Trucks - again

Started by DanM9 • 64 replies • 4765 views

💬 Join us to post & get advice from 50,000 HOA & Condo leaders.

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in

DanM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 23

Posted:

Hi,

I found this forum while researching an issue I am having at our condo association. I appreciate the fact that this group is level-headed, knowledgeable, and has a focus on just doing things right.

Our small (26 unit) townhouse complex in MA has a rule that simply says "no trucks". There is nothing specific about pickups. The complex was built in the late 80s. I have been there 20 years and have served on the board twice. I am currently NOT on the board.

I bought a pickup (Ford F-250), fully knowing about this rule. Let me state right now I did not do this to be confrontational and cause a ruckus. My wife and I had the opportunity to leave our jobs and travel for awhile, so we bought an RV trailer, a pickup to pull it, and headed off. My attitude was that I'll do what I need to when we return, and if that involved storing the pickup elsewhere, so be it. This all came together quickly and we were doing this trip - worry about the truck later.

However, I have always thought that the "no trucks" rule was vague and that pickups should be allowed. My reasoning is that SUVs are classified as light trucks and have always been allowed. So, before I even purchased my pickup, I asked the board about pickups and presented my case about why they should be allowed. I didn't get a straight answer. I definitely didn't get a no. The board had meetings which I hear were, um, very contentious. I then bought my pickup, we headed off, and are still travelling the USA after 4+ months.

During the trip, thru email, the issue got hotter because my neighbor also had a pickup. The management company (MC) started sending out emails warning owners about trucks.

Two months after we left (Sept '16), the MC sent an email to owners reminding them about the "no trucks" rule, and said that a vehicle is determined to be a truck by looking at the vehicle classification on the registration.

I immediately sent an email to the board asking about this new rule. I asked about what specific info in the registration we should look at and what info actually determines that a vehicle is a truck. It wasn't obvious looking at my registration. I never got a response.

About two months after that (Nov '16), my neighbor gets a letter threatening to fine him if he parked his pickup in the parking lot. I immediately sent another email to the board asking the same questions about the registration. The MC responded and answered the question. I informed the MC that SUVs are actually classified as trucks, and they are in denial.

We plan on being back home in mid-Jan and I am hoping to get this resolved before we return. I am not optimistic as the MC is being firm. Again, if I need to store the pickup elsewhere, I will. I feel strongly about the "no trucks" rule being so vague that the board is guilty of selective enforcement, and will argue this - to a point.

I have sent an email to the board asking for a change in the bylaws to allow pickups. Our bylaws allow a change with a majority vote of the owners.

In anticipation of the questions you will ask me, I will say that unfortunately I do not have a copy of our bylaws. They are old and there is no electronic copy that I am aware of. It was the late 80's and all I have is a printed copy at home.

So, I have a few questions.

1. Is a rule that simply says "no trucks" enforceable if the association allows SUVs and other light trucks? I am not denying that my vehicle is a truck. I am arguing that other trucks have been allowed and that nothing in the bylaws allows SUVs and disallows pickups.

2. Hypothetical situation: Suppose an HOA specifically allows pickups. The, the owners vote a rule change that bans pickups. Do owners that already own pickups have to abide by that new law? Or are they grandfathered in?

3. Followup to #2: In my case, there was no clause that mentioned looking at a registration to determine if a vehicle is a truck. The board came up with this method after I bought the pickup. Am I bound to this clause? Even if it is not in the bylaws?

4. In this forum, I found a related topic dealing with a commercial vehicle. A forum member mentioned that his bylaws allowed the board to define commercial vehicles even when the bylaws did not (if I read it right). Is this correct? Can the board just ignore the fact that SUVs are classified as light trucks?

What I am asking is, I'd like to know what my options are. If I don't have a chance, I'd like to know that. I am not the kind of guy that likes to rattle cages and feels rules do not apply to him. I believe in a society where people get along. I also feel that the rules as written are so vague that they are unenforceable with regard to pickups, given that SUV's are allowed.

Anyways, I think that's it. I appreciate your input.

Thanks.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Here is your solution. Change the rule. It's possible and sounds like needs changed. No trucks should mean the "Utility/Work truck". They should not refer to "Passenger trucks". Which your vehicle does not have a work sign on it nor is used in the process of earning a living. Plus vehicles are usually required to be parked inside a garage or designated areas depending on your HOA's set up. Truck doesn't fit in the garage may cause an issue with that rule.

A HOA members can change the rules by a majority vote of the owners. It takes a lot of work but read your documents. The vote may call for a special meeting for the purpose of taking the vote. (Which can sometimes be avoided in certain conditions). It may require 51 to 100 % of the entire HOA to vote to change it. There are rare occasions that it may be a board decision. Which in the end the cost of legal drafting, filing, and copies will be paid out of your HOA budget. Any changes in the CC&R's need to be put on file.

Sometimes a HOA has a ridiculous rule. No reason if a majority of owners think it's a dumb rule, they can't get together and get rid of it. Plus what punishment do you face by not following this rule? It should be the board doing the enforcing unless they have a contract with the management company to do so. The board should have an appeal process for violations. Plus they have to have the right to fine and a fining schedule to issue them.

Former HOA President

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

What Melissa said. This probably won't get fixed by the time you return, so when you get home, plan on making the rounds in your community talking to your neighbors about changing the rule or at least making it more specific.

While you're at it, please keep the layout of your community in mind - I'm sure you don't have monster trucks in your community but if everyone gets one, there may or may not be issues with traffic flow on the street as well as creating blind spots that can cause accidents. I would suggest petitioning the board for a special homeowner's meeting to discuss the issue.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

ND (PA)
Posts: 792

Posted:

I'd start by trying to figure out the intent of the original "no trucks" rule. Based on the layout, space, and/or aesthetic of your community, "no trucks" might have been intended to mean a variety of things:

- Is the intent to prevent owners from having/parking small to large pickup trucks?

- Is the intent to prevent commercial trucks/vans with their typical lettering and accessories (roof racks, attached equipment, etc.).

- Is the intent to prevent larger package trucks, delivery trucks, tractor trailers?

It would also be interesting to know the entirety of the "no truck" rule as well as other rules that might come before and after it which might help with context.

