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JosephO1 (Florida)
Posts: 7
Posted:
my fellow boardmember is disputing with a member of the community, this is the dispute. the board has told the member that all property 3 ft from the home is communal,the member states that up to 18 feet from the home is his property line which he pays taxes on, who has rights to said disputed property, there are no fences and easement is not an issue
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
I would be reading (1) the governing documents; and (2) any other legal documents concerning the property. Else I suspect both the HOA and the member have certain rights concerning the property further than 3 feet from the house. (This was the case at my last HOA.) Can you say what exactly it is that the member wants to do to the property that the HOA feels is unacceptable?
JosephO1 (Florida)
Posts: 7
Posted:
the hoa has ripped out certain plantlife, for example an old but very healthy and beautiful bush, trimmed his tree down to bare bones, and wants to put in a picnic table and bench where it was, i was not in favor of this move seeing as how most of our community is older and doesn't use any of this property to begin with, the rest of the board is also older and i personally think they were just trying to get this couple to take their young kids swing out of the tree and just mess with them, the property owner just wants his property to be left alone, it's actually not the owner trying to do anything, it's the rest of the board trying to act on his property, i feel for him but am not sure what or if i can do anything about it
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JosephO1 on 10/11/2016 7:44 AM
the hoa has ripped out certain plantlife, for example an old but very healthy and beautiful bush, trimmed his tree down to bare bones, and wants to put in a picnic table and bench where it was, i was not in favor of this move seeing as how most of our community is older and doesn't use any of this property to begin with, the rest of the board is also older and i personally think they were just trying to get this couple to take their young kids swing out of the tree and just mess with them, the property owner just wants his property to be left alone, it's actually not the owner trying to do anything, it's the rest of the board trying to act on his property, i feel for him but am not sure what or if i can do anything about it

Sounds like the governing documents authorize the HOA to maintain the parts of the property in question here. In which case the owner is wrong to assert that he and he alone controls these parts of the property.

I think there is some question about whether a swing may be hung from a tree that the HOA is responsible to maintain. I think chances are the HOA has the right to remove the swing and/or trim back the tree, particularly for liability reasons, like a kid falling from the swing and breaking her or his arm.

If you sense harassment by the Board on the basis of familial status, the federal Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) can respond to complaints of HOA board actions that attempt to drive out families. You can tell the member about this. War will ensue.

Increasingly I am thinking the best route to go with a rogue board is either to move or to hunker down and not get involved in the activities of the HOA. Member apathy is typically so high that the effort to replace a board will define one's life. I just read the original, 1993 account of Bob Kearns's battle against corporate automakers to pay him for his intermittent windshield wiper invention, at
www.newyorker.com/magazine/1993/01/11/the-flash-of-genius . He quickly made his efforts to recover the value of his invention his full-time job, employing several family members as well. He is long since deceased; he did see the money in his lifetime; and his family today is now terribly rich. When the rewards are within reach, perhaps letting this become his life makes sense. But with a HOA battle, there are not the same rewards.
JosephO1 (Florida)
Posts: 7
Posted:
good advice, I just have a severe problem with just not asking him to take it down instead, they never did. my children are grown, but I believe in family and neighborhood, and my fellow boardmembers are not very accepting of children at all, just a few years ago they tried (and very almost succeeded) in banning all decorations, porch lights and the handing out of candy on halloween, and were wanting to penalize anyone partaking in it, again I feel for the very few families that have lasted more than a year or two here, but am not sure I can or even have the energy to take this on
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Joseph, as I am sure you can imagine, that attempted Halloween ban would be more ammo for any member wanting to file a complaint with HUD. Your Board is being foolish. This could cost them big buck in a battle with HUD. My HOA (rightly) lost a battle with HUD and imposed an enormous special assessment on each member to pay the attorneys' costs and the settlement cost to the complainant.

