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MichaelB32 (California)
Posts: 141
Posted:
I have two questions:

1. When an HOA legal council pursue a case on contingency does that mean that the HOA is not responsible for any costs whether the HOA wins or loses?.
2. Is it legal to set up a subset of a Board (“Executive Council” which is also a quorum which holds secret meetings (no announcements) and excludes the other Board members?

Our HOA has been pursing legal Action against a member for over two years for not asking for permission. The owner was granted permission from the City with Building permits and inspection to do an internal remodeling project very similar to one that was done several years ago in our Association. But the HOA would not grant them permission after they started the project and went to court. The HOA received a judgement for $100k against this homeowner for legal fees only because the Homeowner did not ask for permission. Our HOA has approximately $100K operating funds deficit this month and which has been on the books for several months. The member in question filed bankruptcy which cleared the debt with courts. But the HOA General Legal council has run up another $40K in expenses trying to provide the bankruptcy was illegal. The HOA council lost that trial. He is now pursuing trying to through out the member’s homestead of the property. The unit has an appraisal in its unfinished condition of $140K (no appliances, unfinished floors down to the sub flooring, no tubes, sinks or toilets). On a good day similar units that are is in very good condition go for $300K. The attorney submitted his appraisal of $470K. There is a first on this unit for $300K-its entire purchased price. The member has no equity in the unit. I asked our board at the last meeting why this additional $40k of legal expenses does appear on our financial statements even though it was published in courts. They stated that their legal council is doing this legal action on contingency and that the HOA will not have to pay anything if he wins or loses. As one final note, we have a five man board with two recent elected members. Two previous members resigned and in one case , one resignations was because of the money that was being spent. We were informed at this last HOA meeting that the Board had created an internal “Execute Council” consisting to the previous three members and none of the new members. These three member get together in private, receive correspondence exclusively form the attorney and make the recommendation to the entire Board as to how the legal matter against this homeowner will be handled. Of course the three members are a quorum.

I am in the State of California

You can correspond with me directly if you want at [email protected]

Michael Barto
[email protected]
MichaelB32 (California)
Posts: 141
Posted:
One other things, the $100k of operating expense deficit represent approximately 10% of our HOA total yearly members’ assessments.

Michael Barto
[email protected]
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelB32 on 01/30/2017 6:07 PM
I have two questions:

1. When an HOA legal council pursue a case on contingency does that mean that the HOA is not responsible for any costs whether the HOA wins or loses?.

Depends on how the contingency is written.
Typically, the Association owes no money unless the case is won or settled.

see:

5 Do's And Don'ts Of Contingency Fee Work

Contingency Fees: Read this Before You Hire a Lawyer

How does a contingent fee agreement work?

Quote:
Posted By MichaelB32 on 01/30/2017 6:07 PM
I have two questions:

2. Is it legal to set up a subset of a Board (“Executive Council” which is also a quorum which holds secret meetings (no announcements) and excludes the other Board members?

A Board may establish any committee that they see as required.

Per the davis-stirling website: Discussion of association issues by less than a quorum of directors in an executive committee is not a violation of the Open Meeting Act (Civ. Code §§4900-4955) and does not require a meeting notice. If the committee is composed of a majority of directors then notice must be given.

See: Executive Committee
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelB32 on 01/30/2017 6:07 PM
1. When an HOA legal council pursue a case on contingency does that mean that the HOA is not responsible for any costs whether the HOA wins or loses?.


There should be a written contract authorizing the attorney to pursue this action for the association. That contract should also specify who pays what. My experience with contingency contracts is limited but I believe it is common to require the client to pay certain costs, such as fees for filing the complaint, serving process, and any other out-of-pocket expense that any litigant would incur. Those expenses arise whether the association wins or loses although they would normally be awarded a judgment for those costs should they prevail.

Quote:

2. Is it legal to set up a subset of a Board (“Executive Council” which is also a quorum which holds secret meetings (no announcements) and excludes the other Board members?


