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JohnS95 (Missouri)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Hi all, hope to get some advice. I am on the board for a smaller community of about 150 homes in Missouri. The developer turned over control of the HOA to us in 2008 using some sort of majority vote based on the 2003 CC&R requirements. Well, come to find out that the language states that there is to be a majority vote and signed document of all homeowners at the time. Turns out, maybe 15 or so out of the 50 homes in 2008 actually voted. So there is some legality of are the 2008 amendments in play which grants authority to a board for enforcement and other such tasks. The attorney recommended two options, one is to go back through and attempt to get a majority of the homes to sign, which is a tall task, but certainly doable. The other option is to continue business as usual until someone sues if they don't like an architectural rule or a fine and possible have the amendments struck down which wipes out the board.

With all that said, I currently have an ethical dilemma. I feel that it is in the best interests of all parties to ensure that our CCR's are iron clad and can be defended from any angle. This means to go and get the signatures or a new vote that supports 50%+1 of current homeowners. Others on the board think business as usual is the approach, which means continuing to collect dues for an HOA that may not be able to defend itself or prevent the remaining lots from not meeting requirements. They believe it would open a can of worms and infuriate everyone and eventually would shut the HOA down.

This was long, but I'm not sure I can allow this to happen in good conscience. They want to keep this from the membership. Any advice? Anyone been in a similar situation? Can I force disclosure of this? Former board members have acknowledged that they knew that it wasn't a majority as required by initial covenants. There is no document or even meeting minutes from 2008 that supports that a majority supported it. There is only the county clerk notary saying that the new board that formed in 2008 signed and acknowledged that they got the majority.

Thank you for your time.
JohnS95 (Missouri)
Posts: 10
Posted:
One more piece of info. The reason we went to digging about this is a land owner was refused permission to build a house and they challenged our authority to do so by sending our attorney a letter. It's possible they could take this further and our lawyer may not be able to defend.
JohnS95 (Missouri)
Posts: 10
Posted:
One more piece of info. The reason we went to digging about this is a land owner was refused permission to build a house and they challenged our authority to do so by sending our attorney a letter. It's possible they could take this further and our lawyer may not be able to defend.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Continuing with "business as usual" seems to me to denote this board's perpetuating a fraud upon the "members." I wonder if this is criminal. If you cannot persuade your board to go out and get a legal vote, one option is to resign and turn over to this party (that is seeking legal action against the Association) the facts.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
... and on the other hand, what do the original CC&R's indicate is necessary to either dissolve the Association or amend the CC&Rs? As a matter of law, the 2008 vote may very well have failed to turn control over to a board elected by the HOA's members. But does this mean the CC&Rs just vanish? I doubt it. Often the CC&Rs contain language about their "running with the land."

Do the CC&Rs by any chance offer members the remedy of taking legal action against one another to enforce the covenants, in lieu of the board being the enforcer?
JohnS95 (Missouri)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Thanks for the reply. The original 2003 restrictions will remain in effect which means that the "developer" which has since gone bankrupt, is still in control and makes decisions. Not until 180 homes will a board be in place, and only then it is to handle the pool area. The 2008 amendment changed authority from the developer to a board for all enforcement matters.

I have also thought about resigning and turning over what I know to the challenging party. What I don't want is retaliatory action taken against me for revealing the truth. That's where I don't think I can trust the HOA attorney, who has already advised us that we have shaky legs to stand on if the challenger pressed further, yet also advised us to continue business as usual.

I'm probably going to resign in any case and just keep good documents about what I know, and the actions the rest of the board took since they knew. This way I can hope to show that I did not agree to perpetuate any potential fraud or other liability issues.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
John

What proof do you have that the amendments were done improperly? All you have is hearsay but the county has a document saying it was done properly.
JohnS95 (Missouri)
Posts: 10
Posted:
The county has a document filed by the previous board of directors saying that a vote was taken and a majority of the HOA agreed. Fact is, it was only a majority of those that voted, and there were few folks that voted. There is an email that was sent to draft up filing language that indicates that it was only a few people that voted. Additionally a previous board member has stated that only a few people voted. There is no instrument to prove that the vote even occurred other than what the board at the time said in their filing. There is a folder on the email account that has a handful of email votes for the issue, but not enough to satisfy the majority requirement. Our attorney has reviewed and states that he would have a tough time defending in court. The current board knows all of this, and despite that wants to continue business as usual.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnS95 on 01/09/2017 7:04 PM
Well, come to find out that the language states that there is to be a majority vote and signed document of all homeowners at the time.


The two most common methods for amending the CC&R's are: 1) a vote by a specified percentage of owners; and 2) an instrument executed by a specified percentage of owners. Yours is the first I have heard of to require both.

