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JK7 (California)
Posts: 22
Posted:
I am a board member of a Condominium Complex.

Long story short, a condo owner inappropriately tried to fix a plumbing issue by himself thereby causing a flood into the lower unit. (He did not shut off the water before he removed a pipe)

The owner of the lower unit filed a claim with his insurance at the advice of our inept management who never even notified us of the event.

The insurance company started an extensive demo of their client's entire kitchen and other areas of the unit and then stopped work. Our Board then received the flowing notice requesting that we file the claim will the Association's master carrier for settlement:

..."Your governing documents require that Unit owners policies contain a waiver of subrogation, which would prevent USAA from recovering from the responsible party. Moreover, it has come to our attention that the unit owner that caused damage to our insured does not have insurance."...

..."Additionally, as our insured was the unit affected by this loss and was not the source of the loss, it would not be typical nor have I found language in your governing documents that would substantiate that the deductible for the master policy would be the responsibility of my insured to bear."...

..."At this point in time, USAA is formally requesting that you file the claim will your master carrier for settlement."...

The unit owner's insurance started the demo and then decided that they would not cover the expense.

We the Association would rather have not gone through the Association's insurance to pay for the cost. Although the Association did not cause the problem, it would have been better if the Association had been given the opportunity to decide to fix the unit without insurance. Yet now we are roped into a more costly situation because of the damn insurance stuff.

Did USAA use reasonable standard of care before they had demolition crew come out to gut an entire kitchen and then to discover they will not cover?

Our board never had the opportunity to do our due diligence to investigate the matter.

Is it appropriate for them start acting on a claim and then midway decide against it and then rope some other entity's insurance to cover?

How do we respond to this?
JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880
Posted:
You really need to file a claim with your insurance, and let them take care of it, and seek their advice and explanationts. There is a lot to determine, and a lot of misleading info in the quote from the owner's insurance.

Do you have insurance for the units? Is this insurance on the units primary? Was there damage to the common elements between the units? Does your insurance have a waiver of subrogation against owners? Does your association have a policy concerning who pays the deductible?
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I'm with Jeff. You might want to contact your HOA attorney too.
MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 494
Posted:
Sounds like USAA is a crappy company. They should be continuing the work to make their customer whole, and then go after the unit owner who caused the issue, and any deeper pockets as necessary
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I don't see this where the HOA insurance should be involved accept maybe in some minor issues outside the unit. Seems to me the two owner's insurances should sort this out. The HOA responsibility should stop at the door so to speak. That's just my opinion and experience.

We had a tree fall on a house from a neighbor's yard. The owner who had the tree did not have insurance. The house that was struck did. The HOA was responsible for the tree clean up portion of the damages. It was a tree on our common area. However, after that the fence and house damages was to be sorted out between the 2 owners. The HOA does not own the house nor the fence the tree fell on. All that is the owner's responsibility.

Former HOA President
DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046
Posted:
Part of the reason you have insurance is to defend against claims from other parties, including homeowners. Personally, I would contact the association insurer and let the insurance companies duke it out between them.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JK7 on 10/18/2016 5:44 PM
Our board never had the opportunity to do our due diligence to investigate the matter.


Your board delegated its authority to a management company you now describe as "inept." The management company knew of the flooding and resulting damage; in its capacity as your delegated representative, the management company advised the homeowner to take certain actions. Your board is responsible for whatever acts the management company you hired did or failed to do. You were deprived of "the opportunity to do our due diligence to investigate the matter" entirely by your own failure to supervise the actions of the management company. Neither the homeowner who caused the flood, the homeowner who suffered the damage, nor his insurance carrier is responsible for your own negligence.

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
I have to question why the person who filed the claim with their insurance carrier, why their insurance carrier isn't fighting
the at-fault party. I thought that is what we pay insurance for, let them fight it out.
JK7 (California)
Posts: 22
Posted:
I'm learning that filing a claim is a can of worms. The at fault party didnt have insurance and the way it works is that the insurance goes after the entity with the deep pockets. In our situation, our Association is the deep pocket at the brink of going bankrupt however. It may have not even mattered the at fault party carried insurance because it's about DEEP Pockets.

I recently went to a seminar held by my own insurance company for my private business and the title was "settling stinks before insurance"
JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880
Posted:
Subrogation means the insurance company goes after the at-fault party. Waiver of subrogation means that the USAA insurance company has waived its right to go after the at-fault party so they cannot recover from the at-fault party, and they stated this in the quote you gave.

