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Open Meeting Law

Started by PaulM • 20 replies • 3276 views

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PaulM (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 1,347
Posted:
IN PA: I am confused as to exactly what the reference to 'open meeting law' means. Our assn. docs state that 'members shall have NO RIGHT to attend meetings of the Executive Board, but they may allow Members to attend a particular meeting....' This does not state anything about the Board making decisions or not making decisions.

Roger, you have stated that ..only discussion is allowed at Exec. Board meetings..not DECISIONS made. Also, it has been said here many times that members should leave most/if not all 'day to day' decisions to the Exec. Board since they do have the authority and they should not HAVE TO consult the members.

This sounds like a contradiction. Would you please elaborate?
RobertG (Arizona)
Posts: 505
Posted:
I am not going to speak for Roger, but I think you might be confusing Executive Session and Executive Board.

The Executive session is a time period during a regular board meeting when the homeowners can be excluded. This is based upon many things, usually state law.

The Executive board refers to people, the officers of the board (or the entire board). They make policy decisions and are the people that are in the board meetings. The day to day decisions they might impact are those the effect the association. How those decisions are actually made are based upon the conduct at the board meetings.

Does this explain what you are questioning?
Jadedone4 (Virginia)
Posts: 495
Posted:
Paul, Executive SESSIONS are periods during an open meeting where the full board discusses an issue (usually limited by most state statute/codes to be litigation, personnel, or sensitive contractual matters). The Executive Board is usually comprised of the Officers of the board of directors. Open meeting laws specify (depending on jurisdiction) certain requirements that the membership would be entitled to notice, attendence, and segments where allowed to address the board. This (intent) is to prevent boards from making decisions on matters regarding HOA business behind closed doors. Executive sessions as described above, only limits the discussions, and a vote is NEVER to be taken during. Executive sessions are discussion meetings within a meeting, that require you to vote to enter, and then to re-convene afterwards. Any actions needed/desired are only taken during the OPEN segment of the meeting.
RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PaulM on 07/05/2007 11:14 AM
.... Roger, you have stated that ..only discussion is allowed at Exec. Board meetings..not DECISIONS made. Also, it has been said here many times that members should leave most/if not all 'day to day' decisions to the Exec. Board since they do have the authority and they should not HAVE TO consult the members.

This sounds like a contradiction. Would you please elaborate?

Here is a followup post on my statement on another thread about voting in executive session:
RobertG, To clarify, some associations do allow votes to be taken during executive sessions. I just haven't ever encountered a need for doing so, but then I believe in total transparency IMO the examples you gave do not qualify for a executive sessions (unless the prices bid by various contractors are confidential).

With regard to the Board not having to consult with members on day to day decisions -
Logistically this would be impossible to do. That is why the Board is authorized to act on behalf of the association (usually in the By-laws). Furthermore, the Board can delegate that authority to a Managing Agent. Thus, to accomplish the day to day duties these are either done or supervised by the MA or by a designated member of the Board.
Jadedone4 (Virginia)
Posts: 495
Posted:
Sorry Robert didn't mean to "parrot" your response...
RobertG (Arizona)
Posts: 505
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By Jadedone4 on 07/05/2007 11:29 AM
Sorry Robert didn't mean to "parrot" your response...

Great minds think alike?? I liked your explanation better.
PaulM (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 1,347
Posted:
I am still not clear on what open meeting law means--no one has addressed it in your responses thus far. I do know the difference between Exec.Session and Exec. Board meeting and the reference I quoted from our docs pertains to Exec. Board mtg... We do have quarterly assn. meetings at which time the Board presents an update on decisions which they HAVE MADE on behalf of the community. The assn. votes on the forthcoming budget at our annual meeting in Dec.

This is where I am c=what is an open meeting law and does PA have that?
JohnC10 (Arizona)
Posts: 106
Posted:
Technically the decisions should actually be made in a meeting open to a properly notified membership. The members really have no bearing on how the board votes. As long as the board is notifying the membership on what it decides and the members are allowed at some point to voice an opinion what does it really matter when or where the decision is made?
Jadedone4 (Virginia)
Posts: 495
Posted:
JohnC10 - it matters where and when the decisions of the board are made. The essence of an "open meeting" is for full transparency in the board's governing of the HOA's business. Your point concerning member's rights to speak during a meeting, is another part of the "open meeting" laws/codes. Yes the board has the final decision on matters, as the duly elected representatives of the community. However they cannot perform those duties in secrecy, and away from membership.

I for one would want to know which board member voted in what manner on issues that affect my community, lifestyle, etc. This is part of the process of assisting owners/members in their selection of directors to the board to represent interest which are aligned with the community's.
Jadedone4 (Virginia)
Posts: 495
Posted:
Paul, I seem to remember a discussion here, where PA had a different set of rules for "open meetings" which were part of FOIA, or open government. Do a search under PA statutes/laws for "open meetings" "sunshine laws" and see what pops up. I think that previously one of the Brads here, posted a link to "open governments" which had drop-down links for each state.

JohnC10 (Arizona)
Posts: 106
Posted:
I would certainly prefer that the board cast their ayes and nays during a meeting of which the membership was invited, although if they didn't and I was concerned about who voted how I would simply ask to poll the board.