Once intent of the original rule is established, then hopefully folks can come up with a reasonable rule revision and/or "truck" definition.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Dan,

You don't need to change the covenants or Bylaws.
The Board can do this by simple resolution to clarify what the term "truck" means.

Bring your information with you about SUVs being classified as trucks (something from DMV would be good).

Then bring these questions to the board (not the MC):

If, as the MC states that Trucks are defined by DMV and registration, why is the Board opening the potential for litigation by selective enforcement and not insisting SUVs also be removed from the development?

However, if the Board believes that the intent of the covenant/bylaw, is to keep out commercial vehicles, then why not adopt a resolution to clarify what the definition of trucks are?

here are some actual examples:

Permitted and Prohibited Vehicles
Only approved non-commercial vehicles may be parked in Rhygate. An approved vehicle is defined as any conventional passenger vehicle, motorcycle, personal-use van seating no more than ten persons, or pickup truck that is not a “commercial vehicle” as described below:
No trucks (except non-commercial pickup trucks), cargo vans, limousines, trailers (whether attached or unattached to a motor vehicle), motor homes, house trailers, campers, or other recreational vehicles may be parked overnight. (See Appendix A, attached.) “Commercial vehicles” are those within one or more of the following categories: (a) vehicles marked in any
way as commercial (e.g., painted signs/logos, commercial license plates or commercial numbering, taxicabs, etc.); (b) vehicles with a gross weight of more than 7,500 pounds; (c) vehicles equipped with any commercial add-ons (e.g., racks for storing ladders, roof-top flashing lights), or (d) vehicles that have any visible business, trade or job-related equipment stored in or
attached to the exterior of the vehicle (including within unenclosed truck beds), such as ladders, pipes, tools, signs, pipes, plumbing supplies, mechanical or electrical equipment, construction supplies, etc. Owners/occupants may be granted approval to park an otherwise excluded vehicle overnight to accommodate an out-of-town guest or for other temporary reasons upon showing of
adequate justification by making a written request to the Board of Directors.

Vehicle Policies another example

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Dan,

Several years ago in Florida there was a similar case in which an HOA prohibited parking "trucks" outdoors while allowing SUV's to do so. One owner took the association to court and won. The case was Eagles Master Association v. Vizzi. (I attempted to attach a pdf of the circuit court's opinion but it is too large for this site.)

There is a website with and several other HOA parking cases at
http://www.ccfjfoundation.net/COURTOPINIONS.htm

Of particular interest is the case found at http://www.ccfjfoundation.net/courtdecpickup.html

DanM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 23

Posted:

Thanks very much for your responses, I appreciate the input. Let me answer some questions and fill in some holes.

@MelissaP1: I have taken the first step to changing the rules by asking the board I wish to do so. I think there is a meeting planned for sometime in Jan '17 and this issue would come up then. That's a long term solution, and I really don't know how a vote would go. I think a rule change would pass.
However, my concern is when we finally return and my truck is in the lot. Given the attitude I see now, I would immediately get fined, so I'm seeking solutions to that. For example, is what they are doing allowed?

Regarding the MC, I asked why they were involved because I believed this is a board issue. The MC said that this is part of the service they are providing to the association.

@SheliaH: I do plan on doing some lobbying when I get home.
We are out in the semi-boonies, have our own parking lot with assigned spaces, and pickups would not impede anything.

@ND: Ah yes - intent. The association is ~30 years old, and nobody was around when the rules were written. In fact, I would guess that owners never had any input to the rules at all and the doc was just a boilerplate doc that the developer got from a lawyer. If you ask someone about intent, their answer always reflects their feeling towards pickups. The anti-pickup crowd is so focused on pickups, they don't care about intent. It's almost scary.
Personally, I think the intention was to keep work trucks out of the lot, and I have expressed that feeling to the board.
Here's what the rule says:
The common parking area shall not be used for any purpose other than to park passenger automobiles excluding trailers or boats and trucks and commercial vehicles unless same are on the premises for business purposes.

@TimB4: Interesting comment. After I told the board that the current rule was vague and ambiguous, months later they finally introduced something like you just suggested - a manner to clarify what is a truck by using registration info. Of course, this manner is tailored to specifically exclude my pickup.
You said: "If, as the MC states that Trucks are defined by DMV and registration, why is the Board opening the potential for litigation by selective enforcement and not insisting SUVs also be removed from the development?"

Is that true? Is that potential for litigation?

SUVs are classified as light trucks by the US government, not state's DMVs. I believe using a federal standard is better anyway because we have people with out-of-state plates, which could lead to inconsistencies.

Thanks for the examples, I'll take a look and possibly suggest them to the board.

@LarryB13: HA! I am very familiar with the Vizzi case and the other case you pointed to. There is another case in NY where the association lost to a "no trucks" rule.
http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2015/09/setllement_reached_in_manlius_pickup_truck_case.html

=======================================================================================

Some additional info...
The anti-truck sentiment is mostly based on the redneck factor, from what I have heard from a board member.
Our 5-member board is currently at 4 members - one member quit because of all the hostilities around pickups. At least two members are pro-pickup.

Does anybody have a comment on my questions #2 and #3?
I am very curious where I stand when the rules change in a way that makes my vehicle non-desirable. Can an existing car be banned with a rule change? Or are they grandfathered in?

Thanks again very much for taking the time to respond.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DanM9 on 12/02/2016 2:41 PM

You said: "If, as the MC states that Trucks are defined by DMV and registration, why is the Board opening the potential for litigation by selective enforcement and not insisting SUVs also be removed from the development?"

Is that true? Is that potential for litigation?

Selective Enforcement is a defense that can be used in court against the Association on enforcement issues.

Quote:

Posted By DanM9 on 12/02/2016 2:41 PM

I am very curious where I stand when the rules change in a way that makes my vehicle non-desirable. Can an existing car be banned with a rule change? Or are they grandfathered in?

Thanks again very much for taking the time to respond.