If there is no recorded instrument indicating approval of the 2008 amendments by the required percentage of owners then you do not have a lawfully amended declaration, regardless of any other statements that the board recorded.

My advice to you is to let all members know of these problems. You might want to draw up a new set of CC&R's and see if you can gather enough signatures to amend the existing CC&R's. If you ever find yourself in the position to do so, dump that attorney and his "fake it until you get caught" advice.
JohnS95 (Missouri)
Posts: 10
Posted:
The rest of the board hasn't come out and specifically asked me not to talk to members about this, but I have a feeling they will try to force me into something. There is no code of ethics in the bylaws to follow. There is no official closed door meeting policy either. I just wonder if I can get blow-back from them if I did say mention this at the next full membership meeting after resigning. I really wish I didn't have to do this, I enjoy the community and I know that the majority of homeowners would gladly sign something to fix this, if only so they could use the pool. 50%+1 is easy to get compared to some other neighborhoods in my area that I have researched that need 75-90% approval.
SueW6 (Michigan)
Posts: 814
Posted:
What was needed: Majority of those in attendance at the meeting OR majority of homeowners?

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnS95 on 01/09/2017 7:04 PM
Hi all, hope to get some advice. I am on the board for a smaller community of about 150 homes in Missouri. The developer turned over control of the HOA to us in 2008 using some sort of majority vote based on the 2003 CC&R requirements. Well, come to find out that the language states that there is to be a majority vote and signed document of all homeowners at the time. Turns out, maybe 15 or so out of the 50 homes in 2008 actually voted. So there is some legality of are the 2008 amendments in play which grants authority to a board for enforcement and other such tasks.

If I'm reading this correctly.

150 lots.
In 2008: 50 owned by individuals 100 owned by Declarant?

If that is correct, then with the Declarant representing 100 lots, there was the majority. In fact, with 115 lots there is 75%

JohnS95 (Missouri)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 01/11/2017 3:46 AM
Posted By JohnS95 on 01/09/2017 7:04 PM
Hi all, hope to get some advice. I am on the board for a smaller community of about 150 homes in Missouri. The developer turned over control of the HOA to us in 2008 using some sort of majority vote based on the 2003 CC&R requirements. Well, come to find out that the language states that there is to be a majority vote and signed document of all homeowners at the time. Turns out, maybe 15 or so out of the 50 homes in 2008 actually voted. So there is some legality of are the 2008 amendments in play which grants authority to a board for enforcement and other such tasks.


If I'm reading this correctly.

150 lots.
In 2008: 50 owned by individuals 100 owned by Declarant?

If that is correct, then with the Declarant representing 100 lots, there was the majority. In fact, with 115 lots there is 75%


Great point. I will be asking this question next opportunity. My guess is that the developer had gone bankrupt by then and the bank owned the undeveloped lots. He also was not on good terms with the homeowners at the time as there was some money missing from the pool account. If I can get consensus from the old board that he did participate in this "vote" then I believe that it would satisfy the majority issue in my mind, despite still not having any signed document by the majority of owners. Thanks for this!
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnS95 on 01/11/2017 4:29 AM
If I can get consensus from the old board that he did participate in this "vote" then I believe that it would satisfy the majority issue in my mind, despite still not having any signed document by the majority of owners. Thanks for this!

Typically if there is a vote and a sign-in sheet at the meeting, the President at the time can attest to that fact.
It would only come into play if challenged.
BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnS95 . . . Your chosen title: HOA amendments issue - ethics . . With all that said, I currently have an ethical dilemma. I feel that it is in the best interests of all parties to ensure that our CCR's are iron clad and can be defended from any angle. . . . I'm not sure I can allow this to happen in good conscience. They want to keep this from the membership. Any advice ?

JohnS95 MISS:
1- Respectfully think carefully about disclosuring to stakeholders if you are still a Board member.

Respectfully, 'ETHICS ' in the condo/HOA universes gets frequently applied ( or at least understood ) by many Boards NOT as to your own personal conscience - as I believe you may be describing above. Not in a consumer-friendly way. Not clearly as to transparency &/or duty to stakeholders.

In that other universe, 'ethics' may just a soften get construed by a Board majority as non-disclosure to stakeholders. Or "After the Board made its decision, did the Director stop publicly disclosing any contrarian views or inconvenient truths acquired as a Director ?" "Did he publicize divurgent opinion ?" "Is the Director rocking the boat ?"

Maybe it's a variant of the risk run by any stakeholder asking - at a general owners or stakeholders meeting - any question that tends to expose the Board to look incompetent or even dishonest.

