Help Understanding Rules and Restrictions and other issues

DanielM13 (South Carolina)
Posts: 13

Posted:

I would like some help understanding if my interpretation of our covenants and bylaws is correct. Obviously, this is just a sanity check and I am not seeking legal counsel.

For years, our community has been run with the understanding that in order to change any rules, a 2/3 community member vote would be required. This has been told to us by the current board members and was dictated to them by the HOA management company.

We have a fairly large homeowners community and getting a 2/3 vote on anything is nearly impossible. We have been trying for years to get basketball hoops allowed, but have always been shot down as they claim a 2/3 homeowners vote would be required.

After thoroughly reading the bylaws, I believe they are totally wrong...and have been blindly been following the directive of the current HOA comapany.

In our bylaws is a section labeled "Rules and Restrictions" where all of our rules reside. Things such as architectural approval, signs, fences AND basketball hoops is contained within this section. One of the first few sentences contained within this section state:

“...the Board may, from time to time, without consent of the Members, promulgate, modify or delete other use restrictions and rules and regulations applicable to the Community.”

We have an entire section related to changing the bylaws that does state a 2/3 homeowner vote is required, but the bylaws are described in an entirely different section and pertains to the structure of the HOA, board members etc.

Am I crazy, or does this not say that the board at any time has the authority to change anything contained under the rules and regulations?

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

So you want the board to have the power to turn you down too? That's basically what is going to happen. The problem is that 2/3rds of the membership do not want to change the rules. It's kind of expensive. Not only do you have to gather the votes, you also have to pay to file them. Which with legal expenses, filing fees, and distribution costs can go up to 2 to 5 K dollars.

Now you want basketball goals to be allowed there may be another way than changing the CC&R's. The board could make the decision and put it in the BY-LAWS or ACC documents. Which are more fluid to change. By-laws or ACC documents do not require to be filed. They do need distributed and voted on by majority of board. Which the board does represent the entire membership. Again bringing up the issue that if a majority of owner's don't want it they will get the board member to vote it down.

I ran into the whole basketball goal thing myself. I found it best to have 1 central goal in the common area than individual homes. The damage issues with owning goals is too great. Plus the danger that can happen. Best to see if your HOA can add one to where ALL kids have access to than indvidually.

Former HOA President

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Daniel,

That is the way I would interpret it (that is without reading the whole document).

When I was house hunting, I found a set of Covenants that granted waiver authority to the Board for any covenant and said waiver would not apply to everyone, but only to that one lot. Needless to say, I did not purchase in that development.

DanielM13 (South Carolina)
Posts: 13

Posted:

While I appreciate all comments, my question pertains to the interpretation of the ability to revise the Rules and Regulations, not opinions on basketball goals.

Tim,

Thank you for your response. I find it odd that the company responsible for managing the HOA is interpreting these rules differently and informing our board that they are not able to modify the rules and restrictions. As I stated before, we have an entire section in the covenants that specify the community bylaws which is separate from the rules and restrictions. While the bylaws to state the need for a 2/3 majority vote, the rules and restrictions specify (as far as I can tell) the board may modify (again, the rules and restrictions) at anytime.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

No legal background, but our Rules & Regs are a separate governing document than our Bylaws. Our CC&Rs & Rules and Regs both say about the same thing as yours: the Board has the authority to add, delete, modify rules without members' consent. (In CA, though, there are further steps the Board must take).

This is one huge reason why board members should NOT rely solely on their mgmt. companies. Imo, what happens is that boards and apparently managers think that "rules" and by"laws" are kind of the same thing. Are you one the board?

The important thing is to not create, modify or delete rules in such a way that they'd come into conflict with your higher level docs, i.e., your CC&Rs, Articles of Incorporation and Bylaws.

(Our Bylaws need 51% approval to change and our CC&Rs, 2/3rds) Apparently Melissa is talking about her former or current HOA or AL laws

DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046

Posted:

It seems unusual to me that rules and restrictions like basketball hoops would be in your bylaws, most commonly those are in your covenants. The covenants and bylaws are typically separate documents, and likely have different requirements for modification. Each doc should tell what is needed to amend. There is also a precedence in the docs if there are conflicts. The order generally is:

Laws (they also have an order of precedence)
Covenants (or CCRs or Deed Restrictions) - in my association it takes 2/3rds of members to amend.
Bylaws - In my association a majority of members at a members meeting with a quorum to amend.
Rules and regulations. - Board creates and can change.