No. Holding secret meetings is a blatant violation of the Open Meeting Law. I know of no law that would allow a majority of the elected board of directors to exclude some board members as all board members are supposed to be equal.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
You can have an Executive Committee which consists of less than a majority of the Board members, but not a majority. If this "council" is meeting with their attorneys, not only is the Board in violation, but so is the attorneys. They should know better.
NigelB (Texas)
Posts: 254
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelB32 on 01/30/2017 6:24 PM
One other things, the $100k of operating expense deficit represent approximately 10% of our HOA total yearly members’ assessments.

One of the problems with pursuing law suits is that even if the association wins it might not be able to recover any judgement or court costs (attorney fees). That puts the entire membership on the hook and could result in an increase in assessments to cover the unrecoverable fees.
MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 494
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NigelB on 02/02/2017 6:40 AM
Posted By MichaelB32 on 01/30/2017 6:24 PM
One other things, the $100k of operating expense deficit represent approximately 10% of our HOA total yearly members’ assessments.


One of the problems with pursuing law suits is that even if the association wins it might not be able to recover any judgement or court costs (attorney fees). That puts the entire membership on the hook and could result in an increase in assessments to cover the unrecoverable fees.

That, although if a lawsuit is on contingency then the lawyer picks up all costs.

But another issue occurs when such a lawsuit is on contingency. If a new board decides that litigation is not in the best interests of the HOA, you can bet that the lawyer working on contingency is going to want to recover his costs (and then some) from the HOA. This isn't a Gennie easily put back into the bottle, unlike an attorney working on retainer who you can turn on or off by a simple phone call.
MichaelB32 (California)
Posts: 141
Posted:
This is all interesting but what about collusion and mis appropriation of funds?

Collusion is an agreement between two or more parties, sometimes illegal and therefore secretive, to limit open competition by deceiving, misleading, or defrauding others of their legal rights, or to obtain an objective forbidden by law typically by defrauding or gaining an unfair market advantage. It is an agreement among firms or individuals to divide a market, set prices, limit production or limit opportunities. It can involve "wage fixing, kickbacks, or misrepresenting the independence of the relationship between the colluding parties". In legal terms, all acts effected by collusion are considered void.

But what kind of law is being broken?

Michael Barto
[email protected]
SueW6 (Michigan)
Posts: 814
Posted:
This ONE issue-case could be taking up a lot of Board time, so it's not unusual to set up a special committee to deal with all the issues/paperwork, BUT not make any decisions.

Those need to be brought to the Board for motion/approval (like hiring the lawyer and approving the billing agreement)

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarkM31 on 02/02/2017 7:09 AM
That, although if a lawsuit is on contingency then the lawyer picks up all costs.

But another issue occurs when such a lawsuit is on contingency. If a new board decides that litigation is not in the best interests of the HOA, you can bet that the lawyer working on contingency is going to want to recover his costs (and then some) from the HOA. This isn't a Gennie easily put back into the bottle, unlike an attorney working on retainer who you can turn on or off by a simple phone call.


In the few contingency contracts I have seen, the client pays for out-of-pocket expenses as they are incurred. The attorney is not going to spend his hard cold cash on your lawsuit; you are. The contracts also have had provisions that once the attorney starts working he and he alone is in charge. A subsequent board would be bound by those provisions whether they like them or not. You can bet the attorney is not going to walk away without a payment from somebody if a later board gets cold feet.
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardP13 on 01/30/2017 8:17 PM
You can have an Executive Committee which consists of less than a majority of the Board members, but not a majority. If this "council" is meeting with their attorneys, not only is the Board in violation, but so is the attorneys. They should know better.

I agree with Richard. All BOD members should be included in meetings with the attorney ... they should not exclude new BOD members elected by the majority of the membership.
SueW6 (Michigan)
Posts: 814
Posted:
If the Board established this sub committee, it is perfectly legal.

Like I said before, maybe the entire Board does not want to deal with this ONE issue, and has set up a committee to get info and report back to the Board for major decisions.

