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FredB4 (Ohio)
Posts: 375
Posted:
This is a problem mostly (but not always)with owners who rent their unit in our condo association.

For example ...the A/c unit in the top floor unit becomes clogged and leaks down into the unit/s below causing water damage. The owner is informed that they have caused damages to the unit/s below and are responsible for the repairs, but then they don't make any effort to fix the problem leaving residents with damaged walls, ceilings and possible mold issues.

We have had conflicting advice on whether, under these very limited circumstances, the Association can provide owners with phone numbers and email addresses so they can contact the responsible owner. When the responsible owner doesn't live in the community it seems like they feel they can get away without paying for the damages because it is easier to keep avoiding contact when all that is available is the mailing address.

While this type of thing is usually an owner to owner responsibility, water damage that isn't properly handled can lead to mold and other issues which can not only affect other units but areas (inside the walls and ceilings etc.)that are common elements of the building and are an Association responsibility.

I'm wondering how other condo associations handle these situations. Does the Association get involved by giving out the phone numbers & email addresses along with other contact info, act as a go between, pressure the responsible owner to make repairs or just let the owners try to work it out?
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Fred

I would make owner information available then back off. It is an owner to owner (likely via insurance companies) situation. It is not a BOD issue.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
I agree. This is an insurance issue.
JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880
Posted:
Owners have a right to see association records such as name and address, so that should be provided. I would have no problem providing emails and phone numbers as well. (The alternative is to pass messages back and forth, but why bother?)

You are right that there are common element areas involved, so the association should see that it is taken care of. I disagree with those who say to stay out of it. It is not just an owner to owner problem, although the association can limit itself to concerns of the common elements.

How do you know the upstairs owner is liable? Maybe the tenant did something negligent and you have to go after the tenant. Maybe the owner did not do anything to make him/her liable. Many people think that if a leak starts in an upstairs unit, that the upstairs owner is automatically liable, but that is not usually the case. Your upstairs owners may be quite correct to not offer to pay any damages or to contact anyone.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JeffT2 on 11/13/2016 12:48 PM
Owners have a right to see association records such as name and address, so that should be provided. I would have no problem providing emails and phone numbers as well. (The alternative is to pass messages back and forth, but why bother?)

You are right that there are common element areas involved, so the association should see that it is taken care of. I disagree with those who say to stay out of it. It is not just an owner to owner problem, although the association can limit itself to concerns of the common elements.

How do you know the upstairs owner is liable? Maybe the tenant did something negligent and you have to go after the tenant. Maybe the owner did not do anything to make him/her liable. Many people think that if a leak starts in an upstairs unit, that the upstairs owner is automatically liable, but that is not usually the case. Your upstairs owners may be quite correct to not offer to pay any damages or to contact anyone.

I agree it's best to keep the association out of this and let the insurance companies duke it out, but people who rent out their units are still ultimately responsible for what goes on it. Remember, the tenant isn't the owner - he/she wouldn't be there if the owner hadn't rented out the unit in the first place. At the very least, owners should let the association know who's living there as well as educate the tenant on community rules. He/she should also insist on renter's insurance because most of those policies have some sort of liability coverage if their misuse or abuse of the property causes damage to the unit.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I actually mentioned this quite recently to Jeff in a different thread: In our urban high rise HOA and those HOAs that neighbor us, Owners are responsible IF it's shown that their personal property or residents' behavior caused damage to other units or common areas.

In Fred's case, I think others are correct. The Owners' insurance companies need to duke it out.

IF, however, the condo's clogged AC unit causes damage to the common areas, our HOA does the following: repairs the common area and bills the Owner. If the Owners or their insurance do not pay, we remove recreational common area privileges from the unit (per our CC&Rs). We've never had to go beyond that.

In a recent case, an Owner's employees dumped a great deal of balcony-mopping water that splattered and messed up several floors newly washed windows below (which only can be done from the exterior, so the HOA pays to clean them). We did not charge the Owner the usual fine, $100, but did charge him $875 for the window washers returning & using our swing stage equipment to redo several windows.

Whatever the issue, In CA, Owners' privacy is protected and I doubt that we (our PM) would ever give one Owner the phone # or email addy of the other.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Regarding Fred's original question, I recall seeing this a few times when I was on the board, and in one case, I think the board had the manager send the owner a copy of the complainer's letter with his/her contact information, reminding the owner this situation isn't association responsibility and strongly urge the owner to contact the complainer to settle it. A copy of that letter also went to the complaining homeowner. We didn't hear from anyone after that, so apparently the problem got resolved.

