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GeorgeR11 (New Jersey)
Posts: 9
Posted:
I sit on the Board of my HOA. We have been dealing with an recurring issue regarding our fences. Specifically, whether or not fences that run along main arteries through and around the perimeter of our neighborhoods are considered Common Areas. These fences do form the back or side fence on individual homes but run along main drives into the neighborhood - a "common road" if you will.

The larger sections of regular fence are in dire need of repair - pieces are leaning, cracked or completed broken apart. The material is of concrete casting made to look like wood, similiar to Hardyplank. It is an eye sore to our community.

In years past, with different Board members, these fences were declared the sole responsibility of the individual homeowner's. The HOA was only considered responsible for a few, specific sections of wrought iron fence. As a result of the insistence of a previous Board member, the reserve studies in years past purposely EXCLUDED funds for any fence repair or maintenance that was not related to the wrought iron fence sections. Our attorney recently concurred that the HOA is not responsible for the fences in question.

Side note: Our MUD recently offered to replace a large section of our perimter fence if the HOA coughs up $200,000. THe MUD will then contribute the remaining $300,000 cost and sign the fence over to the HOA for us to assume responsibility of maintaining it going forward.

Our reserve fund as it stands is around $400,000 with about $125,000 already earmarked for current in-progress capital improvements.

My questions:

- Should we fix the fence along the main arteries that the HOA previously declared as the homeowner's responsibility by having the owners sign them over to the HOA?
- Should we accept the offer from the MUD to replace sections of the perimeter fence by contributing $200,000 and assuming future maintenance responsibility?
- If we do any of this, how do we pay for it?
- If we do NOT do any of this, how we did enforce a demand to the homeowners to repair their sections of fence?

Thank you!
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
You need to look at your CCR's. Do your CCR's note the fencing and show the fence as common area to be maintained by the HOA? My last subdivision the Developer was required by the City to initially install fencing in some areas; however, the fence was placed on the individual lots and was the responsibility of the new owners to maintain and repair in the future. The new owners essentially received "free" fencing on one side of their property and only had to worry about finishing on the other sides.

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Our attorney recently concurred that the HOA is not responsible for the fences in question. You answered your own question ... to take on that responsibility would require Amending your CCR's and majority of owners to agree. If I was a member I would not agree, and most of your other owners will most likely not agree.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
George

What is a MUD?

It appears the BOD tried to pass responsibility to owners for their section of the fence but it seems this failed miserably.

My first blush would be to take the MUD money then assess the owners for the balance which I believe will be $200K to the owners. If the fence was not in the Reserves than taking the money from the Reserves will deplete the Reserves for an unplanned on expense.

An aside. Each of our backyards is fenced in with 6ft, shadow box, privacy fences. The fences are all identical and cannot be stained, painted, power washed, etc. unless done by the HOA. The homeowner is responsible for the portion of the fence that runs along their backyard. Adjoining neighbors share the cost of the common/shared side fence. If no adjoining neighbor(s) than the homeowner is responsible for the non-shared side(s). In my case I am responsible for the back fence and one non-shared side. My next door neighbor and I are jointly responsible for the one side we share. The HOA decides when a fence needs repair/replacement and the repair/replacement has to be identical to the existing fence. As our fences are less than 8 years old, we have not had to order any replacements yet. I can hear the crying/screaming when we have to.
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
To enforce you will need to send the owner's a letter that their fences are not being properly maintained per Section ??? of the Declaration of Covenants, Conditions and Restrictions and that they have X amount of time to bring their fences into compliance. Have your attorney review the letter as he can potentially determine fines for not complying or if the HOA should pay for repairs and charge the owner's an assessment fee for the repairs made.
GeorgeR11 (New Jersey)
Posts: 9
Posted:
The CCR's do not make a specific reference to the fences in question. It just includes more generic language that states the homeowner is responsible for the maintenance of all exterior surfaces of walls. I just replaced by entire backyard fence, which faces the playground/pool/rec center. I was informed that the HOA would not contribute in any form or fashion as all fences were placed on the individual lots and were the responsibility of the homeowners - regardless of the fact part of it faced toward a "common area".

