Clarification: Recount / Inspect Voting Ballots

The outer envelope is as important as the ballot as it validates the voter.

We believe the voting was fixed so I and one of the inspectors wanted to check the envelope to compare the return address to the post mark. If return address was from out-of-town and post mark was local we'd have possible fraud. I believe both the envelope & ballot have to be save for 1 yr. Suspicion on the # of votes rec'd - 54/60. 20 are non-resident owners. Usually 30-35 are received for any vote. We're (myself and the other 2 guys)are trying to do what's right but it's hard when mgmt and 3 BODs are fighting you. I'm trying to determine if envelopes can also be examined........

I've only been there 2 yrs and I'm concerned with all that's going on here including the recently voted CC&Rs that were accepted. That's another nightmare. I believe we're looking at a possible lawsuit.

And Stan, a friend of mine ran for BOD 2 years ago, he went to the HOA office to watch the ballot count.
when he arrived 30 minutes before the ballots was to be counted, the envelopes was all opened and the
ballots was technically already counted..

I would not jump to that conclusion unless all were post-marked on the same day at the local post office or there is some other irregularity.

The real value of the envelopes is that it allows you to contact each voter and verify that he did mail in a ballot. Since the voting is supposed to be secret you have no way of forcing a member to disclose who he voted for but you can always ask. If everyone says they voted for Bob but the official tally puts Bob dead last, then there is a problem.

Stan: "Suspicion on the # of votes rec'd - 54/60." OK, so this means 54 of your qualified home voted. That's a very nice turnout, but I don't think it's suspicious.

Your postmark theory doesn't seem plausible. For one thing, in CA the return address must be the voter's HOA address, plus their signature must be on the outer envelope. If not, I believe the ballot is invalid.

Btw, we have 30% non-resident owners and they vote. We also have about 11% who live here part-time.

Richard seems to know the part of civil code which states HOA voting materials must be kept ala public elections. Perhaps he'll share that civil code # with us.

Meantime, Stan I think you said that there ends up bring 5 to vote for, but you only elected three. Does that mean there's a vacancy? How many directors do your Bylaws say you should have.

There is a procedure for opening the envelopes and separating them to maintain voter secrecy and confidentiality.

I should stay away from CA "stuff" but it seems clear to me keeping the ballots means the ballots and nothing else.

Not sure o how you do it as a PM, Richard, but our ballots peer the Board's striation are held secure in our PM's office. Every day they count the ballots and thus know when quorum is met. Our HOA's quorum of 52, for example, was well-exceeded several days ago for our 10/27 election. If it hadn't been, our PM would have sent out an e-blast reminding Owners to vote. So that's one way to know quorum has been met.

Another way is the ballot count itself. How may ballots are there? We use three inspectors who sit at a table in public space outside our meeting room. Any Owner may observe the envelope opening, etc. One opens the outer envelope, which constantly are shuffled, a second opens the ballot envelope and the 3rd tallys the votes. The ballots are, then, completely separated form the outer envelope, which must have the HOA address & Owner signature on it.

Our MC's CEO, our PM, our asst. mgr. and our HOA attorney attend. The latter advises the inspectors in cases of irregularities. We have, for instance a few Owners who own 2-3 condos. They tend to want to stuff all 2-3 ballots in one envelop, on which only one of their HOA addresses appear.

Richard wrote: "While the statues may not explicitly say that envelopes need to be preserved, common sense does. My job is to look to protect the Association. Before you question whether their is a state statue out there, ask your own MC what their [sic] procedure would be to protect YOUR Association."

Despite the bluster and distractions, it now seems clear that CA in fact, does not require the HOA keep the outer envelopes. Does not matter if it's "common sense" to do so. But this means that I don't think Stan has much chance reviewing the opened envelopes. and this thread is about his dilemma.

Your "legal" advice as to how my Board or MC might better "protect" MY HOA is welcomed. Protection from what, by the way.

So, Stan, Richard now has cited a statute and also a CA HOA law firm's opinion. The latter is that the HOA "should" keep the other materials, but the law doesn't require it. It only requires the ballots be kept.

Given that, Stan, demands for the outer envelopes probably won't get you very far.

This isn't about me, Richard, it's about practical advice for Stan. In any case, our board IS ultimately responsible for the MC's actions. You seem irritated that we have an onsite PM & asst. What's that about?

My thoughts are that maybe Stan doesn't have the time, or skills to "challenge" the election. I don't know. How, technically, could you do this??