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JaneJ2 (Arizona)
Posts: 10
Posted:
A thread in 2009 opened this question which currently relates to our HOA, and I want to expand the question based on earlier answers.

Our CCRs state that storage sheds must be lower than the adjacent wall and that any architectural request that is approved must abide by this height restriction. Our block walls are approx. 5.5 to 6.5 feet tall throughout the HOA. The Board has used another CCR provision re variances to ignore this restriction. We have approximately 250 homes, and they have approved at least 15 sheds as high as 7 ft. One shed is adjacent to a 5.5 wall, rising 1.5 feet.

Our HOA is in a newer affluent area of the city with many HOAs. Storage sheds are not visible in other HOAs near ours.

Regarding impact of sheds on property values, comments discuss impact on value for the owner of the home where the storage shed sits.

HOWEVER, the impact of the shed on the HOA and its overall appeal to home buyers is a separate issue. Regarding the HOA, in an area where high price homes do not have sheds, what is the impact of visible sheds in our HOA? I'd especially appreciate insights from realtors or from your perspective as a home buyer yourself. Thank you!

CCR restrictions on sheds (for our HOA) are separate from CCR restrictions on other types of outside buildings/additions. For additions in the backyard the requirements are strong re matching home: stucco, roof tiles, paint, etc.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Jane,

With newer homes having little to no storage, and the desire to have garages used as a garage (vs. a storage pit), I would think that sheds wouldn't be an issue and likely attractive to buyers.

When I was looking, I either wanted storage within the home (unfinished basement, extra room or walk-up attic) or the ability to have a shed. This was a deal breaker for my purchase.

As long as the sheds were kept in good condition and placed properly (small shed on small lot, large shed on large lot), I wouldn't have an issue.
If the sheds were rusty, peeling paint, etc., that would be a different story.

I would have looked elsewhere if cars were parked in the driveway because the garages were used as storage or if garage doors were open and I could see they were being used as storage.

BTW, I just purchased a home that has storage within and the covenants allow sheds.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Personally I am all for storage sheds but they must be tightly controlled as to type size, height, location, etc. One should not be able to just throw one up.
JaneJ2 (Arizona)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Thank you, Tim. I understand your point about diminished storage in newer homes. And I agree that garages used as storage create problems for the neighborhood. However, I wonder about the local and neighborhood practices in Virginia and Arizona. In certain neighborhoods here, I wouldn't hesitate to build a storage shed that conformed to standards. In our current HOA and local HOAs, the standard is tight control over storage sheds to eliminate or minimize their presence. Thus our HOA stands out as "the one" that has sheds...and has offered no clear standards from the BoD to maintain the quality of those we see. Your view is important. I think it helps shed light on the many considerations related to the local HOA and local standards. Thanks, again.
JaneJ2 (Arizona)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Do you live in an HOA with standards for sheds defining size, height, location? If so, what are they?
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Many of the townhomes in my community have attached storage sheds instead of garages (this is what happens when you have two cheap developers!) As you've probably guessed, some look a lot better than others.

Our Board began rebuilding a few last year, but it will likely be on a case by case basis because some people added more stuff (which they may or may not have gotten prior approval to do). In those cases, I would hope they’re holding the homeowner will be responsible for maintenance (there were at least 3 property managers before I moved here and quite a bit of paperwork has been lost, along with original homeowners who are long gone).

As for how they impact property values, the word is very subjective, so I agree with Tim that it’s probably more important to worry about their condition and location (big sheds on tiny lots usually look ridiculous). Perhaps your board can talk a walk through and gather more data to see what type of trends you see in size, color, design, etc. and use that to come up with some design standards everyone would have to comply with

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
One tight restriction I have seen is the shed must be finished (windows, doors, siding, roofing, etc.) identical to the house itself. Brick house, brick shed, etc.

Another one was no metal sheds as they rust. Wood or vinyl only.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Jane,

You have quite a sense of humor: an "affluent" HOA with strong requirements for matching stucco! Hah!

Seriously, you seem to have a mistaken belief that trivial matters have some sort of effect on home values. The fact is that there is absolutely nothing that your association can do to cause home values to increase. On the other hand, your HOA can cause your property values to fall.

Property values in Arizona are established by state-licensed appraisers. They use recent sales of similar homes in the general area to determine what a home is worth. The properties they compare a home to are seldom in the same subdivision and often several miles away. Mortgage lenders use the appraisals to determine the maximum amount they will lend on a particular home. There are many things that appraisers ignore: landscaping, "curb appeal," and sheds. (We had an appraisal on our home two years ago and there was no mention in the report about the rusty metal shed in my backyard nor about all the sheds that can be seen in my neighbors' yards.) Those items have no effect on the appraisal.