Grandfathering is not automatic. It has to be written into the resolution or adopted in general within the governing documents.
So yes, a rule change can have affect on existing items if the Board does not take into account what to do about them when drafting the language.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DanM9 on 12/02/2016 2:41 PM
Does anybody have a comment on my questions #2 and #3?
I am very curious where I stand when the rules change in a way that makes my vehicle non-desirable. Can an existing car be banned with a rule change? Or are they grandfathered in?

I am not sure you are asking the right question. Where does the board derive its authority to ban certain types of vehicles?

You, as an owner, have an undivided property interest in all the common areas, including the parking lot. The Declaration would normally be the source of a restriction on what you may park on your property. The association has no authority to enact rules on its own initiative about what kinds of vehicles may be parked. If the board woke up one morning and decided to prohibit trucks the question of grandfathering would be moot; the board is acting beyond its authority.

All of the case law I am familiar with has resulted from language in the Declaration and not from rules formulated by the board. Words such as "truck," "commercial vehicle," and "work van" are so vague that they cannot be enforced unless there is further explanation (and there never is). The Declaration was a public notice to buyers about what is allowed on the property. The courts generally hold that only clear and unambiguous language can be enforced.

DanM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 23

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LarryB13 on 12/02/2016 9:21 PM

"Vague and ambiguous" are the first words I used when I wrote my first email to the board, and I have repeated those words many times since.

Apparently, the board seemed to agree, because they finally made an attempt to define what a truck is. TimB4 above stated that the board has the power to define what a truck is, and also mentioned that the definition they came up with could be construed as selective enforcement.

The reason I asked questions 2 and 3 is because I want to know what my options are. The board was initially unresponsive to my questions, and the MC has taken over the discussion with me. Since the board appears to be digging in its heels and ignoring the fact that SUVs are trucks, I'm looking additional ways to prove my point.

Regarding the MC, I have no idea right now who is talking when they send me responses. I don't know if it is only the MC talking, or if they are consulting with the board before responding to me. When I send a response, I copy all the board members, even though the MC asks me not to. The MC is newly hired as of the beginning of the year, along with a completely new board (a whole other story...).

Funny thing is, out of the four people on the board, I know one person is definitely pro-pickup, I think one is pro-truck, one is undecided, and one is vehemently anti-pickup. I don't know if the MC is telling them what to do or where the MC responses are really coming from. There are at least two very vocal owners (and ex-board members) that are anti-truck - vehemently so.

Here's what I think will happen.
The board will not budge an inch.
I return.
If I park my pickup in the lot, I will get fined.
I have a lawyer get started.
Hopefully, the rule gets changed in Jan

As I mentioned above, my neighbor (and good friend) also has a pickup and is involved. I told him I would split the legal fees with him. Probably the best thing to do would be to get a lawyer involved now. I can't do much from where we are on the road, so I'm hoping my neighbor can do something. I was hoping the board would at least communicate with me, but they have resorted to dealing thru the MC.

Again, thanks for your input. I wanted to present all the info I have to you and find out if I'm being reasonable in my logic. So far, I really haven't heard anything negative, which actually surprises me. I thought for sure someone would say "well, they can do that, you're SOL", and I haven't heard it. Please, if I'm off-base with anything, let me know. I'm not looking for sympathy or allies, I'm looking for honest advice, and if someone tells me I'm being a jerk or I don't have a prayer, I really want to hear that.

Thanks again, and have a great weekend. Looks like lots of rain here in Louisiana......

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

Another BIG issue:

Some, not all, SUVs are DOT classified as 'light truck'.

If the SUV (such as a Dodge Caravan) was built upon a truck chassis then is would be classified as a light truck.

However, many SUVs are built upon passenger vehicle chassis and therefor are classified as passenger vehicles.

This DOT information (Dept. of Transportation)is found on the driver door 'sill'.

FYI -

There are MANY safety related differences between a light truck and a passenger vehicle.

A 'biggie':

A passenger vehicle can NOT roll over on dry level asphalt, unless it hit something, no matter what one does with steering or braking.

MANY trucks can be made to flip simply by braking and steering - try a '360' from speed with a Ford Explorer or a Jeep (amongst many others).

So, for most SUV lovers, y'all may be in fact driving NON PASSENGER SAFETY rated trucks. Like it or not, it is fact.

BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DanM9 . . . So, I have a few questions. . . .
your # 2. Do owners that already own pickups have to abide by that new law? Or are they grandfathered in ?
your # 3. . . .The board came up with this method after I bought the pickup. Am I bound to this clause? Even if it is not in the bylaws ? . . I am not the kind of guy that likes to rattle cages and feels rules do not apply to him. I believe in a society where people get along. I also feel that the rules as written are so vague that they are unenforceable with regard to pickups, given that SUV's are allowed.

DanM9(Mass) Some good comments above about truck wars.

1 - Respectfully it may be a stretch (above) to consider that the Orlandos & their Ford F-150 WON the Kimry Moor truck war (Syracuse NY). Unless it is a victory to declare "We've had enough" & move south in 2015 to Florida leaving their attorney to work out a recent confidential settlement. Aug 20/15 “CNY couple who couldn't park their pickup in driveway has had enough; they move out” http://www.syracuse.com/ news/index.ssf/2015/08/couple_sued_over_parking_pickup_in_cny_driveway_says_the_pressure_forced_us_to_m.html

These outcomes & governing documents may be 'all over the map' a.k.a. idiosyncratic, eccentric etc.

You are very wise to plan for undesirable outcomes & be pleasantly surprised if the community does the sort of periodic re-examination to helpfully bring old restrictions lawfully up to date with the way society has changed.

You might consider - respectfully - that photos showed the Orlandos' Ford F-150 at Kimry Moor was being parked NOT in a common lot - more readily noticed - but at the end of a mutual drive shared with just one neighbour in a low density community. Lots of grief even there ; hope it was worth it for them.

2 - Your second question about "grand-fathering". It is far from a slam-dunk and often applied to minimize divisive disputes during some sort of rule revision process.

Whether it should be allowed for BRAND NEW exceptions - not saying your vehicle is such - is a different matter.

Also worth considering if someone may want to do the same to change some sort of rule that you might not be happy with eg NEW front yard basketball / hockey court ? There is a two edged sword.

3 - Differentiating vehicles : It isn't a bad idea & may get some judicial appreciation that a credible formula be platformed or implied into a Rule if it it can be shown as reasonable & compatible & platformed by Declaration & state law etc.