Normally, a condo association's insurance covers the common areas and sometimes covers the units. Does your association have coverage of the units? The requirement would mostly likely be in your declaration, and it would certainly be in your insurance policy. You need to check those docs for language that the association must cover the units.

You should also check to see if your insurance coverage of units is primary, which means your insurance would pay and USAA would not.
JK7 (California)
Posts: 22
Posted:
Thank you JeffT2 for your interpretation of the waiver of subrogation.

However, what I am wondering is why they didnt investigate this before they gutted the entire kitchen? They acted on a claim expecting to recover loss from the upstairs unit owner, but discovered they couldn't go after them for the loss. So now the entire Association is responsible.

Does an insurance company have the responsibility of asking the Association to see if we would like to use our insurance before they act on the claim like gutting an entire kitchen?

JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880
Posted:
I'm not sure USAA did a bad job or not. A few comments:

An insurance company is supposed to respond quickly and provide assistance to the insured. They are supposed to cover the insured and try to recover whatever they can later, which is what they did. This is generally considered a good thing. If somebody did not do something right away, then you would get mold, which can raise costs dramatically.

Your association's responsibility does not depend on how they went about it. USAA did not make you responsible. Your governing documents make you responsible or not responsible.

The owner with the loss and USAA should have contacted the association right away, but then again, your manager already knew about it, so maybe that is not the insurance company's fault and they did not have that obligation.

As far as demolition goes, we usually do some demo if we have a big leak. It is better in some cases to remove the ceiling and wet walls in order to prevent mold, which is otherwise inevitable in some walls. Sometimes floors, too. And sometimes it is not possible to restore wet things (e.g., particle board in some kitchen cabinets), so they get ruined and need to be removed. On the other hand, some contractors do way more than they should, since insurance companies pay for it, especially in emergencies like leaks.

You can always disagree with the demolition and not cover it.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
My belief is USAA should make the owner (their insured) whole (make the repsirs) then go looking who to subrogate with. USAA is just trying all (the association for one) on for size.
JK7 (California)
Posts: 22
Posted:
Our CC&R is silent on who pays for the deductible. Can we bill the at fault party the deductible?
MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 494
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JK7 on 10/20/2016 8:06 PM
Our CC&R is silent on who pays for the deductible. Can we bill the at fault party the deductible?

Yes
JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JK7 on 10/20/2016 8:06 PM
Our CC&R is silent on who pays for the deductible. Can we bill the at fault party the deductible?

It's highly unlikely your association has authority to bill them for that.
JK7 (California)
Posts: 22
Posted:
This is what Davis Stirling Act says:

http://www.davis-stirling.com/tabid/1657/Default.aspx

Owner Responsibility. Assuming the CC&Rs are silent on the issue, boards may adopt a policy in the Rules & Regulations that any loss attributable to an owner that results in a claim against the association's insurance, the owner shall pay the deductible. The policy can be added to the Rules but amending the CC&Rs makes the policy stronger. Any such amendment should make it clear that owners pay the deductible when they are responsible for the loss, either because of their own negligence or because something under their control failed (such as a dishwasher, toilet valve, etc.)
JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JK7 on 10/20/2016 11:02 PM
This is what Davis Stirling Act says:

http://www.davis-stirling.com/tabid/1657/Default.aspx

Owner Responsibility. Assuming the CC&Rs are silent on the issue, boards may adopt a policy in the Rules & Regulations that any loss attributable to an owner that results in a claim against the association's insurance, the owner shall pay the deductible. The policy can be added to the Rules but amending the CC&Rs makes the policy stronger. Any such amendment should make it clear that owners pay the deductible when they are responsible for the loss, either because of their own negligence or because something under their control failed (such as a dishwasher, toilet valve, etc.)

This is good advice from a law firm that specializes in condo/HOAs. (Just to be clear, it is just advice, but not actually the "Davis Stirling Act".) It means that Mark was right that you can bill that owner, but I was right that it's highly unlikely your association has authority to bill them for that, yet, until you make that policy. One of my first questions was if your association has a policy for who pays the deductible.

You have another option that is easier: don't do anything about the deductible -- stay out of it. I'm assuming your association has insurance on the units (not just the common areas). So make a claim and provide that insurance and make sure it is used to rebuild the damaged unit. Your association does not have to pay the deductible. The owner of the damaged unit has to deal with and pay the deductible, and his/her insurance will most likely pay the deductible.

Does your association have coverage on the units?

Is this insurance on the units primary?

Does your association's insurance have a waiver of subrogation against owners?

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