The board can make rules and regulations, but they generally can't conflict with higher level documents. So for example, they could create a rule setting pool hours if that was not specified in otherwise.

In your case, the board can't create a rule allowing basketball hoops if one of the docs prohibits them.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

No legal background, but our Rules & Regs are a separate governing document than our Bylaws. Our CC&Rs & Rules and Regs both say about the same thing as yours: the Board has the authority to add, delete, modify rules without members' consent. (In CA, though, there are further steps the Board must take).

This is one huge reason why board members should NOT rely solely on their mgmt. companies. Imo, what happens is that boards and apparently managers think that "rules" and by"laws" are kind of the same thing. Are you one the board?

The important thing is to not create, modify or delete rules in such a way that they'd come into conflict with your higher level docs, i.e., your CC&Rs, Articles of Incorporation and Bylaws.

(Our Bylaws need 51% approval to change and our CC&Rs, 2/3rds) Apparently Melissa is talking about her former or current HOA or AL laws

DanielM13 (South Carolina)
Posts: 13

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DouglasK1 on 09/20/2016 10:46 AM
It seems unusual to me that rules and restrictions like basketball hoops would be in your bylaws, most commonly those are in your covenants. The covenants and bylaws are typically separate documents, and likely have different requirements for modification. Each doc should tell what is needed to amend. There is also a precedence in the docs if there are conflicts. The order generally is:

Laws (they also have an order of precedence)
Covenants (or CCRs or Deed Restrictions) - in my association it takes 2/3rds of members to amend.
Bylaws - In my association a majority of members at a members meeting with a quorum to amend.
Rules and regulations. - Board creates and can change.

The board can make rules and regulations, but they generally can't conflict with higher level documents. So for example, they could create a rule setting pool hours if that was not specified in otherwise.

In your case, the board can't create a rule allowing basketball hoops if one of the docs prohibits them.

Ok, looking at it again it appears there are 2 documents contained within the 1. Everything was scanned into a single document, so it’s a bit confusing. The court records this as one whole document though.

The first page is the Declaration of Protective Covenants. Contained within these covenants are Definitions, Membership and Voting rights, Assessments etc. Also contained is the Use and Restriction Rules. It is under these rules (which reside under the covenants) where it is declared:

”This Section sets out certain use restrictions which must be complied with by all Owners and Occupants. These restrictions may only be amended as provided in this Declaration. In addition, the Board may, from time to time, without consent of the Members, promulgate, modify, or delete other use restrictions and rules and regulations applicable to the community. Such use restrictions and rules shall be distributed to all Owners and Occupants prior to the date that they are to become effective and shall thereafter be binding upon all Owners and Occupants until and unless overruled, canceled or modified in a regular or special meeting by a majority of the Total Association Vote.

The Bylaws themselves are defined in the “Definitions” and are attached as Exhibit “C”. Nowhere in the bylaws are rules and restrictions mentioned.

What I take this to mean is, the board can at any time add, delete or modify any community rules. The only time a 2/3 community vote is required would be to override any rules to protect the community from an inactive board, or a board that creates or modifies rules that go against the majority vote. If for instance they modified rules governing basketball hoops, the community has the right to re-enact the restriction if they feel the need.

DanielM13 (South Carolina)
Posts: 13

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 09/20/2016 11:08 AM
No legal background, but our Rules & Regs are a separate governing document than our Bylaws. Our CC&Rs & Rules and Regs both say about the same thing as yours: the Board has the authority to add, delete, modify rules without members' consent. (In CA, though, there are further steps the Board must take).

This is one huge reason why board members should NOT rely solely on their mgmt. companies. Imo, what happens is that boards and apparently managers think that "rules" and by"laws" are kind of the same thing. Are you one the board?

The important thing is to not create, modify or delete rules in such a way that they'd come into conflict with your higher level docs, i.e., your CC&Rs, Articles of Incorporation and Bylaws.

(Our Bylaws need 51% approval to change and our CC&Rs, 2/3rds) Apparently Melissa is talking about her former or current HOA or AL laws

I am not on the board, but there are quite a few of us looking to make some changes in one way or another, as we are not satisfied with how things are being run. It seems that a great deal of homeowners are ignorant about their community and really don't care about any of this as long as their dues don't raise. A good deal of us are looking to better the community, make it more family friendly, have more community events, chip in for community service etc.

DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DanielM13 on 09/20/2016 11:12 AM

Ok, looking at it again it appears there are 2 documents contained within the 1. Everything was scanned into a single document, so it’s a bit confusing. The court records this as one whole document though.

The first page is the Declaration of Protective Covenants. Contained within these covenants are Definitions, Membership and Voting rights, Assessments etc. Also contained is the Use and Restriction Rules. It is under these rules (which reside under the covenants) where it is declared:

”This Section sets out certain use restrictions which must be complied with by all Owners and Occupants. These restrictions may only be amended as provided in this Declaration. In addition, the Board may, from time to time, without consent of the Members, promulgate, modify, or delete other use restrictions and rules and regulations applicable to the community. Such use restrictions and rules shall be distributed to all Owners and Occupants prior to the date that they are to become effective and shall thereafter be binding upon all Owners and Occupants until and unless overruled, canceled or modified in a regular or special meeting by a majority of the Total Association Vote.

What I take this to mean is, the board can at any time add, delete or modify any community rules. The only time a 2/3 community vote is required would be to override any rules to protect the community from an inactive board, or a board that creates or modifies rules that go against the majority vote. If for instance they modified rules governing basketball hoops, the community has the right to re-enact the restriction if they feel the need.

Most commonly, the board's ability to create rules is to "fill in the gaps", not to trump the Covenants, such as in my example above of setting pool hours. Similarly, the board can modify or delete rules that it creates, but not change covenants. Of course, every association's docs are different, but I think the word "other" in the quote above is key. The covenant rules can't be changed by the board, but other rules can be enacted/deleted. Since the MC appears to believe this and the board is accepting their interpretation, the only thing that would likely change their mind would be a legal opinion, which they are not likely to spend money getting. If like minded owners band together, the price per owner to talk to a lawyer and get their take might not be
to bad.

In the longer term, you might want to consider running for the board, and getting like minded owners to do the same. Just putting your name on the ballot is probably not enough, you would need to knock on doors and talk to people if you really want change.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.

DanielM13 (South Carolina)
Posts: 13

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DouglasK1 on 09/20/2016 11:57 AM

Posted By DanielM13 on 09/20/2016 11:12 AM

Ok, looking at it again it appears there are 2 documents contained within the 1. Everything was scanned into a single document, so it’s a bit confusing. The court records this as one whole document though.

The first page is the Declaration of Protective Covenants. Contained within these covenants are Definitions, Membership and Voting rights, Assessments etc. Also contained is the Use and Restriction Rules. It is under these rules (which reside under the covenants) where it is declared:

”This Section sets out certain use restrictions which must be complied with by all Owners and Occupants. These restrictions may only be amended as provided in this Declaration. In addition, the Board may, from time to time, without consent of the Members, promulgate, modify, or delete other use restrictions and rules and regulations applicable to the community. Such use restrictions and rules shall be distributed to all Owners and Occupants prior to the date that they are to become effective and shall thereafter be binding upon all Owners and Occupants until and unless overruled, canceled or modified in a regular or special meeting by a majority of the Total Association Vote.

What I take this to mean is, the board can at any time add, delete or modify any community rules. The only time a 2/3 community vote is required would be to override any rules to protect the community from an inactive board, or a board that creates or modifies rules that go against the majority vote. If for instance they modified rules governing basketball hoops, the community has the right to re-enact the restriction if they feel the need.

Most commonly, the board's ability to create rules is to "fill in the gaps", not to trump the Covenants, such as in my example above of setting pool hours. Similarly, the board can modify or delete rules that it creates, but not change covenants. Of course, every association's docs are different, but I think the word "other" in the quote above is key. The covenant rules can't be changed by the board, but other rules can be enacted/deleted. Since the MC appears to believe this and the board is accepting their interpretation, the only thing that would likely change their mind would be a legal opinion, which they are not likely to spend money getting. If like minded owners band together, the price per owner to talk to a lawyer and get their take might not be
to bad.

In the longer term, you might want to consider running for the board, and getting like minded owners to do the same. Just putting your name on the ballot is probably not enough, you would need to knock on doors and talk to people if you really want change.

I understand the “other” however, the word is never mentioned or defined anywhere else in the document. Perhaps there is a common legal interpretation, which is part of the reason I brought the question up.

As of right now, plan one is to get the board onboard at all costs…or to get members in place that want to better the community.

DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DanielM13 on 09/20/2016 12:19 PM

I understand the “other” however, the word is never mentioned or defined anywhere else in the document. Perhaps there is a common legal interpretation, which is part of the reason I brought the question up.

As of right now, plan one is to get the board onboard at all costs…or to get members in place that want to better the community.

My interpretation of "other" is that clause refers to rules "other" than those defined in the CCRs. As a sanity check, which is what you first asked for, the board can't override CCRs in most associations.

The board might have some leeway in enforcement, so they might be able to look the other way on hoops, but it is typically beyond their power to actually change the rule.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.

DanielM13 (South Carolina)
Posts: 13

Posted:

One more thing I forgot to mention is Variances.

Per the covenenants,

“Notwithstanding anything to the contrary contained herin, the Declarant and the Board or its designee shall be authorized to grant individual variances from any of the provisions of this Declaration, the Bylaws or and rule, regulation or use restriction promulgated pursuant therto if it determines that waiver of application or enforcement of the provision in a particular case would not be inconsistent with the overall scheme of development for the Community.”

Does this mean the Board can choose to ignore regulations?

DanielM13 (South Carolina)
Posts: 13

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DouglasK1 on 09/20/2016 12:37 PM

Posted By DanielM13 on 09/20/2016 12:19 PM

I understand the “other” however, the word is never mentioned or defined anywhere else in the document. Perhaps there is a common legal interpretation, which is part of the reason I brought the question up.

As of right now, plan one is to get the board onboard at all costs…or to get members in place that want to better the community.

My interpretation of "other" is that clause refers to rules "other" than those defined in the CCRs. As a sanity check, which is what you first asked for, the board can't override CCRs in most associations.

The board might have some leeway in enforcement, so they might be able to look the other way on hoops, but it is typically beyond their power to actually change the rule.

I guess that's a bit confusing, as all of the community rules must lie in the covenants.

DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DanielM13 on 09/20/2016 12:37 PM
One more thing I forgot to mention is Variances.

Per the covenenants,

“Notwithstanding anything to the contrary contained herin, the Declarant and the Board or its designee shall be authorized to grant individual variances from any of the provisions of this Declaration, the Bylaws or and rule, regulation or use restriction promulgated pursuant therto if it determines that waiver of application or enforcement of the provision in a particular case would not be inconsistent with the overall scheme of development for the Community.”

Does this mean the Board can choose to ignore regulations?

Most often this is in regards to architectural rules. For example, covenants might say that paint colors have to be chosen from a set color book. The ARC or board could then approve colors that weren't in the book, but were "not inconsistent" with the approved colors.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.

DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DanielM13 on 09/20/2016 12:38 PM

I guess that's a bit confusing, as all of the community rules must lie in the covenants.

I'm not sure how you are coming to that conclusion. The covenants contain one set of rules that are not easy to change. The board can create "other" rules as long as they are not in conflict with the covenants.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.

DanielM13 (South Carolina)
Posts: 13

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DouglasK1 on 09/20/2016 12:47 PM

Posted By DanielM13 on 09/20/2016 12:38 PM

I guess that's a bit confusing, as all of the community rules must lie in the covenants.

I'm not sure how you are coming to that conclusion. The covenants contain one set of rules that are not easy to change. The board can create "other" rules as long as they are not in conflict with the covenants.

Where are other rules supposed to reside? The covenants don't specify this. How is the community supposed to follow rules not posted in the covenants if they aren't posted anywhere else either? Do you see my point?

DanielM13 (South Carolina)
Posts: 13

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DouglasK1 on 09/20/2016 12:44 PM

Posted By DanielM13 on 09/20/2016 12:37 PM
One more thing I forgot to mention is Variances.

Per the covenenants,

“Notwithstanding anything to the contrary contained herin, the Declarant and the Board or its designee shall be authorized to grant individual variances from any of the provisions of this Declaration, the Bylaws or and rule, regulation or use restriction promulgated pursuant therto if it determines that waiver of application or enforcement of the provision in a particular case would not be inconsistent with the overall scheme of development for the Community.”

Does this mean the Board can choose to ignore regulations?

Most often this is in regards to architectural rules. For example, covenants might say that paint colors have to be chosen from a set color book. The ARC or board could then approve colors that weren't in the book, but were "not inconsistent" with the approved colors.