Your association can definitely cause property values to fall by adopting a policy of "Harass Thy Neighbor." Get into some nasty fights over trivial matters, such as the height of a shed, and the whole world may know about it. Word gets out too easily. An appellate court opinion in a Pennsylvania case questioned in a footnote the wisdom of an association that was trying to collect $45,000 in fines for a metal fence in a backyard; the court asked how excessive fines could possibly attract future buyers.

My advice would be to find a hobby and quit worrying about sheds.
JaneJ2 (Arizona)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Larry, I agree with several points you make, most importantly, "On the other hand, your HOA can cause your property values to fall."

An appraisal evaluates a specific home and its structural components - in the context of the values of all properties in the neighborhood. Thus your appraisal did set the value of your own home in this context...what are homes generally selling for and what are the qualities of and the general upkeep of the area that sets this pricing based on what buyers are willing to pay.

Trivial - this, like so many things in life, is in the eye of the beholder. What about the eye that beholds a storage shed directly out of their formal dining room? This is supposed to be the function of CCRs - to set a common agreement for homeowners in a neighborhood.

Do you live in an HOA? Are you subject to an HOA and CCRs? If so, does your BoD uphold the CCRs?
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
All else being equal with respects to price, construction quality, style, HOA fees, etc., I'd sure buy in the HOA where I wouldn't see sheds at all let alone rusty ones. Assuming I wasn't the only prospective buyer who felt that way, we'd all buy in the better-looking HOA & the asking prices with the visible sheds would fall.

Just curious Larry--is the rusty shed on your property that 7+ acres out among several other rural large create houses? Or the one you live in?
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JaneJ2 on 01/09/2017 2:03 PM
What about the eye that beholds a storage shed directly out of their formal dining room? This is supposed to be the function of CCRs - to set a common agreement for homeowners in a neighborhood.


The view you describe is seen by thousands of us every day. It's just part of life in the big city. From what you posted previously, it sounds like your own board of directors has repeatedly allowed non-conforming sheds to be erected.

One side effect of getting worked up over imaginary issues is that you may have cost yourself dearly. When the time comes to sell you will have to disclose to all interested buyers those conditions about your property that would cause a reasonable person not to purchase it. Since you find the view of the shed to be unacceptable, you must disclose that. Any savvy buyer will adjust his offer downward. (Even though I see much the same sort of view, I am not required to disclose it because to me it is nothing unusual or objectionable.)

Quote:

Do you live in an HOA? Are you subject to an HOA and CCRs? If so, does your BoD uphold the CCRs?


Funny you should ask. No, I do not live in an HOA. My home has some recorded restrictions but no HOA. When we bought our current house I told the realtor that an HOA was a deal-killer. From my standpoint, a house inside an HOA is worth zero. I would not buy it under any circumstance. I do not need the hassle.

I do, however, own unimproved property in Yavapai County where we have a property owners association and I have served a term on that board. The restrictions in the CC&R's are minimal and mirror county ordinances. When anyone complains about another owner the board usually directs them to file a complaint with the county.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 01/10/2017 5:45 PM
Assuming I wasn't the only prospective buyer who felt that way, we'd all buy in the better-looking HOA & the asking prices with the visible sheds would fall.


We bought our current house with the rusty shed in May, 2011. When we refinanced two years ago we discovered that our house appraised for twice what we paid. Last fall we took out a home improvement loan and found that our house had tripled in value. The rusty shed is still there and does not factor at all into the property value.

Quote:

Just curious Larry--is the rusty shed on your property that 7+ acres out among several other rural large create houses? Or the one you live in?


The rusty shed is in the backyard of my home in Phoenix. My property in Yavapai County is 40 acres and the only structure on it is a port-a-potty.

JaneJ2 (Arizona)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Larry, I did suspect from your first comment that you did not live inside an HOA, and I am not surprised that you directed your realtor not to show you homes in HOAs. Thanks for clarifying.

With all due respect, your comments are irrelevant to this thread. We have had homes, both in and out of HOAs, and I am familiar with the benefits of each option. In cases where people choose an HOA, they have a reasonable expectation that the BoD abides by the CCRs that govern that community.

I am quite familiar with Phoenix and know there are many neighborhoods there without HOAs with a wide diversity of neighborhood standards and quality. This is quite a different situation than in the East Valley where most neighborhoods are newer (15 years or less) and are governed by HOAs that share similar restrictions.

Again, your hostility to HOAs and any governance that limits your use of property is not uncommon, and I have no problem with your thoughts since you have chosen that type of neighborhood for residence.

But your attitudes and experience cited are irrelevant to the current question and the facts of the situation involved. You are mixing apples with oranges.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JaneJ2 on 01/11/2017 6:36 AM

But your attitudes and experience cited are irrelevant to the current question and the facts of the situation involved. You are mixing apples with oranges.

