Inactive HOA - Florida 25 years old ???

Started by MitchellP1 • 14 replies • 2181 views

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MitchellP1 (Florida)
Posts: 4

Posted:

I am looking at a property that is in a very small community of 7 lots. But the "lots" are very large, averaging around 20 acres. Sadly, even what I would consider farmland these days has an old HOA document that is restrictive.

There is an HOA from 1992 (filed on 3/19/92). So it will turn 25 years old next month. The HOA status is inactive. Of the 7 lots, 3 have homes. I have talked to all the homeowners and they all acknowledged the HOA is inactive, but they may 're-activate" it once all 7 lots are built on. Currently there is no activity on the 4 remaining lots.

I have a copy of the declaration which states that it has a life of 40 years and then automatically renews for 10 years unless other action is taken.

I know that the existing homeowners have violated 2 at least sections of the document (chickens, land clearing), but that is not my issue, my issue is with an 18 acre lot I would like to raise some livestock and build a smaller home, but the document seems to be your basic agreement for a standard subdivision.

My first question is does the HOA status impact the impact of the declaration of restrictions?

The document will be 25 years old next month, does it automatically expire?

If I build a home which doesn't follow the guidelines of the restrictions, what action can they take if they don't exist?

It states "minimum living area of 2000 sqft excluding screened area and garage"?

It states only dogs & cats, yet 2 of the existing homes have chickens, will that help me when I bring in an Alpaca?

But my real question is does the document have any real weight after 25 years?

I really don't want to get into a war with new neighbors either.

Thanks for any advice? I have talked to a lawyer, but hate to start throwing money away if I don't need to. I guess worst case would be we buy the property and then get a stop building order half way through construction and have to add 800 SQFT to our retirement home.

MitchellP1 (Florida)
Posts: 4

Posted:

I just talk to the county which stated they do not enforce HOA restrictions at all, but said the lot in question is zoned R3 (no livestock or animals) and has a minimum build size of 1500 SQFT with 1200 SQFT living area.

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Is a developer involved? There are only 3 of 7 homes and you are in FL, and that state allows vast permissions for developers. If the document is attached to the property title ... yes it is enforceable. Inactive does not mean cannot activate and enforce.

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

You should not purchase in an HOA with intent to violate the contract others purchased under in good faith. If you build less than others and as designated by the Covenants you then potentially affect the value of their property. This affects not only those families, but also their Secured Creditors who lent money based on what has been implied and expressed.

FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927

Posted:

What JanetB2 said.

Further: if I am understanding what you wrote correctly- any violations of the HOA restrictions within the next 35 years can be enforced by any of your neighbors by filing a civil lawsuit. This is independent of the county zoning regulations.

Of course, this would cost your neighbor (or neighbors) real money.

So ask yourself: do I feel lucky?

MitchellP1 (Florida)
Posts: 4

Posted:

Thanks for the replies. I understand the desire to keep values up, unfortunately that doesn't mean a 4000 SQFT doublewide trailer has more value than a 1000 sqft conventional home. Even houses of the same size can be valued differently depending on construction.

I am not going to violate anything, but I also don't wish to be restricted by a document that is no longer valid.

MitchellP1 (Florida)
Posts: 4

Posted:

No, the developers hasn't been involved in 15 years.

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MitchellP1 on 02/02/2017 2:14 PM
No, the developers hasn't been involved in 15 years.

Make sure who is the owner of the undeveloped lots ... if it is any entity who has development rights then those rights in FL potentially do not expire. FL is very pro developer to a great extent. When my mom was looking at buying a vacation home in FL I told her if she purchased a property under developer control I would put my foot up her tail end ... LOL.

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MitchellP1 on 02/02/2017 12:38 PM
I am looking at a property that is in a very small community of 7 lots. But the "lots" are very large, averaging around 20 acres. Sadly, even what I would consider farmland these days has an old HOA document that is restrictive.

There is an HOA from 1992 (filed on 3/19/92). So it will turn 25 years old next month. The HOA status is inactive. Of the 7 lots, 3 have homes. I have talked to all the homeowners and they all acknowledged the HOA is inactive, but they may 're-activate" it once all 7 lots are built on. Currently there is no activity on the 4 remaining lots.

I have a copy of the declaration which states that it has a life of 40 years and then automatically renews for 10 years unless other action is taken.

I know that the existing homeowners have violated 2 at least sections of the document (chickens, land clearing), but that is not my issue, my issue is with an 18 acre lot I would like to raise some livestock and build a smaller home, but the document seems to be your basic agreement for a standard subdivision.