But there may be no magic wand to wave about that formula, as the various dispute have evolved.

4 - I'd personally love to afford a much bigger tractor in our low density waterfront subdivision. But far from beefing, my neighbours would likely be dancing with joy & want me to loan it . . .

BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002

Posted:

addendum : the Syracuse link I provided no longer reaches the August 2015 story but it can be reached by Dan M9's quoted later article : http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2015/09/setllement_reached_in_manlius_pickup_truck_case.html

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Dan,

You initially posted that you were willing to park your truck off site.

Now, because of your neighbor, you're willing to go to court?

DanM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 23

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BobD4 on 12/03/2016 7:53 AM

Thanks. Yes, I consider those cases Pyrrhic victories. They won, but it took so long and must have been so disrupting to their lives.

I'm trying to be as realistic as possible about what may happen, and will prepare for the worst. Frankly, I'm not that optimistic. I feel the board/MC is not very open to discussion and will do anything to force their view. See next post for more.

Thanks,
Dan

DanM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 23

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 12/03/2016 8:09 AM
Dan,

You initially posted that you were willing to park your truck off site.

Now, because of your neighbor, you're willing to go to court?

A little foggy, was in New Orleans last night.....

Lawyer? Yes.
Court? I really can't answer that.
Let me explain.

I avoid conflict. I really am a non-confrontational guy. I have never hired a lawyer, never even considered hiring a lawyer my whole life, except in a house closing. That's it. So, this whole lawyer thing is new to me. But if I truly think I'm right, I will confront.
Throughout this whole truck episode, I learned that it's like a chess match. I make a move, now it's their turn. They make their move, now it's my turn.
I write a letter.
They say trucks are banned.
I explain my reasoning - vague rule, SUVs are trucks, etc.
They introduce the registration clause.
Now it's my turn. Since they seem set in their ways, my only choice is to park the truck in the lot, or park it elsewhere. Assume I park it in the lot.
Then wait for their response, which will almost certainly be a fine.
Then, I guess I lawyer up. Here's why.
There are two possible paths this issue can take.

1. Maybe I'm right, maybe my arguments are valid from a legal point of view.
I feel the board/MC just wants me to go away. It's the easy solution for them. So they keep ignoring me and eventually, fine me. It's an easy solution for them. "Ignore anything Dan has to say, we don't want pickups. We're the board and we have the power". There are virtually no repercussions for a board if they fine someone for no reason. So, why not? In 99.999% of the time, the owner will back down because they have no choice. Yes, they can go to court, but that costs money, time and aggravation. The board knows this, and again, there are no repercussions unless it goes to court, so they keep hammering away until the owner backs down.
So yes, we will get a lawyer, have him send the board a letter, and see what their next move is.

2. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there is a gaping hole in my logic. Maybe the board/MC has consulted with a lawyer knowledgeable in MA law and are absolutely right.
That's one reason I am here, to see if my reasoning is sound. There is a lot of knowledge and experience here, and I'm sure one or two of you have had a truck issue. If someone here said that I had a very weak argument, I would stop right there, find a place to park the truck, and get on with my life. I wouldn't waste any more of my time, or more of yours. Right now, I really haven't heard anything negative from anybody here, and as I mentioned before, I'm actually surprised. The one negative is a painful law suit - and that truly is a negative.

So, there you are. Probably more than you expected. ;-)

Thanks again everybody, I really appreciate the input.
Dan

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Does your HOA have the right to fine? If so, do they have a fining schedule put out? Fines are like "speeding tickets" for a HOA and are punitive in nature. Just because your documents say "No trucks" what is the punishment for doing so? Don't be a jerk about that but simply point out that having such a rule is great and all that but did anyone actually follow through on what can be done? Not every HOA can or has the right to fine. If they can, then it has to be defined and fall within that state laws.

Also fines can not be the basis of liens/foreclosures in many states. A few HOA do some "creative" accounting of which they take your dues and apply them to their fines against you. That way it appears you are not paying your dues. Something I am totally in disagreement about but it does happen.

I for one have never been a proponent for fines in a HOA. My HOA we never did fines even though we legally could do so. We just wrote a letter detailing where in the rules the violation came from. Gave them time to fix the issue. If they did not, then we had the power to fix the issue ourselves on our dime. Which meant if we fixed it, the bill would be sent to the owner to pay up. If they refuse to pay, then we had the power to lien for that amount owed. That is because it's considered "damages" to us. Something we could choose to sue over as well.

Suing your HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors. So you know the consequences of lawsuit. I find instead in situations like this, it should be changed to "Submitting a vote to your membership, will get the change that you want". It will take work. It will also in the end need HOA board approval as they will need to pay for the lawyer, filing fees, and distribution costs of the new laws.

Former HOA President

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Trucks can be a hot subject. One HOA I was in did not allow commercial trucks/vehicles and defined such as:

1. No business signage no matter the size and this included Mom Soccer Van Types, SUV's. Basically any vehicle with such.

2. No commercial apparatus like ladders, ladder racks, obvious power equipment, etc.

3. No more than 4 wheels. This was to allow big pickups like Ford 250. We did make exceptions for 6 wheel pickups like Ford 350's but over 4 wheels had to have a written exemption from the BOD.

4. We did not go by commercial plates as in SC any vehicle can have a commercial plate as it allows it to be parked in Commercial Vehicle Loading/Unloading Zones.

Some discussions we had:

1. Safety vehicles like Police Cars had signage. We allowed such.

2. Emergency vehicles like ambulances. They were difficult.

3. A Ford Escape with a business name on the rear window. We ruled it commercial as it had signage. The owner bought a magnetic, blank sign to cover the rear window sign.

4. A Smart Car with a business wrap around sign. Again, commercial. Not allowed.

DanM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 23

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/04/2016 8:36 AM
Does your HOA have the right to fine? If so, do they have a fining schedule put out? Fines are like "speeding tickets" for a HOA and are punitive in nature. Just because your documents say "No trucks" what is the punishment for doing so? Don't be a jerk about that but simply point out that having such a rule is great and all that but did anyone actually follow through on what can be done? Not every HOA can or has the right to fine. If they can, then it has to be defined and fall within that state laws.