Your hesitancy to take on this battle is my hesitancy. Though I think I would at least raise the HUD discrimination issue with the Board, googling for examples and pointing out the risk the board is taking. Else I think you're a good person. Your objections would be my objections. Thank you for doing the right thing.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Joseph,

As others have said, this may not be an issue of ownership but an issue of authority to maintain (similar in nature but different in application).

The individual may own the property but contractually agreed to allow the Association to maintain it and specify what may or may not be placed in the areas that are being maintained. The answer will likely be within your governing documents.

Tim
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Has anyone checked a map of the property to see where the property lines begin and end? If your property manager doesn’t have one, perhaps something’s on file at your recorder’s office or zoning office – you may want to call your city or county offices to check. You may also need a surveyor to double check the measurements.

What do your documents say regarding landscaping? For example, if the association is responsible for caring for the tree, the board likely has the right to decide to prune it or even remove it. It would also be appropriate to have the owner remove the swing if he didn’t ask permission to install it (because if someone gets hurt, the association will get sued).
Since you’re on the board, what exactly was the conversation regarding this and the swing? Was there a vote - and were you outvoted? Has there been any complaints regard the swing? Has there been any history of conflict between the association and this homeowner? You said “I personally think they were just trying to get this couple to take their young kid’s swing out of the tree and just mess with them” For some reason, I get the feeling there’s some back story you aren’t telling us.

PS. Please use periods instead of commas to separate your thoughts – it makes things much easier to read.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
JosephO1 (Florida)
Posts: 7
Posted:
howdy and thanks for all of your feedback. There was no voting concerning the swing, merely a vote at the meeting following the swing being put up that the tree be trimmed and all the foilage in that area be removed for the purpose of a picnic table and bench. I thought it odd that we would destroy a very pretty area of flowers and a very well maintained bush as well as trim a tree practically down to nothing to put a table and bench in what is quite literally in someone's front yard. And yes, according to the property line, all within this person's property. I get that we have the right to maintain the landscaping, and I get the safety concern for a swing (this is a very young child's swing by the way, one that is strapped and couldn't have a child fall out even if it tried on purpose), but found it very unnecessary to destroy a nice looking lawn for a table and bench that would only be used by the homeowner who really liked the setup they already had. The vote was 7-2 in favor, again, after being on the board for a while, it is very obvious that the way most of the others talk and act that they have zero appreciation for children in the neighborhood at all.No backstory with this homeowner, never late on dues and no previous issues that I am aware of.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
In our HOA, the owner owned the house and the lot the house sat on. Everything outside that lot was considered "Common property" which is owned/maintained by the HOA. An owner may have "Exclusive use" of some of that area. Which the HOA can still write up on violation. Since our HOA responsibility is to maintain lawncare, this allowed us to mow without "trespassing". It also meant the property was owned by ALL the owners.

The HOA still had to approve and had the right to remove violations to that common area. We did not levy fines. Instead we could fix/remove violations on common area and send the bill to the owner. If they did not pay, then we could file a lien. This is a bit controversial for many here as they believe that would require more legal actions to enter property. However, in our HOA it was well established and in the rules one did not own the property outside the lot. It's been a hanging point on a few home sales. You still pay taxes on that Lot #.

Keep in mind that each and every HOA is set up differently. It sounds like yours could be set up quite similar to how ours works. If your HOA documents state your HOA is responsible for providing lawn care, then it may be set up to have common and exclusive use areas. Otherwise it can be that one owns the property with proper property lines.

Former HOA President
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Unless the governing documents give full authority over the land, or unless the owner is wrong and the property is considered common area, the owner will likely need to go to court to have the Association restore the property to the way it was.

However, prior to doing that, I would suggest that the owner obtain a PLAT at the recorders office and find out where property lines are and easements are.
They should then fully review their governing documents.

Once that is done, they should take both of those documents to a local property attorney and see what their options are.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I should mention that we did indeed have a legal copy of the plot lines. We made it available. Matter of fact, I used that map for the lawn care to reference for each lot's needs. We allowed owners to install fences for limiting back yard access. However, if one wanted that area mowed, they had to unlock their gate for access. Lock it, and you did not get it mowed. Plus if I knew one had a pet, it was marked as well.