I have attached a screenshot from the CCR's.
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GeorgeR11 (New Jersey)
Posts: 9
Posted:
Understood. In thinking this through, I, as an individual homeowner and not as a Board member, would probably not agree as well.
GeorgeR11 (New Jersey)
Posts: 9
Posted:
I think this will be our likely course of action - better enforcement of the homeowners' maintenance responsibilities. Thank you.
GeorgeR11 (New Jersey)
Posts: 9
Posted:
MUD = Municipal Utility District ... they provide the water/sewage functions to our neighborhoods and have easements all over the place. They are offering to help replace a section of fence on which their utility easement runs parellel.
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
LOL ... My response to other owners who tried to state was HOA responsibility generally is ... Show me where it states in the CCR's that the HOA is responsible for maintaining the fence. The issue usually dies because they cannot show me
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Here is what it breaks down to: If the HOA pays for an item/repair, then ALL members are paying for it. Is this the best approach for resolving/addressing the issue?

Basically it breaks down to individual responsibility and ALL responsibility. When it comes to fencing, it's the best example of the dilemma. The HOA (Members) can indeed vote that it is responsible for the repairs and maintenance of the fences. However, that means a possible special assessment or raise in HOA dues. How many people are going to agree to pay for OTHER's issues by increased dues/assessments? Most of the time, people are going to vote it down and agree for it to be individual responsibility.

Most HOA's I find handle fencing like this... They allow an owner to install fencing or maintain the existing fencing. They give approval and make sure it's compliant. After that, they don't pay for the individual repair or installation. When the fencing becomes non-compliant, not approved, or needs maintenance the HOA has the individual responsible. A non-compliant fence can be addressed 2 ways. A fine if allowed. 2. The HOA paying for the repair and sending the owner the bill. If they refuse to pay, then the HOA can lien for that amount owed.

For me, I think it's best the HOA approach fencing on an individual level and not as a group. It can become a real nightmare trying to vote in a special assessment and then set a precedent.

Former HOA President
DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JanetB2 on 02/09/2017 9:52 AM
To enforce you will need to send the owner's a letter that their fences are not being properly maintained per Section ??? of the Declaration of Covenants, Conditions and Restrictions and that they have X amount of time to bring their fences into compliance. Have your attorney review the letter as he can potentially determine fines for not complying or if the HOA should pay for repairs and charge the owner's an assessment fee for the repairs made.

If the fences are the owners property and responsibility, and unless the CCRs say otherwise, I would assume the owners would also have the option of just removing the fence rather than rebuild/replace.

George didn't say how many owners how many owners have this fence on their property, but if it's a small number their share of a 200k assessment would be huge. For example, if there were 20 affected owners that would be 10k each. If my HOA wanted me to pay 10k to replace a fence along my property, I'd tell them to pound sand. It would either be replaced with a less expensive option, or just removed.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posted:
> The CCR's do not make a specific reference to the fences in question. It just includes more generic language that states the homeowner is responsible for the maintenance of all exterior surfaces of walls.

If you have summarized it correctly- that's not generic, it's specific. A wall is pretty different from a fence.

If it is truly ambiguous in the CC&Rs- then it's time for a clarifying amendment.
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DouglasK1 on 02/09/2017 1:54 PM
Posted By JanetB2 on 02/09/2017 9:52 AM
To enforce you will need to send the owner's a letter that their fences are not being properly maintained per Section ??? of the Declaration of Covenants, Conditions and Restrictions and that they have X amount of time to bring their fences into compliance. Have your attorney review the letter as he can potentially determine fines for not complying or if the HOA should pay for repairs and charge the owner's an assessment fee for the repairs made.