I disagree.

The question, as I understood it, was how do sheds impact home value.

Larry's experience with, what he describes as, a rusty shed (an example of what many would prefer not to have in their development)is that it had little to no impact on the homes monetary value.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Jane says an interesting thing and that basically is: When one signs onto an HOA they expect that HOA to enforce their Covenants, Bylaws, R&R's even when some others may disagree. One can argue the value of sheds but if the docs say no sheds than that is the way it must be. No sheds.

Those signing on also know docs can be changed and they have to accept this.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 01/11/2017 7:03 AM
Jane says an interesting thing and that basically is: When one signs onto an HOA they expect that HOA to enforce their Covenants, Bylaws, R&R's even when some others may disagree. One can argue the value of sheds but if the docs say no sheds than that is the way it must be. No sheds.


Yes, but in this case the OP says the board granted waivers to allow the offending sheds, which are apparently allowed up to a certain height. The OP does not indicate whether she made any objections to the requests for waivers but she still has the option of going to court to enforce what she believes to be the restrictions.
JaneJ2 (Arizona)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Yes, Tim, the question did has how shed impact home value - with respect to the HOA situation as defined.

Larry's essential bottom-line response is...
Yuk, ugh, evil, awful, terrible...hate HOAs...and I have made sure to never, never, never buy in one. Based on his personal animus to HOAs and admitted refusal to engage with them, he has disqualified himself. By virtue of his mindset and experience, he has defined any fight over CCRs as trivial and the petty hobby of people without a purpose in life. While he is entitled to his opinion, it has no place in this thread.

He has failed to entertain the situation presented and has wasted our time with his personal diatribe against HOAs and his pejorative insults of HOA members and our claim that the CCRs mean something.

And...most importantly...the value of his home - outside of an HOA - does not pertain to this situation. Home values for appraisals are impacted by many things, including the quality and upkeep of a community relative to comparable communities in the market area. Again, Larry fails to address this. His main argument is...yuk, ugh, evil, awful, terrible...hate HOAs.

This begs the question...why would a person with this mindset post over 3,000 times on a website dedicated to discussions impacting those of us who live in an HOA? And...why does the moderator permit this?
JaneJ2 (Arizona)
Posts: 10
Posted:
John, as an addendum...an email I received yesterday from HOA Prop Mgmt said the maximum height of backyard structures is 10 ft., but that the BoD considers storage sheds on a case-by-case basis. Our walls are 6 ft., offering a 4 ft. height OVER the adjacent wall. CCRs (per above) state unequivocally that the sheds should be LOWER than adjacent wall.

CCRs have one section addressing backyard gazebos, patios, awnings...etc...which gives the BoD greater latitude in approval. Perhaps this generates the 10 ft. restriction.

CCRs have a different section addressing sheds: must be lower than adjacent walls.

JaneJ2 (Arizona)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Kerry, your evaluation is one that I hold...all things being equal...dollar for dollar I would pay more for the home in the HOA where I did not see storage sheds. My husband questions what the general view of neighbors and others might be. Thus I presented this question here.

I do not dislike every storage shed. We have owned sheds in other neighborhoods where they were permitted. However, the consensus of most HOAs in our current city is that sheds are a negative influence on property values and CCRs limit and restrict use of sheds. Our one HOA is breaking with this standard, setting us up as a singular HOA with storage sheds...highly visible throughout the community.

That is the basis of this question: how might this policy impact property values in our HOA with sheds...versus similar homes in HOAs without sheds.

Hopefully, people responding to this question. Thank you.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
First, Larry's example of the increase of his home's value may have nothing to do with hihgly-visible backyard sheds. For all we know, neighborhoods without sheds, especially unsightly ones, property values may have increased fractionally MORE than his---all else being equal. We do not know.

If I had a choice between an HOA with limitations on sheds re: appearance, etc., and one that had none--like Larry's, all else being equal, I'd stay away from views or potential views of trashy, visible sheds. Pretty sure I'm not alone in that preference.

IMO, Jane, you & like-minded neighbors need to put pressure on your Board to adhere to your CC&Rs re: sheds.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JaneJ2 on 01/11/2017 2:57 PM

Larry's essential bottom-line response is...
Yuk, ugh, evil, awful, terrible...hate HOAs...and I have made sure to never, never, never buy in one. Based on his personal animus to HOAs and admitted refusal to engage with them, he has disqualified himself. By virtue of his mindset and experience, he has defined any fight over CCRs as trivial and the petty hobby of people without a purpose in life. While he is entitled to his opinion, it has no place in this thread.