( Many of my jurisdiction's condo communities have adopted Ethics By-laws with few judicial tests so far about applying their frequently imprecise definitions. Lower & appeal courts upheld an internal Board unseating, deferring to the point of not even asking specifically what had been the details of the alleged ethical shortfall begfore the Baord majority expelled the alleged ethical breacher.

Almost a year later a legal article allowed a slip that the "ethical breach' had been an alleged physical assault against the Board President, a minor criminal offence albeit between volunteers at close quarters . . )

2 You may find high levels of judicial tolerance for turn-over loose-ends if decades have elapsed.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 01/11/2017 3:46 AM
Posted By JohnS95 on 01/09/2017 7:04 PM
Hi all, hope to get some advice. I am on the board for a smaller community of about 150 homes in Missouri. The developer turned over control of the HOA to us in 2008 using some sort of majority vote based on the 2003 CC&R requirements. Well, come to find out that the language states that there is to be a majority vote and signed document of all homeowners at the time. Turns out, maybe 15 or so out of the 50 homes in 2008 actually voted. So there is some legality of are the 2008 amendments in play which grants authority to a board for enforcement and other such tasks.


If I'm reading this correctly.

150 lots.
In 2008: 50 owned by individuals 100 owned by Declarant?

If that is correct, then with the Declarant representing 100 lots, there was the majority. In fact, with 115 lots there is 75%


Good catch Tim.
JohnS95 (Missouri)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Asking around, the developer appears to have no connection what the board did and possibly didn't vote, or provide signature to turn his vote over to the rest. At least nothing was written down or recorded that officially turned over administration to the board from the developer himself. I'm still going to try to use that angle and see what the consensus is at the next board meeting.
JaneJ2 (Arizona)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Your attorney and Board members may argue that it is an "insignificant technicality," but such details can become a big deal if any heated dispute arises. I have no legal experience, but failure to disclose to members jeopardizes the integrity of the Board for any action they may have taken and could prejudice the court against the Board and individual members.

Also, consider your HOA insurance for liability for Board members. If charges of non-disclosure were made against Board members and a court determined financial damages (cost of correcting HOA legal standing and/or defending Board), would you become personally liable?

Hopefully, Declarant with a majority ownership will allow a resolution of the problem.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JaneJ2 on 01/12/2017 4:01 PM

would you become personally liable?

Typically not. Even if the D&O insurance refuses to cover, most governing documents and many States applicable statutes require that the Association indemnify their Directors, Officer and Committee members.
DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724
Posted:
I'm kind of following along here and learning as I go. In this case, does the developer represent 100 votes? Or is it 1 vote for 100 properties. If it's the latter, then wouldn't the board have the majority they needed at the time?

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DouglasM6 on 01/30/2017 4:58 PM
I'm kind of following along here and learning as I go. In this case, does the developer represent 100 votes? Or is it 1 vote for 100 properties. If it's the latter, then wouldn't the board have the majority they needed at the time?


As Tim noted above and which was a great attention to detail it would generally be the Developer had 100 votes and therefore majority voted. Developers will have at least one vote per unit and in some states can have multiple votes (i.e. class votes) per unit.
JohnS95 (Missouri)
Posts: 10
Posted:
All, sorry this took so long. Here is an update.

The developer at the time went bankrupt. Several "developers" bought the remaining lots. Probably close to 70-80 out of 194. Well, their rep indicated to us when we called that the board that filed the amendments with the county, knew they weren't valid because the developer lot owners never voted, or agreed to vote. There literally is no instrument. They filed anyways despite being warned that what they were doing wouldn't ever pass legal muster. So long story short, there is no HOA. The HOA in the 2003 documents wasn't supposed to take over until 180 homes. And even then it is only to maintain the pool area. So our lawyer is drafting something to try to get 50%+1 to vote on previous amendments which turn the community over to an HOA. It's debatable if this would happen once the letter goes out once they find out what the previous board did. Some members of the board want to file legal action against previous attorney and previous board for fraud. I think I will chip in for that as well. They also got us into a pool loan in which we do not have any way to even collect dues anymore to pay for that loan. We don't even technically own the common areas based on the 2003 documents.

It's a mess.

Luckily the board finally saw things my way when a lot owner finally gave us 24 hours to approve his build plans or he was taking us to court. We have hit rock bottom, we can only go up from here, right?
JohnS95 (Missouri)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DouglasM6 on 01/30/2017 4:58 PM
I'm kind of following along here and learning as I go. In this case, does the developer represent 100 votes? Or is it 1 vote for 100 properties. If it's the latter, then wouldn't the board have the majority they needed at the time?


It is one vote per lot. 194 lots. So without the developer at the time, it would have never passed unless they had near record turnout. Which they didn't, it was only about 15 yes votes.

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