My first question is does the HOA status impact the impact of the declaration of restrictions? Generally no ... the CCR's are attached to the property title and run with the land. The one item in FL which can make such an impact is MRTA:
http://www.kbrlegal.com/homeowner-associations-be-aware-and-wary-of-the-marketable-record-title-act/

The document will be 25 years old next month, does it automatically expire? You stated the Declaration states it has a life of 40 years and renews. Therefore you have already answered your own question.

If I build a home which doesn't follow the guidelines of the restrictions, what action can they take if they don't exist? The other property owners can potentially sue you.

It states "minimum living area of 2000 sqft excluding screened area and garage"? Then that is what should be built for reasons I have already stated. To do otherwise violates others who have already purchased in good faith based on what has been stated.

It states only dogs & cats, yet 2 of the existing homes have chickens, will that help me when I bring in an Alpaca? Not if others in the HOA want to file a potential lawsuit against you and include the ones who have chickens also in the lawsuit. If all the other owners want something different than already implied and expressed ... they need to get together and Amend the CCR's to reflect their choices. No one should violate the CCR's and instead make changes so they are all protected with regards to everyone's mutual choice.

But my real question is does the document have any real weight after 25 years? Yes it can if someone enforces because again it is attached to everyones property title and runs with the land.

I really don't want to get into a war with new neighbors either.

Thanks for any advice? I have talked to a lawyer, but hate to start throwing money away if I don't need to. I guess worst case would be we buy the property and then get a stop building order half way through construction and have to add 800 SQFT to our retirement home.

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MitchellP1 on 02/02/2017 12:43 PM
I just talk to the county which stated they do not enforce HOA restrictions at all, but said the lot in question is zoned R3 (no livestock or animals) and has a minimum build size of 1500 SQFT with 1200 SQFT living area.

If this is the local government zoning ... then you potentially could not have the livestock you are wanting and why the CCR's state only dogs or cats. BTW ... that means those with chickens are possibly violating the local government ordinances.

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

I would be curious why the County has it zoned with no livestock or animals on such large acreage? Before I would consider purchasing that would be a question I would want answered and would submit to have the local ordinance changed, if possible before I purchased.

DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046

Posted:

The HOA being inactive does not invalidate the covenants. The fact that others are in violation does not invalidate the covenants. Even if there is no board of directors, any other owner can typically sue to enforce the covenants, any time while they are still valid.

I am not aware of any automatic expiration after 25 years, but there is a law called MRTA that will expire the covenants if they are not preserved before 30 years from the root of title for a given property (not 30 years from when they were written). Here is one overview:
https://www.floridabar.org/divcom/jn/jnjournal01.nsf/Author/E3897C8163A7258285256BD80071EED5

Preservation requires positive action by the association. Here is a long thread about what can go wrong:
http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/forumid/1/postid/203351/view/topic/Default.aspx

If your goal is to not risk being at war with one or more neighbor's then it's not a good idea to buy property with the express intent of violating the covenants. Things could go well for a while (or even forever), but there is a risk that a single owner could decide to go after the violations, and it can turn into an expensive war.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.

BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MitchellP1 on 02/02/2017 12:38 PM
. . . The HOA status is inactive. . . . I would like to raise some livestock . . . It states only dogs & cats, yet 2 of the existing homes have chickens, will that help me when I bring in an Alpaca ? . . . I guess worst case would be we buy the property and then get a stop building order half way through construction and have to add 800 SQFT to our retirement home.

MitchellP1 Fla : Good for you for doing your diligence beforehand. Not sure if it has occurred to you that even an Alpaca might give the inactive-looking HOA a shot in the arm. Is this the way you might want to start your retirement ?

After seeing enough fights even about parrots & pussycats, 'worst case' could be a lot worse than merely adding 800 ft2. . . I would love having a horse or two but the covenants prohibit it and I might need the neighbours . . .

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

In another 5 years Florida's MRTA will extinguish the deed restrictions and covenants if no "Notice of Preservation" is recorded. So another option for you is maybe wait 5 years and do whatever you want. MRTA's 30-year timer likely supersedes the deed restrictions' 40-year timer.

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GenoS on 02/02/2017 11:07 PM
In another 5 years Florida's MRTA will extinguish the deed restrictions and covenants if no "Notice of Preservation" is recorded. So another option for you is maybe wait 5 years and do whatever you want. MRTA's 30-year timer likely supersedes the deed restrictions' 40-year timer.

That still would not eliminate his issue with regards to the local ordinances pertaining to allowed animals.

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