Like our HOA meetings being open, we we were also very open with our common area policies/limits. I think that is why it was easier for us to NOT levy fines for violations but to fix/remove them. We were up front with potential buyers with our set up as well. Basically telling them "You own the house and the lot it sits on, the HOA owns everything else". Which because of our yards being the size of postage stamps was not a big issue.

Again, this is NOT ALL HOA's set ups. Always refer to your CC&R's for the definitions. It can and does work to have a HOA set up with the common property as ALL owners have an interest. Just make sure if it is set up this way, that it's understood and open. Otherwise, that is when you do get the owner who insist on putting up lines...

Former HOA President
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 10/11/2016 11:55 AM
Joseph,

As others have said, this may not be an issue of ownership but an issue of authority to maintain (similar in nature but different in application).

The individual may own the property but contractually agreed to allow the Association to maintain it and specify what may or may not be placed in the areas that are being maintained. The answer will likely be within your governing documents.

Tim

Basically that is our situation in that each home own is on a lot the homeowner owns but they agreed to meet HOA standards/rules thus no swing sets, adding trees/bushes, fences, etc.
MichelleK5 (New York)
Posts: 161
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 10/11/2016 12:52 PM
In our HOA, the owner owned the house and the lot the house sat on. Everything outside that lot was considered "Common property" which is owned/maintained by the HOA. An owner may have "Exclusive use" of some of that area. Which the HOA can still write up on violation. Since our HOA responsibility is to maintain lawncare, this allowed us to mow without "trespassing". It also meant the property was owned by ALL the owners.

The HOA still had to approve and had the right to remove violations to that common area. We did not levy fines. Instead we could fix/remove violations on common area and send the bill to the owner. If they did not pay, then we could file a lien. This is a bit controversial for many here as they believe that would require more legal actions to enter property. However, in our HOA it was well established and in the rules one did not own the property outside the lot. It's been a hanging point on a few home sales. You still pay taxes on that Lot #.

Keep in mind that each and every HOA is set up differently. It sounds like yours could be set up quite similar to how ours works. If your HOA documents state your HOA is responsible for providing lawn care, then it may be set up to have common and exclusive use areas. Otherwise it can be that one owns the property with proper property lines.

I'm unclear on what landscaping the HOA maintains?
Is it only the common areas? Or does the HOA provide maintenance on the owners lots?

In my HOA, we also own our own homes and land. But the HOA does not maintain our property, the individual owners do. So there's no reason for anyone to be on our property unless we allow it.

Like most here, we also have to abide by the rules like no fencing (without board approval), not allowed to take trees down, and we're required to maintain our lawns. But the HOA will not come on our property to maintain anything for us even if someone is in violation, at least not these days. There would have to be a court order to allow them to.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
So, the homeowner put up this swing and then the board voted to trim the tree and remove the bush? It seems odd that the board would decide to do this all of a sudden – you don’t say how long you’ve been on the board, but for some reason, I still smell backstory. If this decision was made after the swing went up, someone had to make a motion to do it (maybe he/she has an issue with the homeowner and when the swing went up, that pissed him/her off).

In any case, I think it was rude of the board to do this without giving the homeowner a heads up at the very least – even if the tree is association responsibility, it’s nice to explain to the homeowner in advance what’s being done and why. That’s what my association did last year when it had to chop down several trees because its roots threatened the sewer lines. One homeowner didn't like it (and his wife stood in front of the tree in an attempt to save it from the contractor), but relented when the costs were explained to him.

You may be right about some (most?) board members not liking kids, but again, there may backstory behind that as well. Some people let their kids run wild all over the place and don’t care if a neighbor’s yard gets trampled on in the process. The board may have swung in the direction of those homeowners, not considering that perhaps part of the common area could be converted to a playground for small children. You’re on the board – why not look around the community to see if there’s an area where this could be done and talk to your colleagues about establishing a committee to explore the possibilities?

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

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