If the board got together and decided to fire abc landscaping and hire xyz landscaping and made that decision known at a meeting, had I liked the work of abc I might ask why abc was terminated and if xyz had any affiliation with the board. As long as I've asked the right questions and I'm satisfied with the answers then I have no gripe about the means used to achieve the end.
GloriaM (North Carolina)
Posts: 829
Posted:
Paul:

It does not appear that PA has a Planned Community Act, however you can research the PA Statutes Title 15 Chapter 57 Subchapter C & E.
JC3
Posts: 290
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By Jadedone4 on 07/05/2007 11:28 AM
Paul, Executive SESSIONS are periods during an open meeting where the full board discusses an issue (usually limited by most state statute/codes to be litigation, personnel, or sensitive contractual matters)... Open meeting laws specify...requirements that the membership would be entitled to notice, attendence, and segments where allowed to address the board. This (intent) is to prevent boards from making decisions on matters regarding HOA business behind closed doors. Executive sessions as described above, only limits the discussions, and a vote is NEVER to be taken during...Any actions needed/desired are only taken during the OPEN segment of the meeting.

Our board goes to closed meeting (no "executive" sessions in this state) to hear appeals--whether of CC&R's or Architectural Review, and in the case of ARC, later, in the absence of the homeowner(s), the decision is made. Is these policy out of line then? The given reason is that some homeowners do not like the decisions made and can be less than...politely accepting. Do these need changed, and how?
Jadedone4 (Virginia)
Posts: 495
Posted:
JC3, I would believe that "appeals" do not fall under the references of "open meetings" as they are between HOA and individual owners. Yes, I can understand how an individual owner may not want their "business" out in the open with the full community. Not sure if your HOA schedules "appeals" as part of your regular HOA meetings, or as a separate event.

Open meetings are board actions/business between HOA and everyone.

Appeals are board (committee) actions/business between HOA and individual members.

If your HOA has appeals, as part of the regular meeting, I would suspect that it is like waiting in the lobby for your dentist to call you in for an exam... (smile)
JudithC (Virginia)
Posts: 253
Posted:
I believe what JC3 was saying is the board heard the appeal about the ARC but did not make that decision right there on the spot in front of the homeowner who was appealing as they didn't want to face the homeowner. Maybe I am incorrect.

This procedure is allowed here, though usually not done. I think the reasoning is that sometimes the board cannot decide right away, they have to think (interesting concept). There is a specified number of days that they have to inform the homeowner of the decision.
Jadedone4 (Virginia)
Posts: 495
Posted:
Gotcha Judith, if the board does not render decision during the "appeals hearing" and later at the regular meeting - it should (as you stated) be a timeframe (from governing doc's, or just a simple policy) that the board responds to the owner/member. If the board was unable to render decisions during the "appeals hearing," I also believe that it is appropriate to mail a letter, directly to the owner/member, and not to mention during an open meeting. Although I am sure that it could be successfully argued that the full membership should be aware of the board/HOA's due diligence with regard to enforcement and due process procedures - I do not believe that it would serve any purpose to announce publically, and part of the official minutes specifics of the infraction, or the resulting "appeals hearing" decision. if necessary, the letters informing the owner/members of the "appeals hearing" decisions, can be part of the minutes listed as such - and not necessarily ID the owner/members. However, the decisions from "appeals hearings" (IMHO) do not regire "open meetings" between HOA and membership, just board and involved owner/member.

If the concern that the poster had was "less than politely accepted....," decisions would cause issues, the letter to the owner/member should take care of that. While impresonal, it does insulate the board from obvious poor behavior of the owner/member. It also serves as official notice to the owner/member of the board's actions -however "impersonal."
JudithC (Virginia)
Posts: 253
Posted:
Jaded, in Virginia, there are very specific constraints on executive sessions (which include hearings). So, after they came back from executive session they would have to vote on tabling the decision or whatever. To follow the law, the actual outcome other than tabling would also have to be made at an open board meeting. The letter announcing the hearing result must be hand delivered or sent certified within 7 days. I wonder whether this letter would contain it was tabled and the decision will be made on ...., and then another notice has to be sent? It certainly is easier to make the decision on the spot! I guess they could always hope that the person would go home before the actual decision is made in open session. The minutes contain the house address of the offender.
GloriaM (North Carolina)
Posts: 829
Posted:
[PDF] A GUIDE TO THE NEW JERSEY OPEN PUBLIC MEETINGS ACT WHAT IS THE ...File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
The Law permits any person to file a lawsuit in New Jersey Superior Court to ... The “Sunshine Law” does not. attempt to inhibit the public body from ...
www.beachhavenborough.com/images/sunshine.pdf - Similar pages

Paul:

See the above link for open meeting definition. I hope this helps.
JosephW (Michigan)
Posts: 882
Posted:
I think you'll find PA's Open Meeting law is much like ours here in Michigan in that it applies to public or governmental agencies, not private corporations like a condo or HOA. Here's the link to the law:

http://members.aol.com/StatutesP7/65.Cp.C7.html

Basically this would mean that the owners have no legal right to attend meetings of the board. It's the same in our state, unless the documents specifically state otherwise.

That doesn't mean I agree with it, I think board meetings should be open, but in many states, there is no law to require it.

Joe
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PaulM (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 1,347
Posted:
Joe, Thank You, its what I feared; that all Board decisions are made in private and the community residents are only informed after the fact.
JosephW (Michigan)
Posts: 882
Posted:
Not quite true. Even though Michigan has a similar legal setup, most of the boards I've worked with have open meetings. I know that's not always the case, but we'll keep plugging away at those who don't.

Joe
Joseph West
Official HOATalk.com Sponsor
Community Associations Network, LLC
www.CommunityAssociations.net
*See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal

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