Also fines can not be the basis of liens/foreclosures in many states. A few HOA do some "creative" accounting of which they take your dues and apply them to their fines against you. That way it appears you are not paying your dues. Something I am totally in disagreement about but it does happen.

I for one have never been a proponent for fines in a HOA. My HOA we never did fines even though we legally could do so. We just wrote a letter detailing where in the rules the violation came from. Gave them time to fix the issue. If they did not, then we had the power to fix the issue ourselves on our dime. Which meant if we fixed it, the bill would be sent to the owner to pay up. If they refuse to pay, then we had the power to lien for that amount owed. That is because it's considered "damages" to us. Something we could choose to sue over as well.

Suing your HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors. So you know the consequences of lawsuit. I find instead in situations like this, it should be changed to "Submitting a vote to your membership, will get the change that you want". It will take work. It will also in the end need HOA board approval as they will need to pay for the lawyer, filing fees, and distribution costs of the new laws.

I don't have all the rules with me, but I have a snippet the MC sent me and the board does have the power to fine. Theven snippet states "reasonable fines", so there is no fining schedule.

Thanks.

DanM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 23

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 12/04/2016 9:50 AM
Trucks can be a hot subject. One HOA I was in did not allow commercial trucks/vehicles and defined such as:

1. No business signage no matter the size and this included Mom Soccer Van Types, SUV's. Basically any vehicle with such.

2. No commercial apparatus like ladders, ladder racks, obvious power equipment, etc.

3. No more than 4 wheels. This was to allow big pickups like Ford 250. We did make exceptions for 6 wheel pickups like Ford 350's but over 4 wheels had to have a written exemption from the BOD.

4. We did not go by commercial plates as in SC any vehicle can have a commercial plate as it allows it to be parked in Commercial Vehicle Loading/Unloading Zones.

Some discussions we had:

1. Safety vehicles like Police Cars had signage. We allowed such.

2. Emergency vehicles like ambulances. They were difficult.

3. A Ford Escape with a business name on the rear window. We ruled it commercial as it had signage. The owner bought a magnetic, blank sign to cover the rear window sign.

4. A Smart Car with a business wrap around sign. Again, commercial. Not allowed.

Regarding the 6 wheel rule, doesn't that put the board in a bind? I mean, rules are there so the board doesn't have to make judgements, and now the board could potentially allow one owner to have a 6-wheel truck, and deny another owner. Isn't that inviting trouble?

And I feel your pain with the special vehicles, especially emergency vehicles for work. It really puts the board in a bind where you are making exceptions.

Thanks.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Dan

The BOD should always be allowed to make exceptions if for no other reason, they cannot possibly cover everything. Any BOD, that tries to cover everything is inviting trouble.

In our discussion we could agree that 4 wheels were fine but the crossover came with 6 wheels. I think you see my point on a 6 wheel Ford 350 dressed as a pleasure vehicle is not a commercial vehicle as that exact vehicle was the reason we did not limit it to 4 wheel vehicles only.

An exception should always be documented as well as the reasoning behind it.

DouglasN4 (Missouri)
Posts: 27

Posted:

My HOA has a rule that clearly states no trucks over 1 ton capacity and/or duelly rear wheels...unless they can fit inside the garage with the door closed. Which is how they MUST be parked.

But now we have an owner who parks his Semi truck on the streets. He wants to change the rules to allow it just for him. Question is...if that line is crossed its no turning back. Next comes boats and RVs.

Soon our quaint condo community ends up like a truck stop.
(60 townhouse units, 19 total buildings) with narrow streets.

I say you abide by the rules you agreed to or move somewhere that doesn't have restrictions on the kind of vehicles YOU want to drive.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Doug,

Is that a rule (i.e. a resolution) or is that within your covenants?

I ask because each board can adopt or change resolutions.
The membership has to amend the covenants.

DanM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 23

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DouglasN4 on 01/06/2017 8:03 PM

I say you abide by the rules you agreed to or move somewhere that doesn't have restrictions on the kind of vehicles YOU want to drive.

Doug,

Please read the thread again, you missed some details. Let me do a quick recap.

We have a rule that simply says "no trucks", which is vague. We don't have a rule like yours which is more specific.
My argument is that the US DOT classifies virtually all modern day SUVs as trucks, and if the board wants to ban pickups, they also have to ban SUVs. That won't happen as lots of owners have SUVs.

Of couse, the solution to this is to write a better rule. We have a meeting in a month in which there will be a discussion and a vote to change the rule - somehow.

DouglasN4 (Missouri)
Posts: 27

Posted:

TimB4

Its a rule, bylaw, covenant. Not sure the exact term but its condition that is clearly defined by the Association. Along with things like keeping the trash bins in the garage, no antennas on the front slope of the roof, no exterior mods that have not been approved, no planting of trees/shrubs that are not approved.
I believe the head board member refers to these as bylaws.

DouglasN4 (Missouri)
Posts: 27

Posted:

DanM9

Most modern SUVs today are actually CUVs. A car that sits high like an SUV. Vehicles like Ford Escape, Hyundai Santa Fe, Toyota RAV4...all CUVs.
Escalade, Suburban, Explorer, Hummer...SUVs. on truck frame.

If you're driving an F250 that is a TRUCK. What you're asking for is the Association to make an allowance for you. You already knew it was problem when you bought it. But now you want all members of your community to accept it.
What's next? Parking your camper trailer there...even if its just for the weekend? Then your neighbor wants his boat allowed so he doesn't have to pay a storage fee some where off site?
See where I'm going? Its a slippery slope that can bring a neighborhood down quickly.
Obviously you've done well in life financially to afford such luxuries. Why not be a good neighbor. Either adhere to the rules of your HOA or buy a new home where there are no restrictions on the kinds of vehicles you want to own.

btw...I personally own a truck (Dodge Ram) and a car. They are both in the garage every night.