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SueW6 on 02/02/2017 11:28 AM
If the Board established this sub committee, it is perfectly legal.

Like I said before, maybe the entire Board does not want to deal with this ONE issue, and has set up a committee to get info and report back to the Board for major decisions.

In some states Sue ... A "majority" of the BOD cannot have a meeting and exclude other BOD members. A BOD member can be on a sub-committee, but if the "majority" are on that committee it then potentially is considered also a BOD meeting and as such cannot exclude other members, if they choose to participate.
EnzaC (Connecticut)
Posts: 23
Posted:


No. Holding secret meetings is a blatant violation of the Open Meeting Law. I know of no law that would allow a majority of the elected board of directors to exclude some board members as all board members are supposed to be equal.


So how do you hold these people accountable? So many homeowners simply do not care to try and get a new board on or are manipulated by lies told by the existing board.
MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 494
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LarryB13 on 02/02/2017 10:52 AM

In the few contingency contracts I have seen, the client pays for out-of-pocket expenses as they are incurred. The attorney is not going to spend his hard cold cash on your lawsuit; you are.

That's not really a contingency lawsuit then
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Mark,

Even in contingency legal action, only the attorney fees are contingent on winning the case.
Expenses are either paid as you go, taken off the top of the settlement before legal fees or billed to the client if the case is lost (see links provided earlier).

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 494
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 02/02/2017 8:21 PM
Mark,

Even in contingency legal action, only the attorney fees are contingent on winning the case.
Expenses are either paid as you go, taken off the top of the settlement before legal fees or billed to the client if the case is lost (see links provided earlier).


All the ones I've been involved in where off the top after settlement
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
I'd prefer to pay as you go. This way I will find out if the expenses are being reasonable.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarkM31 on 02/02/2017 8:26 PM
Posted By TimB4 on 02/02/2017 8:21 PM
Mark,

Even in contingency legal action, only the attorney fees are contingent on winning the case.
Expenses are either paid as you go, taken off the top of the settlement before legal fees or billed to the client if the case is lost (see links provided earlier).



All the ones I've been involved in where off the top after settlement


Just how many cases have you been involved in where there was a contingency?

In my state, I do believe the State Bar limits attorneys to the types of cases and clients where a contingency may be used. In the situation in this thread where the client is a corporation and the issue is basically a breach of contract, the Arizona State Bar would not allow a contingency. In California, where there are too many attorneys chasing too few paying clients, there seems to be no such restriction. One of the contingency contracts I have seen was posted on this forum by a California resident and their association was pursuing a construction defect lawsuit.
MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 494
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LarryB13 on 02/02/2017 9:01 PM
Posted By MarkM31 on 02/02/2017 8:26 PM
Posted By TimB4 on 02/02/2017 8:21 PM
Mark,

Even in contingency legal action, only the attorney fees are contingent on winning the case.
Expenses are either paid as you go, taken off the top of the settlement before legal fees or billed to the client if the case is lost (see links provided earlier).



All the ones I've been involved in where off the top after settlement


Just how many cases have you been involved in where there was a contingency?

.

Checking my CV for me?
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Most of the ones I have seen or have had attorneys put forth to me are as Tim has stated. But have also seen some as Mark has stated. The issue on this thread is the fact that the new BOD members should have access to the Attorney's Contract and what it states with regards to what type of "contingency agreement" is in place for the HOA.
SueW6 (Michigan)
Posts: 814
Posted:
This sub-committee is dealing with ONE issue - not conducting Board business or passing any motions. It is an information gathering/reporting committee only. The INTENTION of the meeting is to report to the board for final decisions.

Please don't distort the intention of the laws governing Open Meetings Act or administrative setup of committees.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SueW6 on 02/04/2017 7:57 AM
This sub-committee is dealing with ONE issue - not conducting Board business or passing any motions. It is an information gathering/reporting committee only. The INTENTION of the meeting is to report to the board for final decisions.

Please don't distort the intention of the laws governing Open Meetings Act or administrative setup of committees.


In California, its against the law, period.

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