He has failed to entertain the situation presented and has wasted our time with his personal diatribe against HOAs and his pejorative insults of HOA members and our claim that the CCRs mean something.

And...most importantly...the value of his home - outside of an HOA - does not pertain to this situation. Home values for appraisals are impacted by many things, including the quality and upkeep of a community relative to comparable communities in the market area. Again, Larry fails to address this. His main argument is...yuk, ugh, evil, awful, terrible...hate HOAs.

This begs the question...why would a person with this mindset post over 3,000 times on a website dedicated to discussions impacting those of us who live in an HOA? And...why does the moderator permit this?

Jane,

I don't like HOAs. They can be good but when volunteers with an agenda become board members, they can be nightmares.
This is why when I purchased my retirement home, I would have preferred to purchase into a development without an HOA.
However, having the knowledge of Assocaitions, and the assistance of this site with all of the different perspectives, I purchased into an Association that has zero amenities and minimal common area (entrance sign). However, as in all Associations, due to membership apathy those who are willing to serve do serve and some have an agenda. Fortunately, I have gained knowledge to deal with this.

Larry does live in a POA (property owners Association), which has some of the same issues as those who live in HOAs or COAs.

I find his points very helpful and his knowledge of statutes helpful.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LarryB13 on 01/11/2017 7:13 AM
Posted By JohnC46 on 01/11/2017 7:03 AM
Jane says an interesting thing and that basically is: When one signs onto an HOA they expect that HOA to enforce their Covenants, Bylaws, R&R's even when some others may disagree. One can argue the value of sheds but if the docs say no sheds than that is the way it must be. No sheds.


Yes, but in this case the OP says the board granted waivers to allow the offending sheds, which are apparently allowed up to a certain height.

The OP also specified that the authority to provide waivers was within the governing documents.

During my house search, I was looking in one Association that had a similar provision. I chose not to purchase there because of that provision.
As John pointed out, had I purchased I would have to expect that some variances would be granted at some point in time. I was also aware that once a variance is granted for one, it would have to be granted for others and thus make several provisions of the CC&Rs mute.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
This is HOATalk.com. One hundred percent of the discussions on this site involve homeowners who have problems with their HOA. During the years I have followed this site no one, including the OP in this thread, has ever posted that they were completely satisfied with their association. Maybe somewhere there is a site called HOALove.com, but I certainly do not find that here.

I also have yet to find a site for people to complain about their lack of an HOA, although that topic sometimes slips in here. In general, those of us who do not feel the need to be told by other adults how to live our lives are quite satisfied not having an HOA. In my part of the country we have Federal, State, County, and City governments to deal with already; we have no need for a private unregulated entity to add to our burdens.

Just to clarify matters, I live in a 40-year-old subdivision that has CC&R's but no HOA. I own rural property in another county where there is a property owner's association that operates under the same statutes as an HOA does. The nature of that development is that the properties were sold as undeveloped 36-acre and larger parcels. The primary function of the association is to maintain about 300 miles of dirt roads.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Larry wrote: "One hundred percent of the discussions on this site involve homeowners who have problems with their HOA." That's simply not true. My false fire alarm subject seeks ways to understand it, but it is not a "problem." Many posts here are about getting clarity or knowledge about our HOA,s not problems we have.

I have owned in many non-HOA neighborhoods over many years and have seen many "problems" that I see on this forum often having to do with dogs, trash, parking, noise etc. Those are not unique to HOAs. But, IN GENERAL, the solutions are available more readily in an HOA than a non-HOA.
JaneJ2 (Arizona)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Kerry, yes, we are beginning the process of bringing this situation to attention of homeowners and getting their input. With that we will better understand how to address the BoD.

Comments from you and others are intended to provide a backdrop for this effort.

Tim, you were very thorough in your reading the CCRs. This is a very important caution for others when they consider a neighborhood with an HOA. In our HOA, the authority for waivers is one simple sentence couched in a long paragraph in a mundane article about selection of the Design Committee. As buyers, we all tend to focus on the use restrictions and overlook the importance of every detail in the CCRs.

Perhaps this is obvious, but I’ll point out two additional cautions. In the case where waivers are an option for BoD to change use restrictions:
1. Even if the HOA currently enforces the CCRs as written, it only takes a change of a few people on the BoD to get a “waiver-friendly” policy. With quorum for a vote, as few as 3 people can accomplish this.
2. If a BoD uses waivers to avoid/change CCR use restrictions, homeowners may be unaware of this for many years. In a large HOA, we all have a few streets we drive in and out, and we may not see evidence of these changes until quite a number of sheds (or any other change) are already present in the HOA.

Thanks to all who have commented or may do so. You have been helpful, and I will share HoaTalk with neighbors for this and any other HOA questions.

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