DanM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 23

Posted:

Doug,

The DOT calls them trucks. Also, the DOT has no concept of SUVs or CUVs. SUV/CUV is strictly a marketing term. If you'd like, I can send you a number of links explaining how the DOT classifies light trucks.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DouglasN4 on 01/07/2017 6:49 AM
TimB4

Its a rule, bylaw, covenant. Not sure the exact term but its condition that is clearly defined by the Association. Along with things like keeping the trash bins in the garage, no antennas on the front slope of the roof, no exterior mods that have not been approved, no planting of trees/shrubs that are not approved.
I believe the head board member refers to these as bylaws.

Douglas

Typically Rules & Regulations are made by the BOD and do not need owner approval. The BOD can also change them as they wish. R&R's cannot override Bylaws nor Covenants. BOD's often get in trouble by overriding Bylaws and Covenants with R&R's. Quite often unpopular R&R's are passed by the BOD the owners will gather support to replace the BOD and/or some members and rescind the R&R.

Bylaws and/or Covenants require members (owners) to vote on and typically will require a majority of all owners (sometimes as high as 90%) approving them for them to pass.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DouglasN4 on 01/07/2017 6:49 AM
TimB4

Its a rule, bylaw, covenant. Not sure the exact term but its condition that is clearly defined by the Association.

A covenant would be located within the CC&Rs
A Bylaw would be located within the Bylaws
A resolution would be a located in a different document.

Some Associations may publish all of the documents together and provide them to the member.
If this occurs, there should still be a starting and stopping of each document.

DouglasN4 (Missouri)
Posts: 27

Posted:

DanM

So your goal is to have the Association define "truck".
And if they use the MA DOT definition then what will you do?

DanM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 23

Posted:

Here's my goal.

I'd like to amend the rules such that the rules recognize the fact that pickups are an every day vehicle for many people and non-commercial trucks should be allowed. The intention of the rule should be that working trucks are prohibited.

People on this board have been very helpful and have provided examples of rules that attain that goal.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

An F250 with signs is a commercial vehicle. An F250 with no signs is not a commercial vehicle.
A Ferrari with signs is a commercial vehicle. A Ferrari with no signs is not a commercial vehicle.

In one HOA we had a rule of no overnight parking of a commercial vehicle in one's driveway. We had an issue with two identical vans. One had no signs on it. One had signs as an airport shuttle. We ruled one a commercial vehicle and one not. Not that difficult. The airport shuttle finally gave in and parked it in their garage. Problem solved.

In SC one can have a commercial license plate on their vehicle which allows them to park in One Hour Commercial Loading Zones. It was meant for the small business owner to load and unload their vehicle. The Ferrari with no commercial signs but a commercial license plate would still not be a commercial vehicle to the HOA. Do not let the state define such.

DanM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 23

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 01/09/2017 7:00 PM
An F250 with signs is a commercial vehicle. An F250 with no signs is not a commercial vehicle.
A Ferrari with signs is a commercial vehicle. A Ferrari with no signs is not a commercial vehicle.

In one HOA we had a rule of no overnight parking of a commercial vehicle in one's driveway. We had an issue with two identical vans. One had no signs on it. One had signs as an airport shuttle. We ruled one a commercial vehicle and one not. Not that difficult. The airport shuttle finally gave in and parked it in their garage. Problem solved.

In SC one can have a commercial license plate on their vehicle which allows them to park in One Hour Commercial Loading Zones. It was meant for the small business owner to load and unload their vehicle. The Ferrari with no commercial signs but a commercial license plate would still not be a commercial vehicle to the HOA. Do not let the state define such.

John,

I agree with you. Our issue right now is more with the definition of trucks, rather than commercial vehicle, though our bylaws are vague in the definition of both.

DouglasN4 (Missouri)
Posts: 27

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DanM9 on 01/09/2017 4:01 PM
Here's my goal.

I'd like to amend the rules such that the rules recognize the fact that pickups are an every day vehicle for many people and non-commercial trucks should be allowed. The intention of the rule should be that working trucks are prohibited.

People on this board have been very helpful and have provided examples of rules that attain that goal.

Ok but be aware that if you get your way that everyone in the complex could park their F350 Duelly on the premises. Hey, its what they like to drive as an everyday vehicle. I see no problem with that if your fellow HOA homeowners agree.

DanM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 23

Posted:

No problem here. I'm willing to limit vehicles to 4 wheels.

You know why? Because visually, there is no difference between an F250 and an F350 - except for the "F350" emblem.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Dan

We never got into it about what is a truck. We went by the amount of wheels and and advertising on the vehicle. While I did not mention it earlier we also had restrictions on vehicles carrying commercial/equipment (such as ladders, pipe racks, etc.).

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

No edit

It appears your association would classify say the Honda Ridgeline or the Ford Sport Trac as
a truck and those examples may aid you in convincing them that simply saying "no truck" is not the way to go.

DanM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 23

Posted:

John,

I agree. Also, as previously mentioned, virtually all SUVs are classified as trucks, and nobody wants to ban SUVs.

Thanks again for your input.

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

Yet they ARE, in fact, presently banned in your HOA.

Comply - Sue - Move

Pick one and then be silent.

DanM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 23

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PitA on 01/11/2017 2:07 PM
Yet they ARE, in fact, presently banned in your HOA.

Comply - Sue - Move

Pick one and then be silent.

One more - change the rule.

DanM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 23

Posted:

OK, an update.

We had our annual meeting tonight, and I went down in flames.

I attempted to propose an amendment to our rules to allow pickups with certain restrictions. I needed 67% of the beneficial interest to pass it, and it had no chance. I have a question now because I apparently misunderstood something.

We have our master deed, which is the legal document containing our "no truck" rule. We also have a Resident's Handbook that contains other rules. Here is a quote from the beginning of this doc:

It [Resident's Handbook] is a supplement to the legally binding Amended Master Deed, Declaration of Trust and by-laws and is meant to reflect the intention of those documents. It also contains additional Rules and Regulations that have from time to time been made by the Trustees. Any and all stipulations contained in the Amended Master Deed, the Declaration of Trust and by-laws, but not included in this Handbook, remain in full force and are not diminished in any way by this document. In case of discrepancy or lack of clarity between the Resident Handbook and the governing documents, the Amended Master Deed, the Declaration of Trust and by-laws prevail.