If the fences are the owners property and responsibility, and unless the CCRs say otherwise, I would assume the owners would also have the option of just removing the fence rather than rebuild/replace.

George didn't say how many owners how many owners have this fence on their property, but if it's a small number their share of a 200k assessment would be huge. For example, if there were 20 affected owners that would be 10k each. If my HOA wanted me to pay 10k to replace a fence along my property, I'd tell them to pound sand. It would either be replaced with a less expensive option, or just removed.

Well Douglas ... That would depend on the CCR's. If the CCR's state each owner shall have a 6' fence and the fence shall consist and be built of vinyl, cedar, etc. OR the CCR's might state as the OP's do as he noted above where the Owner SHALL be required to maintain, repair, replace ... all improvements on a lot ...

Keep in mind the numbers OP was quoted (i.e. $200,000) were in essence "government" costs ... LOL!!! The OP replaced his own fence and I would BET ALOT it was possibly MUCH less than the MUD quote would be for same area covered. I have found most government options contain some sort of trash.
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By FredS7 on 02/09/2017 3:44 PM
> The CCR's do not make a specific reference to the fences in question. It just includes more generic language that states the homeowner is responsible for the maintenance of all exterior surfaces of walls.

If you have summarized it correctly- that's not generic, it's specific. A wall is pretty different from a fence.

If it is truly ambiguous in the CC&Rs- then it's time for a clarifying amendment.

Are you trying to state that a fence is not an improvement? I am not an attorney, but I think the section posted reads well.
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Let me explain what the local government via its MUD (Municipal Utility District) is potentially attempting here. The local government has ordinances which they have to follow and maintain. If someone is not following then the government has to go after many owners instead of one entity the HOA. Therefore, the government is offering to initially PAY for some of the maintenance in order to get owners to agree to maintain via their HOA in the future. In the future the government can hold the HOA responsible and only have to pursue ONE entity vs many owners.

This is why Cities or Counties LOVE any HOA's who supersede any of their local laws/ordinances. YEP ... any who do Make Their Day!!! Their goal is to have Citizens police other Citizens. How many owners have contacted their local government on violations and been asked ... Do you have an HOA? Then been told your HOA can regulate that issue.

My response to them has been ... provide the State Laws which state that my HOA must SUPERSEDE your local LAWS? If your have those LAWS then YOU are responsible to uphold and maintain NOT the HOA. My family, friends, and neighbors HAVE NOT taken on your legal responsibility or liability. That pretty much gets their tail moving on the situation ...
GeorgeR11 (New Jersey)
Posts: 9
Posted:
Thank you for all the responses. The Board met up last night and discussed the fence situation some more. It was agreed that there was no way we could justify or even entertain the idea of coming up with the $200,000 for the MUD to replace a fence. The President's hope is that the MUD will, in the near future, offer to replace the fence at $0 cost to the HOA. It appears they have done so twice for us before. We have two sections of fence the MUD replaced in prior years that were done at $0 cost to the HOA but the HOA did assume the responsibility of ongoing maintenance.

As for the other sections of fences that require attention, the President informed me that we have actually been paying to do basic maintenance to these fences for some years now - despite them legally being the homeowners' responsibility. I was unaware we were performing any maintenance and made clear that our governing documents do not REQUIRE us to do this, but if we are - based on a precedent set by previous Boards - we need to appropriately budget for these expenses (we are currently not) and consider including the costs of basic fence maintenance (repairs, NOT replacement) in our reserve study to ensure we have adequate funds as the fences age and require more attention. I also made it a point that if we are assuming some any responsibility for the fence maintenance, it sure doesn't look like it due to the various broken, cracked or just plain ugly sections. If we continue to spend money on fence maintenance, the fences need to look like they are being maintained. If we need to spend a little more to do so, we need to budget for it according going forward and/or find an appropriate contractor to perform the repairs - rather than rely on our landscaper...