Right, however there would be nothing stopping the board from allowing basketball hoops as an individual variance. I'm thinking of a short term solution before a longer term one can be addressed.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Daniel

Let me try to explain a bit differently. A BOD can make Rules and Regulations without owner approval. These R&R's cannot override Bylaws nor Covenants.

As an example: If there are no Bylaws nor Covenants prohibiting basketball hoops the BOD could make an R&R banning and/or controlling usage/placement of such. Now if you disagree you have 4 courses of action.

1. Get the BOD to change the R&R. One way to do this is get like thinkers on the BOD. This is probably the easiest and least expensive method.
2. Modify the Bylaws/Covenants to allow such. Difficult as you will need 50% or more owners to agree.
3. Challenge the BOD in court. This could be expensive,
4. Continue playing outhouse/Internet lawyer and look for legal loopholes to allow basketball nets. So far I do not see this working for you.

DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DanielM13 on 09/20/2016 1:08 PM

Where are other rules supposed to reside? The covenants don't specify this. How is the community supposed to follow rules not posted in the covenants if they aren't posted anywhere else either? Do you see my point?

The board needs to publicize the rules, whether that's by email, mail, or posting on the bulletin boards in common areas. I don't see how it appears so difficult.

Quote:

Posted By DanielM13 on 09/20/2016 1:12 PM

Right, however there would be nothing stopping the board from allowing basketball hoops as an individual variance. I'm thinking of a short term solution before a longer term one can be addressed.

If the board felt that basketball hoops were "not inconsistent with the overall scheme of development for the Community" then they could, although since the covenants explicitly ban them, that could be an uphill battle.

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 09/20/2016 1:36 PM

+1

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.

DanielM13 (South Carolina)
Posts: 13

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 09/20/2016 1:36 PM
Daniel

Let me try to explain a bit differently. A BOD can make Rules and Regulations without owner approval. These R&R's cannot override Bylaws nor Covenants.

As an example: If there are no Bylaws nor Covenants prohibiting basketball hoops the BOD could make an R&R banning and/or controlling usage/placement of such. Now if you disagree you have 4 courses of action.

1. Get the BOD to change the R&R. One way to do this is get like thinkers on the BOD. This is probably the easiest and least expensive method.
2. Modify the Bylaws/Covenants to allow such. Difficult as you will need 50% or more owners to agree.
3. Challenge the BOD in court. This could be expensive,
4. Continue playing outhouse/Internet lawyer and look for legal loopholes to allow basketball nets. So far I do not see this working for you.

I do understand what you are saying, however...if the board makes new rules, where are they to be posted? The covenants make no mention of this. In order to enforce any added rules, you would think they would have to be recorded somewhere. The fact that the covenants make no mention of this seems odd.

Modifying the covenants is impossible, as far too many people don't care (and our HOA requires 2/3 vote). We could legalize prostitution in our HOA, and as long as there is no-one knocking on their door they are happier to live in ignorance.

In the end, we are going full force with the like thinkers response. As it stands, we have 1 current official board member...yes, 1. He refuses to appoint any other members. We have a vice president that somehow has voting rights, even though our covenants state the vice president is only afforded a vote in the presidents absence. We have 2 members that have somehow been afforded voting privilege without actually being on the board. So we somehow have 4 voting members even though the bylaws state only 3 are allowed (President, Secretary and Treasurer), and those 3 must be residing board members.

The frustration level we have been going through is off the charts.

DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046

Posted:

Sorry, meant this:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 09/20/2016 1:36 PM
4. Continue playing outhouse/Internet lawyer and look for legal loopholes to allow basketball nets. So far I do not see this working for you.

+1

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.

DanielM13 (South Carolina)
Posts: 13

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DouglasK1 on 09/20/2016 1:46 PM

Posted By DanielM13 on 09/20/2016 1:08 PM

Where are other rules supposed to reside? The covenants don't specify this. How is the community supposed to follow rules not posted in the covenants if they aren't posted anywhere else either? Do you see my point?

The board needs to publicize the rules, whether that's by email, mail, or posting on the bulletin boards in common areas. I don't see how it appears so difficult.

Quote:

Posted By DanielM13 on 09/20/2016 1:12 PM

Right, however there would be nothing stopping the board from allowing basketball hoops as an individual variance. I'm thinking of a short term solution before a longer term one can be addressed.

If the board felt that basketball hoops were "not inconsistent with the overall scheme of development for the Community" then they could, although since the covenants explicitly ban them, that could be an uphill battle.