This doc contains a vehicle section that has this paragraph:

Without prior written permission of the Trustees, parking on the premises outside of garages is limited to currently registered passenger automobiles (including minivans and SUVs) with no commercial lettering or markings and in good operating condition. Trucks, commercial vehicles, trailers, campers, motorcycles, mopeds, snowmobiles, junk vehicles or parts of vehicles, boats and personal watercraft are specifically excluded.

JohnC46 said this above:
Typically Rules & Regulations are made by the BOD and do not need owner approval. The BOD can also change them as they wish. R&R's cannot override Bylaws nor Covenants. BOD's often get in trouble by overriding Bylaws and Covenants with R&R's. Quite often unpopular R&R's are passed by the BOD the owners will gather support to replace the BOD and/or some members and rescind the R&R.

My impression was that the Resident's Handbook was overriding the Master Deed and therefore not valid. The Master Deed simply said "no trucks". The handbook goes into more detail and I thought the details were simply some writer's interpretation of the rules - not real rules. Since the handbook rule overrides the master deed rules, I figured the handbook rule was not valid and that the only rule was "no trucks". My argument then was that the rules were not being uniformly enforced since SUVs are trucks, etc.

So, here's my question: Is this Resident's Handbook valid? Can it override the Master Deed?

The management company was at the meeting and he explained that the handbook was a living document that could be updated to keep current with the times. When he said that, I gave up.

The vote was overwhelmingly anti-pickup, enough to actually change the master deed to specifically exclude pickups, so eventually I'd be out of luck. If the owners had to actually change the Master Deed, it would buy me some time.

I have to say, some of these owners have pretty high opinions of themselves. Some of the comments were over the top. We're talking about townhouses that go for $400K+ in the greater Boston area - not exactly expensive for the area at all.

Thanks,
Dan

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Dan,

Thank you for the update.

DanM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 23

Posted:

I meant to add one more thing.

I've always been suspect of the legitimacy of this Resident's Handbook, at least with regard to the vehicle section. It was created about 15 years ago by a board that tended to be self-serving and had control issues. They were excellent at maintaining the property, but I felt went overboard with regard to the rules, IMHO. They were going to do things their way, and if someone crossed them, they immediately issued fines. I was on the board for three years with them, but was merely a token member, as three out of the five had control. They would fine people without me even knowing about it. Having that board was a two-edged sword - they did well in some aspects, but pissed off people in other aspects.

Now, the handbook does have some rules that I feel are legitimate. There is a rule requiring certain documents from contractors that I agree with because there is nothing in the master deed about that. Also, there is a rule about leasing (one year minimum) which I agree with for the same reason.

However, I always felt the vehicle section in the handbook was merely their interpretation of the vehicle rule in the Master Deed and not legally binding. They molded the handbook to what they wanted with no input from the owners. (Of course, if they took input from owners today, pickups would not be allowed). That's what I think, anyway, maybe I'm being a bit too ignorant (never a good thing). Still, I was always suspect of that board and a recent audit of our books by the new board showed that they may have taken liberties with some money, which actually surprised me.

Something else doesn't make sense to me. My email conversation with the board and the MC concentrated on the master deed "no trucks" only and never mentioned the handbook. They denied that a Ford Expedition was a truck, and I replied with about a dozen links proving it was. This is when they came up with a new rule about looking at the MA registration for the vehicle classification which I contested. Why would they do that and not simply point to the handbook if it were actually valid? Doesn't make sense. The MC surprised me at the meeting when he mentioned the handbook, so I backed down.

Anyways, I still have a question.

With regard to the vehicle section, is this Resident's Handbook valid? Can it override the Master Deed and specify what vehicles are not allowed. Can they say they did this for clarity and, as the intro to the handbook says, "reflects the intention of those documents"?

Sorry, but I need closure and there are a few loose ends that are bugging me. I may need a quick consult with a lawyer just so I feel better about this.

Thanks,
Dan

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

DAN

Does each townhouse have a garage? While I do not agree with the limit on trucks, one could always park in their garage so in some senses, not a total ban on trucks.

Typically the first thing said in a handbook it that this publication does not override Covenants, Bylaws, R&R's, etc. If a conflict arose, I am sure the answer would be the docs rule, not the handbook. The handbook is someone's interpretation and as such, not always correct.

BOD can make R&R's but no R&R can override a Covenant nor a Bylaw. If I follow you correctly the truck ban is in the docs and as such would require a majority of owners to change it.

I say you BOD could make a R&R to clarify the definition of a truck. They might be on thin ice, but I think it could be done. The only problem would be someone suing claiming the R&R is overriding the no truck's stipulation in the docs.

Maybe the answer is get yourself and like minded thinkers on the BOD and "clarify" what is a truck with a R&R.

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

You need to look at the exact wording in your governing documents ... not the R&R's. If your HOA allows SUV's then I would ask where is the BOD's common sense? More and more HOA's are loosing these cases when they end up in a court of law. One example in a FL case the Judge stated:

"Virtually all sport utility vehicles (SUVs) are truck-based, and almost all are larger than this pickup,'' Shutter wrote in his ruling. "Cultural perceptions evolve and change. Personal-use pickup trucks do not carry the negative implication they might have 25 years ago. In no way could the parking of these vehicles interfere with the quiet enjoyment or the property values of the condominium residents.''

http://www.ccfj.net/HOAFLpickup.html

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Dan

Good catch from Linda. Maybe you might want to copy it and distribute it to BOD Members and others. Maybe do a mass mailing to all HOA Members.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Make that good catch from Janet. Use it.

DanM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 23

Posted:

@JohnC46: Yes, we have garages. However, we have a convertible we keep in ours, plus the pickup doesn't fit anyway. The common refrain from the pickup haters was that pickups weren't banned, they just had to parked in the garage, like putting the red-headed stepchild in the closet.

@JanetB2: Common sense? HA! Common sense never came into play. I presented everything to the owners you suggested - SUVs are truck based, the FL legal cases, etc. - plus a lot more. The owners wanted nothing to do with any of that. The amount of hysteria around pickups was absolutely mind-boggling. I'll give you some examples below.

