have to have damages. Jesse Ventura showed the court his income went from something like $2,000,000/yr to $400,000/yr, he said because of slanderous material in the book "American Sniper." I think he won like $1,800,000. then it went to appeal or whatever.

So unless you can show that the slanderous material cost you financially, you can't collect. Except:

and Slander Per Se. Per Se is a Latin term meaning “of itself” or “for itself.” Defamation per se, whether it is libel (written) or slander (spoken), is a statement that is defamatory on its face. It is a statement that is deemed to cause such great harm to the one who has been defamed that damages are presumed.

Georgia has a per se clause in its slander law, you might check your state.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Chris,

Keep in mind that the HOA is not the police department. Nor is it part of the court system.
Some of what you discuss should be addressed in those arenas.

If you believe you have been slandered, talk to your attorney for legal options.

If you believe you are being harassed or threatened, contact the police.

If you want that individual off of the Board, gather support and vote them off at the next election or, if you have enough support, recall them.

Board minutes are written, amended and approved by the Board, not the membership.
If you have two different copies, this may interest your attorney.

Minutes of the general membership are written by the Board but amended and approved by the general membership.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 02/13/2017 6:07 AM
Chris,

Keep in mind that the HOA is not the police department. Nor is it part of the court system.
Some of what you discuss should be addressed in those arenas.

If you believe you have been slandered, talk to your attorney for legal options.

If you believe you are being harassed or threatened, contact the police.

If you want that individual off of the Board, gather support and vote them off at the next election or, if you have enough support, recall them.

Board minutes are written, amended and approved by the Board, not the membership.
If you have two different copies, this may interest your attorney.

Minutes of the general membership are written by the Board but amended and approved by the general membership.


To clarify, as Chris mentioned there is a PM involved, minutes are not always written by the Board. In many cases they are written by either a PM or a recording secretary when there is a management company involved.

The Board approves what someone else writes.
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
Libel and slander are both forms of defamation. Defamation is a common law tort, governed by state law, in which an individual makes a "publication" of a defamatory statement of and concerning the plaintiff that damages the reputation of the plaintiff. The distinction between slander and libel comes in the form of the publication.

Slander involves the oral "publication" of a defamatory remark that is heard by another, which injures the subject's reputation or character. Slander can occur through the use of a hand gesture or verbal communication that is not recorded. Libel, on the other hand, is the written "publication" of a defamatory remark that has the tendency to injure another's reputation or character. Libel also includes a publication on radio, audio or video. Even though this would be considered oral, or verbal, communication to someone it is actually considered to be libel because it is published in a transfixed form.

What are the elements of a cause of action for libel or slander?

The elements of a defamation suit; whether slander or libel, are:

1. A defamatory statement;

2. Published to a third party;

3. Which the speaker knew or should have known was false;

4. That causes injury to the subject of the communication

Litigation differences

Slander and libel lawsuits differ in the way that a prima facie case must be proven. In the case of slander, the defendant doesn't have to prove that the statements he made are true; instead the plaintiff has to prove that the defamatory statements made against him are false. In other words, the burden of proof is on the plaintiff.

In making a prima facie case for libel first, the plaintiff needs to prove that the statement was false. This can be difficult to prove, especially if evidence has disappeared. For some claims that fall within "libel per se" these are easier to prove. The accusation that one is a criminal can be easily proven false by submitting a lack of a criminal record. Proving falsity in a slander case can be difficult, especially if evidence has disappeared. For some claims that fall within "slander per se" these are easier to prove. The accusation that one is a criminal can be easily proven false by submitting a lack of a criminal record.

Second, in both a slander and libel case the plaintiff needs to prove that the statement was published by the defendant. Libel cases are easier to prove than slander cases. A perfect example is when a newspaper makes libelous statements. There is a printed copy of the statement, with the authors name usually right under it. Slander, however, does not create the same tangible evidence. Often slander involves a "he said, she said" situation. Unless the publisher admits to having made the slanderous statement there is often no proof that it was ever said. If one is contemplating a slander action then witnesses should be gathered far before any decision to file a lawsuit.

Damages

Differences exist in the amount of damages that are awarded in slander and libel actions. In a libel action, unless the plaintiff is a public official or public figure, the plaintiff does not need to prove financial damages. The common law has made a policy determination that the publication of defamatory statements in a transmittable, affixed form that is capable of widespread and simple dissemination will certainly cause damage and therefore damage to one's reputation or character is enough for a court to impose damages.

A slander action is different. The threat of a single publication through a medium incapable of mass dissemination, longevity, or permanence shall is not considered to be as grave as that of a libelous publication. Therefore the common law requires that the plaintiff prove, not only damage to his/her reputation, but also financial damage.

Is defamation on the internet libel or slander?

It is unclear at this point whether the transmittal of defamatory statement over the internet constitutes libel or slander. This may not seem like an important distinction but it is important, especially as to the awarding of damages. Some cases throughout the U.S. court system have tried to answer the question.

In Varian v. Deflino & Day two former employees had libeled Varian executives by posting more than 14,000 defamatory messages on over 100 different websites. The jury found that the defendants liable for defamation as well as misappropriation of the executives names.

In 2006 a Florida court awarded a plaintiff $11.3 million dollars when the defendant posted numerous comments on message boards defaming the plaintiff and her business reputation. The court did not specify whether the cause of action was based on libel or slander.