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 09/20/2016 1:36 PM

+1

If you see my other posts, you'll understand my frustration.

Our HOA hasn't had an audit since 2012.

The variance clause specifically states the ability of the board to override on an individual basis all rules and regulations. Like minded board members would then be allowed to apply such variances as it sees fit until a proper solution could be established.

DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DanielM13 on 09/20/2016 1:46 PM

In the end, we are going full force with the like thinkers response. As it stands, we have 1 current official board member...yes, 1. He refuses to appoint any other members. We have a vice president that somehow has voting rights, even though our covenants state the vice president is only afforded a vote in the presidents absence. We have 2 members that have somehow been afforded voting privilege without actually being on the board. So we somehow have 4 voting members even though the bylaws state only 3 are allowed (President, Secretary and Treasurer), and those 3 must be residing board members.

The frustration level we have been going through is off the charts.

It seems then that basketball hoops should be the least of your worries. Do you have annual meetings with elections? Do you have one coming up?

I've never heard of a rule that the VP can't vote except in the president's absence, that seems fairly unusual. I guess if the bylaws called for a 4 member board, that could make sense, although most associations have odd number boards. Rules governing how the board is managed are typically in the bylaws, not the covenants.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.

DanielM13 (South Carolina)
Posts: 13

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DouglasK1 on 09/20/2016 2:03 PM

Posted By DanielM13 on 09/20/2016 1:46 PM

In the end, we are going full force with the like thinkers response. As it stands, we have 1 current official board member...yes, 1. He refuses to appoint any other members. We have a vice president that somehow has voting rights, even though our covenants state the vice president is only afforded a vote in the presidents absence. We have 2 members that have somehow been afforded voting privilege without actually being on the board. So we somehow have 4 voting members even though the bylaws state only 3 are allowed (President, Secretary and Treasurer), and those 3 must be residing board members.

The frustration level we have been going through is off the charts.

It seems then that basketball hoops should be the least of your worries. Do you have annual meetings with elections? Do you have one coming up?

I've never heard of a rule that the VP can't vote except in the president's absence, that seems fairly unusual. I guess if the bylaws called for a 4 member board, that could make sense, although most associations have odd number boards. Rules governing how the board is managed are typically in the bylaws, not the covenants.

I agree, it's the least of our worries, but it's a common ground that a lot of us homeowners share which can be used to our advantage.

Our covenants don't specify the need for a vice president at all, only a pres, treasurer and secretary (no more than 3 total board members). It states that a vice president may be chosen but is not considered a board member and only has voting rights as I specified. Anyone not listed as a board member is considered an officer and does not have voting rights (with the exception of the VP as stated). I'm not sure what's normal or not...but this is our first HOA go around.

Keep in mind, our bylaws are part of our covenants listed as "exhibit c".

Annual meeting is in January. We're already set to acquire enough attendees to hold an election.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

So your saying you would rather give your HOA board the power to change/modify rules than majority of the homeowners? A HOA is run by it's members for it's members. If your HOA doesn't like a rule or would like a to add a rule, then majority rules. That is why a 2/3rd vote of the membership is required. Otherwise do you want 3 to 5 people to make ALL your decisions for you and your neighbors?

Honestly, it sounds like this basketball goal issue isn't going to pass the mustard. It didn't in our HOA. We had lots of kids that were on the basketball teams. It was a good way for them to practice. However, the reality is that basketball goals have never been a good idea or implemented well. Admittedly, I even played basketball at a nearby goal a neighbor had. Which wasn't "Approved". So I am not one to say I don't like or wanted them...However, the final straw came when the two kids across the street from each other got on rival teams. The one neighbor was denied because where they wanted the goal was in a very dangerous blind spot area. It quite frankly NOT safe in any stretch of the imagination. They got mad at their denial and we had to remove the other neighbor's goal. They had to be banned but we had one in the common area near the pool anyways. I just put the other goal on the other side of it to make a small court. It later just got trashed and destroyed making a huge mess.

Sorry you don't want to hear about "basketball goal" issues in this discussion. I do have to point out that sometimes you have to start looking at the trees and get out of the forrest. Our HOA could have allowed goals in our by-laws by board approval. However, we listened to the HOA members we represented who said "No way". If we did try to get the 2/3rds vote of the membership, it would have lost anyways. No matter how much I may have supported it as President...