You might want to post an article on your website or newsletter (both, if you have them) talking about repairs in general and reminding homeowners of the board's expectations, emphasizing what is and isn't the association's responsibility. Neighbors are expected to resolve private disputes between themselves, including those involving someone renting a unit. You could also tell homeowners that the property manager may send a courtesy notice to them if someone has a complaint about their tenants - beyond that, the association will not get involved. The complaining owner must provide her/his contact information, otherwise the association will not send ANY notice (and the homeowner will have do whatever he/she deems necessary).

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JeffT2 on 11/13/2016 12:48 PM
Owners have a right to see association records such as name and address, so that should be provided. I would have no problem providing emails and phone numbers as well. (The alternative is to pass messages back and forth, but why bother?)

You are right that there are common element areas involved, so the association should see that it is taken care of. I disagree with those who say to stay out of it. It is not just an owner to owner problem, although the association can limit itself to concerns of the common elements.

How do you know the upstairs owner is liable? Maybe the tenant did something negligent and you have to go after the tenant. Maybe the owner did not do anything to make him/her liable. Many people think that if a leak starts in an upstairs unit, that the upstairs owner is automatically liable, but that is not usually the case. Your upstairs owners may be quite correct to not offer to pay any damages or to contact anyone.

I agree with JeffT2. Pursuant to the law on record viewing, association records, including owners' contact information, are supposed to be accessible to any HOA member. My HOA requires members to sign that they will not use this information for harassment. But one owner contacting another about damages the second owner's lack of care caused is not harassment. I would argue a Board even has a fiduciary duty to assist owners in resolving these issues. As some here have already pointed out, this is about property values.

Typically a HOA's governing documents also have statements about one owner not being a nuisance to another owner. "Nuisance" is discussed at length in case law. The scenario Fred describes sounds like it is a nuisance, or very close to one, to me. Often the governing documents add that one member has a right to take legal action against another for violations of the covenants. This is even more justification for a HOA providing contact information of one member to another member.

If the governing documents have a procedure for complaints and enforcement, the members whose units are being damaged could consider submitting a complaint of nuisance to the Board and, where the governing documents allow, ask for enforcement. Granted the two members' insurance companies may have to duke it out on the costs here, but this is separate from a Board requiring one member not to be a nuisance to another member.

Fred's board could ask the HOA attorney about this. I would include all of the elements I describe above in the question to the attorney.
FredB4 (Ohio)
Posts: 375
Posted:
Thanks everyone for the helpful replies.

It has always been my understanding that phone numbers and emails were private, although I've had conflicting views when it comes to providing them under this type of circumstance. The group also seems too have conflicting views as well.I agree that the insurance companies should handle the problem, but again the question comes up as to whether the Association provides the phone numbers to the insurance companies.

We have always held owners responsible for their tenants. This is in keeping with our documents and legal advice, so if a tenant damages the common areas the owner is the one responsible for making restitution to the Association. Certainly the A/C unit is the property of the unit owner so in this case it should certainly apply. In this case the tenant and owner both are at fault because the tenant refused to turn off the leaking A/C unit when the problem was discovered and the owner didn't immediately fix the problem causing additional damage.

With water damage, mold in the walls and ceilings is a potential health and safety issue for the whole building. My feeling is that if the Association doesn't get involved there is no way to know if the repairs and water restoration have been handled properly. Certainly as Kerry, Augustin and Jeff suggest, it would seem that the Association should at least take care of the common areas.

It is a complicated issue.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Fred

If there is damage to common areas, the BOD should become involved. The advice not to become involved is if it is only a neighbor to neighbor situation.
FredB4 (Ohio)
Posts: 375
Posted:
John
Thanks for clarifying that point.
BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By FredB4 on 11/13/2016 7:14 AM
This is a problem mostly (but not always)with owners who rent their unit in our condo association. . . just let the owners try to work it out ?

FredB4 Ohio : IF the damage or loss itself would trigger corporation master insurance for common element and/or basic unit damage, your issue respectfully is not about disclosuring personal data.

It would be about who makes what insurance claim to whom & who will suck up the insurance deductible ? A good approach is whether the loss is an insurable loss; if so whose policy ? ; can we slope-shoulder the deductible lawfully anywhere else ?

You need to fit damage facts into whatever your state laws & governance documents classifies this sort of loss. As noted above mere first time damage occurring isn't necessarily blameworthy, but insurers may be allowed to subrogate or recover the payout (after making the victims whole ) unless your jurisdiction bars subrogation. ( A way to circularly keep payout costs within a community )

Respectfully you need to also check how your jurisdiction handles a corporation's scope to refuse to make a claim under its master policy, consequences of such - eg loss below deductible - & whether a valid deductible transferring by-law is in place.
FredB4 (Ohio)
Posts: 375
Posted:
Bob
Thanks for the reply and info.

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