Due to the courts unwillingness to specify a specific form of defamation associated with internet use it can be perceived that the court system has not yet determined how to deal with the matter. Cyberlaw is a new and important field of law and as more cases come to trial stage the answer to this question may come with it.
WalterM3 (Georgia)
Posts: 442
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PitA on 02/13/2017 1:57 PM
Libel and slander are both forms of defamation. Defamation is a common law tort, governed by state law, in which an individual makes a "publication" of a defamatory statement of and concerning the plaintiff that damages the reputation of the plaintiff. The distinction between slander and libel comes in the form of the publication.

Slander involves the oral "publication" of a defamatory remark that is heard by another, which injures the subject's reputation or character. Slander can occur through the use of a hand gesture or verbal communication that is not recorded. Libel, on the other hand, is the written "publication" of a defamatory remark that has the tendency to injure another's reputation or character. Libel also includes a publication on radio, audio or video. Even though this would be considered oral, or verbal, communication to someone it is actually considered to be libel because it is published in a transfixed form.

What are the elements of a cause of action for libel or slander?

The elements of a defamation suit; whether slander or libel, are:

1. A defamatory statement;

2. Published to a third party;

3. Which the speaker knew or should have known was false;

4. That causes injury to the subject of the communication

Litigation differences

Slander and libel lawsuits differ in the way that a prima facie case must be proven. In the case of slander, the defendant doesn't have to prove that the statements he made are true; instead the plaintiff has to prove that the defamatory statements made against him are false. In other words, the burden of proof is on the plaintiff.

In making a prima facie case for libel first, the plaintiff needs to prove that the statement was false. This can be difficult to prove, especially if evidence has disappeared. For some claims that fall within "libel per se" these are easier to prove. The accusation that one is a criminal can be easily proven false by submitting a lack of a criminal record. Proving falsity in a slander case can be difficult, especially if evidence has disappeared. For some claims that fall within "slander per se" these are easier to prove. The accusation that one is a criminal can be easily proven false by submitting a lack of a criminal record.

Second, in both a slander and libel case the plaintiff needs to prove that the statement was published by the defendant. Libel cases are easier to prove than slander cases. A perfect example is when a newspaper makes libelous statements. There is a printed copy of the statement, with the authors name usually right under it. Slander, however, does not create the same tangible evidence. Often slander involves a "he said, she said" situation. Unless the publisher admits to having made the slanderous statement there is often no proof that it was ever said. If one is contemplating a slander action then witnesses should be gathered far before any decision to file a lawsuit.

Damages

Differences exist in the amount of damages that are awarded in slander and libel actions. In a libel action, unless the plaintiff is a public official or public figure, the plaintiff does not need to prove financial damages. The common law has made a policy determination that the publication of defamatory statements in a transmittable, affixed form that is capable of widespread and simple dissemination will certainly cause damage and therefore damage to one's reputation or character is enough for a court to impose damages.

A slander action is different. The threat of a single publication through a medium incapable of mass dissemination, longevity, or permanence shall is not considered to be as grave as that of a libelous publication. Therefore the common law requires that the plaintiff prove, not only damage to his/her reputation, but also financial damage.

Is defamation on the internet libel or slander?

It is unclear at this point whether the transmittal of defamatory statement over the internet constitutes libel or slander. This may not seem like an important distinction but it is important, especially as to the awarding of damages. Some cases throughout the U.S. court system have tried to answer the question.

In Varian v. Deflino & Day two former employees had libeled Varian executives by posting more than 14,000 defamatory messages on over 100 different websites. The jury found that the defendants liable for defamation as well as misappropriation of the executives names.

In 2006 a Florida court awarded a plaintiff $11.3 million dollars when the defendant posted numerous comments on message boards defaming the plaintiff and her business reputation. The court did not specify whether the cause of action was based on libel or slander.

Due to the courts unwillingness to specify a specific form of defamation associated with internet use it can be perceived that the court system has not yet determined how to deal with the matter. Cyberlaw is a new and important field of law and as more cases come to trial stage the answer to this question may come with it.

I was sued for defamation. The plaintiff's attorney tried to get me to settle based on a case she had won (she said), based on Facebook posts. Some unlucky person had slandered a police officer on FB. According to the e-mail the plaintiff's attorney sent me, she got a $555,000 judgment for the police officer.

Ouch.

I didn't settle, and I won.

Anything you post on social media can really cause you some trouble.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Chris,

By serving on a committee for your association, you became a "public official." Whatever you did or did not do is open for discussion and your recourse is extremely limited, per New York Times Co. v. Sullivan. Since 1964, a person in your position must prove that not only were the statements both knowingly false and defamatory but also made with a malicious intent. That is an enormous burden to overcome.

See http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/376/254.html
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WalterM3 on 02/13/2017 2:10 PM

I was sued for defamation. The plaintiff's attorney tried to get me to settle based on a case she had won (she said), based on Facebook posts. Some unlucky person had slandered a police officer on FB. According to the e-mail the plaintiff's attorney sent me, she got a $555,000 judgment for the police officer.

Ouch.

I didn't settle, and I won.

Anything you post on social media can really cause you some trouble.

Whoever got sued by the cop for defamation had a fool for an attorney. See my above post.

If I recall correctly, the person suing you for defamation was an HOA board member.

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