Former HOA President

DanielM13 (South Carolina)
Posts: 13

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 09/20/2016 2:54 PM
So your saying you would rather give your HOA board the power to change/modify rules than majority of the homeowners? A HOA is run by it's members for it's members. If your HOA doesn't like a rule or would like a to add a rule, then majority rules. That is why a 2/3rd vote of the membership is required. Otherwise do you want 3 to 5 people to make ALL your decisions for you and your neighbors?

Honestly, it sounds like this basketball goal issue isn't going to pass the mustard. It didn't in our HOA. We had lots of kids that were on the basketball teams. It was a good way for them to practice. However, the reality is that basketball goals have never been a good idea or implemented well. Admittedly, I even played basketball at a nearby goal a neighbor had. Which wasn't "Approved". So I am not one to say I don't like or wanted them...However, the final straw came when the two kids across the street from each other got on rival teams. The one neighbor was denied because where they wanted the goal was in a very dangerous blind spot area. It quite frankly NOT safe in any stretch of the imagination. They got mad at their denial and we had to remove the other neighbor's goal. They had to be banned but we had one in the common area near the pool anyways. I just put the other goal on the other side of it to make a small court. It later just got trashed and destroyed making a huge mess.

Sorry you don't want to hear about "basketball goal" issues in this discussion. I do have to point out that sometimes you have to start looking at the trees and get out of the forrest. Our HOA could have allowed goals in our by-laws by board approval. However, we listened to the HOA members we represented who said "No way". If we did try to get the 2/3rds vote of the membership, it would have lost anyways. No matter how much I may have supported it as President...

A 2/3rd vote only seems to be an issue with modifying the rules set forth in the covenants. It sounds like these 3 people can make any rules up they so desire as it stands. I personally would prefer a larger committee to make decisions, as it would at-least allow some representation. Otherwise, the HOA just sits stagnant while new subdivisions pop up with a better HOA structure.

All of the HOA's in our area allow basketball goals, including multi million dollar subdivisions. The rule is outdated. Our problem isn't that people are saying no, it's that people don't care enough to vote. We have achieved well over 100 signatures to change the covenants, but getting a 2/3 vote with 400+ homes for anything isn't a reality.

Again though, this is just the tip of the iceberg. We have many other pressing issues.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Say, Daniel, do your covenants say anything about basketball goals at all? If not, as Douglas states, your board can make rules about them one way or another, as can our Board and many many other HOA boards all over the USA.

We too have rules limiting what Owners can do to their condos, on their balconies, window coverings, etc. But the Rules & Regs often clarifies convents or elaborates on them. And Rules & Regs are where new rules go, which I am certain your board can make without Owners' consent.

And, of course, they physically need to be somewhere! Someone, say the board secretary or PM, should compile them in to a nice pamphlet of binder for each Owner to have. You may want to date each rule as it's made.

BUT, Owners do have the right to vote down the new rule via a majority as they can in our HOA.

Look up variance in your covenants definition section. Variance (we are a condo bldg.) here does almost always refer to some sort of structural change and as Douglas has said in your case, perhaps architectural changes that don't match your Guidelines. If there's no covenant against B.Gs there can be no variance.

Our Bylaws have an article which allows the Owners to elect directors to fill vacancies if the Board doesn't in a timely manner. Check yours, Daniel. And keep pushing the MC about the "board's" failure to meet it'd fiduciary obligation by having an duly elected or appointed board wight eh officers designated in your Bylaws. In every HOA board I've heard about, if the bylaws permit non-diretors to hold certain offices, they are may not vote. That a non-director VP may vote in the absence of the prez makes no sense!

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Daniel

You seem to use words interchangeable that are not the same:

Covenants, Deed Restrictions, etc. can only be modified/changed/added by a majority of owners agreeing to such. Typically 2.3rds or more.

Bylaws can only be modified/changed/added by a majority of owners agreeing to such. Typically 1/2 or more.

Rule & Regulation can be modified/changed/added to by the BOD without owners agreeing to such.

Please clarify what you are looking to do versus lump the above all together.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I think you're right, JohnC. I believe that what has been (understandably) confusing to Daniel is twofold. (1) Two different docs were scanned together making them seem as if they're one doc.

WithIN his covenant there apparently is a section of rules. We have that too. It's called "Use Restrictions" and is a dozen pages long. It's basically "rules against x,y or z). But our CC&R Index list Rules & Regulations also as a governing document and it's the one that can be modified by a board vote.