The Board agreed to my recommendations on each of the items. Thank you all! Your input was extremely helpful.
DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JanetB2 on 02/09/2017 10:24 PM
Posted By DouglasK1 on 02/09/2017 1:54 PM
Posted By JanetB2 on 02/09/2017 9:52 AM
To enforce you will need to send the owner's a letter that their fences are not being properly maintained per Section ??? of the Declaration of Covenants, Conditions and Restrictions and that they have X amount of time to bring their fences into compliance. Have your attorney review the letter as he can potentially determine fines for not complying or if the HOA should pay for repairs and charge the owner's an assessment fee for the repairs made.


If the fences are the owners property and responsibility, and unless the CCRs say otherwise, I would assume the owners would also have the option of just removing the fence rather than rebuild/replace.

George didn't say how many owners how many owners have this fence on their property, but if it's a small number their share of a 200k assessment would be huge. For example, if there were 20 affected owners that would be 10k each. If my HOA wanted me to pay 10k to replace a fence along my property, I'd tell them to pound sand. It would either be replaced with a less expensive option, or just removed.

Well Douglas ... That would depend on the CCR's. If the CCR's state each owner shall have a 6' fence and the fence shall consist and be built of vinyl, cedar, etc. OR the CCR's might state as the OP's do as he noted above where the Owner SHALL be required to maintain, repair, replace ... all improvements on a lot ...

Keep in mind the numbers OP was quoted (i.e. $200,000) were in essence "government" costs ... LOL!!! The OP replaced his own fence and I would BET ALOT it was possibly MUCH less than the MUD quote would be for same area covered. I have found most government options contain some sort of trash.

If you look at George's second post, you'll see that the fences do not appear to be mandated.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DouglasK1 on 02/10/2017 9:11 AM
Posted By JanetB2 on 02/09/2017 10:24 PM
Posted By DouglasK1 on 02/09/2017 1:54 PM
Posted By JanetB2 on 02/09/2017 9:52 AM
To enforce you will need to send the owner's a letter that their fences are not being properly maintained per Section ??? of the Declaration of Covenants, Conditions and Restrictions and that they have X amount of time to bring their fences into compliance. Have your attorney review the letter as he can potentially determine fines for not complying or if the HOA should pay for repairs and charge the owner's an assessment fee for the repairs made.


If the fences are the owners property and responsibility, and unless the CCRs say otherwise, I would assume the owners would also have the option of just removing the fence rather than rebuild/replace.

George didn't say how many owners how many owners have this fence on their property, but if it's a small number their share of a 200k assessment would be huge. For example, if there were 20 affected owners that would be 10k each. If my HOA wanted me to pay 10k to replace a fence along my property, I'd tell them to pound sand. It would either be replaced with a less expensive option, or just removed.

Well Douglas ... That would depend on the CCR's. If the CCR's state each owner shall have a 6' fence and the fence shall consist and be built of vinyl, cedar, etc. OR the CCR's might state as the OP's do as he noted above where the Owner SHALL be required to maintain, repair, replace ... all improvements on a lot ...

Keep in mind the numbers OP was quoted (i.e. $200,000) were in essence "government" costs ... LOL!!! The OP replaced his own fence and I would BET ALOT it was possibly MUCH less than the MUD quote would be for same area covered. I have found most government options contain some sort of trash.


If you look at George's second post, you'll see that the fences do not appear to be mandated.

Fences potentially can be mandated when they are installed and becomes an "improvement" as noted in the first sentence or two of the document posted.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Our fences (fencing in the backyards) were builder installed. Our Covenants make it clear the homeowner alone is responsible for the back edge and share responsibility for the sides with the next door neighbor who they share the side fence with. For the few side that are next to Common Property (meaning not shared with a neighbor), the owner is responsible.

Though our Covenants do not specifically say fences cannot be removed or changed or painted, etc. they do say no changes can be made to a fence without BOD permission. The Covenants also have a catch all phrase that says "Community Standards" and with 113 identical fences, guess what the Community Standard would be if push came to shove?

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