As far as getting like-minded individuals on the board, that won't happen. Out of 26 units, I could only muster up 8 people that would vote with me. There is a core group of about 5-6 people that created all the anti-pickup hysteria, there are a few that just don't want them, and I think there are a number of people that don't really care that much but simply vote against it because there is no upside for them. There were enough people against pickups that if you were on the board, you would have to respect the owners wishes regardless of how you felt.

Just for fun, I'll fill you in on the details of how things went down.

The meeting was planned on 1/30. The MC agreed to take statements from both sides and send them out to the owners. I wrote the statement for pickups.

Two weeks before the meeting and before those statements even went out, the crazy lady distributed her own statement on everybody's doorstep. Here's are some excerpts:

"Now imagine my son takes up off-roading and buys a large pickup with those wonderful oversize tires and puts an ATV with all the attendant tools and gear on the back deck of the truck. Since he offroads as much as possible all year round, the vehicle is always covered in mud.....even without snow, its size will present a major obstacle to the sidewalk of your units.....When it snows, you will be blocked out.....Furthermore, the rule change, if it goes thru, opens the door to all kinds of potential issues.... As soon as someone with a different skin color or sexual orientation or religious belief or whatever challenges the rules, we could be facing a discrimination lawsuit."

Seriously, I'm not making this up.

So, about a week before the meeting, the MC distributes both statements to the owners. The statement from the anti-pickup guy is filled with grammatical and spelling errors. Some excerpts (these are copied with cut&paste so all errors are the author's):

"Communal living is not easy but without rules there would be kayos. There are many reason to uphold the pick up truck rule, ladders, trash, storage, tool boxes, oversized tires, loud exhausts to name a few. I am sure you can let your imagination visualize those vivid images. Do you want to open your door every day and see a pick up truck? My biggest problem is that we all have a garage (but one unit) so use it then this rule would not be an issue. This obviously would open the door for other rules changes, pets, holiday lighting, trash pickup and any other rule that someone doesn't like or want."

"- Logistics and Safety. There isn’t a lot of room to maneuver around here as it is. A truck too big to fit in agarage and therefore not parked in a garage will just add to the congestion and possibilility of an accident."

I love this quote:
"Parking a truck in almost any other parking area is likely to result in some level of incontinence or annoyance to other unit owners."

"But if we open the doors to more trucks who can say what the next ones may look like, where they will be parked or how they may be used. As an example consider the possibility any of these truck’s back deck is full of trash, tools/equipment, ladders, wheelbarrows, all terrain vehicles, motorcycles and so on. Lots of people who own pickup trucks have them for just those purposes. How will you feel about that appearance? And if you don’t like it how do we police it? More rules?"

"Until now and for at least the last 20 years we have had virtually no owners who have pushed back on the no trucks rule. Are we ready to open the doors to what could be a very slippery slope to 3 or 5 or more trucks with all the inherent logistics, safety and appearance issues mentioned above. All problems start small. Let’s not let this one become a problem at all. It really is a slippery slope with no upside."

Then, about 3 days before the meeting, another owner sent out an email. Some excerpts:
" It has been stated that pick-up trucks are now mainstream passenger vehicles. From our numerous visits to other high-end condo/townhouse communities like VHP (Vickery Hills, Mallett Woods,The Preserve, Walden Woods) and travels through our neighborhoods of Highland Park and Highland Ridge) that does not seem to be the norm. Outside of landscape and contractor pick-up trucks, personal pick-up trucks are virtually non-existent. This may be because truck owners in those communities are just following their community requirements to park their trucks in their garages. It may also be that people need vehicles that can accommodate 5+ passengers as they undertake the day to day functions of life -- not the 2 passenger capacity of pick-up trucks. Regardless of the reason, the evidence in these high end communities does not support pick-up trucks as mainstream passenger vehicles."

I pointed out to the author that he visited communities that banned pickups and maybe that was why he didn't see any. Also pointed out that my pickup seats 5. Deaf ears.

"Pick-up trucks are generally understood as having a functional and utilitarian purpose that involves hauling cargo or towing vehicles, boats, etc. Do our current/future Board members -- really any of us -- want to get involved in policing the contents/cargo of our neighbor's truck or what they are towing? Would ATVs, boats and other types of sports equipment be okay? What about appliances, large tools or tool bins, patio or other furniture? Who would define and decide this? Would we need to create new rules and regs and change the master deed to reflect the requirements for cargo or towing?"

I told the author that *any* vehicle in the lot was capable of towing a trailer. Also, my proposal included a stipulation that the cargo bed be covered.

" We have significant concern about setting a precedent. Changing rules/regs./master deed is a serious responsibility that requires taking a long term view of the vision and value of life at XXX. Our rules and regulations and master deed have been put into place over many years to preserve and maintain the tranquil beauty and value of all of our homes. If we are to change the "pick-up trucks must be garaged" requirement, then we will likely open the flood-gates and find ourselves dealing repeatedly with owners seeking more changes to rules-- that may be personally beneficial to them-- but may not serve the much larger common good of XXX. Do we want to be regularly dealing with owners seeking changes in rules re-- the number of pets/roaming pets, landscaping, contractors being able to work at our homes 7 days a week at any time of day, the assignment of parking spaces, common space usage, etc., etc.? "

Anyways, I addressed all their concerns.
Size - An SUV can be as big as a pickup
Big tires, mud - Jeeps or any SUV can have big tires and be muddy
Junk in the bed - my proposal required beds to be covered with a hard top, cap, or tonneau cover.
Loud exhaust, ladders - any vehicle can do that

In other words, nothing unique to pickups, just pure hysteria.

So, that's what I'm dealing with. I hope you were entertained.

Again, I thank you all for your input, offering advice, and giving me an outlet to vent a bit. ;-) I truly appreciate it.

Thanks,
Dan

DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724

Posted:

I can't imagine a world without my truck. Good luck.

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DouglasM6 on 01/31/2017 1:59 PM
I can't imagine a world without my truck. Good luck.

LOL same here ... We are from Colorado ... Almost everyone has a truck.

🎯 You've read this entire discussion

Join the conversation with 50,000 HOA & Condo Leaders:

✓ Ask follow-up questions
✓ Share your experience
✓ Get expert advice
✓ Access 350,000 discussions

Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in here