Board is requiring resident form in order to vote

Started by LeilaniL • 27 replies • 1330 views

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LeilaniL (California)
Posts: 47

Posted:

Our board is not only requiring signatures on the outer envelope (which is fine) but they say if we don't turn in our resident forms so that they can verify our signatures, then our ballot will be invalid. I don't see any such requirement in Davis Stirling. This will disenfranchise many voters. How can I tell them that this is an illegal or invalid election rule?

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LeilaniL on 09/15/2016 8:38 PM
Our board is not only requiring signatures on the outer envelope (which is fine) but they say if we don't turn in our resident forms so that they can verify our signatures, then our ballot will be invalid. I don't see any such requirement in Davis Stirling. This will disenfranchise many voters. How can I tell them that this is an illegal or invalid election rule?

It is against the law!

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Quote:

California Civil Code § 5115(a)

LeilaniL (California)
Posts: 47

Posted:

Thank you, Richard. This law doesn't necessarily indicate, though, that it would be illegal to require resident forms to be eligible to vote.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

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Quote:

Posted By LeilaniL on 09/15/2016 8:58 PM
Thank you, Richard. This law doesn't necessarily indicate, though, that it would be illegal to require resident forms to be eligible to vote.

It requires procedures that counties use. Counties throughout the United States conducts Presidential elections. Ever had your vote denied because you needed to fill out a form not related to the election?

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Does your HOA require Residents Forms with signatures when residents move in? And the Owners ignatures on such is rentals? If so, don't they have signatures for all owners already?

I'm trying to understand why many Owners would be disenfranchised without a signature on file?

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

http://www.davis-stirling.com/MainIndex/Signature-IdentityTheft/tabid/4518/Default.aspx

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

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Quote:

I am sure the Board has that requirement in the Association Election Rules.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I thought so too, Richard, but I believe Leilani has written elsewhere that they have no Election Rules.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Richard, your citation is about the signature on the outer envelope which does not concern Leilani. Nor should it since it
it's part of CA Civil Code's election procedures in CA HOAs.

LeilaniL (California)
Posts: 47

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Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 09/15/2016 10:02 PM
Does your HOA require Residents Forms with signatures when residents move in? And the Owners ignatures on such is rentals? If so, don't they have signatures for all owners already?

I'm trying to understand why many Owners would be disenfranchised without a signature on file?

Kerry, Since our association has changed management hands and managers a few times in the recent years, resident forms are lost in the transition. I turned mine in when I moved in. I'm sure they don't have it anymore. More importantly, many people including me are reluctant to turn in their personal information to this board that has already abused private information in a serious way. Not to mention the fact that the MC has lost or misplaced personal information several times.

So, I think that there are definitely homeonwers who would prefer not to vote than submit their signature, dog license, and other personal info to the kind of MC and board that we have. As well, some owners just may not get around to completing it or it may get lost in the mail or placed on another manager's desk and the board will think that no form is on file when in fact it was turned in. There are many scenarios that are very likely to happen.

LeilaniL (California)
Posts: 47

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Quote:

Posted By RichardP13 on 09/15/2016 10:15 PM

I am sure the Board has that requirement in the Association Election Rules.

We have no election rules and we shall see what the board does about that. I'll try telling them to keep their voting rules aligned with the county but I think they will interpret that law differently. Thank you for all you do on this forum, Richard.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 09/15/2016 10:20 PM
Richard, your citation is about the signature on the outer envelope which does not concern Leilani. Nor should it since it
it's part of CA Civil Code's election procedures in CA HOAs.

So why do you think they are requiring this form? The OP say it was to verify their signature.

I have a resident form also that does not require a signature. I have no place in my software to scan a signature for the purpose of verifying at election time. I used to work for elections at both LA City and LA County and their software did have a field for collecting signature from the voter registration card. I recalled a signature being matched once in 4 elections I served.

LeilaniL (California)
Posts: 47

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Quote:

Posted By RichardP13 on 09/15/2016 11:00 PM

I personally believe they are requiring the form so that they can either invalidate signatures (say they don't match) or make voters ineligible (if they don't have a form on file). Their goal is to stay in power and they will create rules on the fly to make that happen. I say this because they did it in the past.

When you say that "I recalled a signature being matched once in 4 elections I served," do you mean that they regularly checked every signature and the software only found one match in 4 elections? What signature were they comparing to?

Or do you mean that they only checked a signature once in 4 elections?

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Leilana

Once in 4 elections, which when you consider both primary and general was 8, during my tenure. LA County is the largest voting jurisdiction in the United States, with LA City number 2.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Leilani, please go to davis-stirling.com, election rules. The rules required by CA Civil Code have nothing to do with "voting rules" in municipalities, stead or whatever.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

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Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 09/15/2016 11:31 PM
Leilani, please go to davis-stirling.com, election rules. The rules required by CA Civil Code have nothing to do with "voting rules" in municipalities, stead or whatever.

I am sorry Kerry, but they do.

Civil Code §5115. Voting Procedure.

(a) Ballots and two preaddressed envelopes with instructions on how to return ballots shall be mailed by first-class mail or delivered by the association to every member not less than 30 days prior to the deadline for voting. In order to preserve confidentiality, a voter may not be identified by name, address, or lot, parcel, or unit number on the ballot. The association shall use as a model those procedures used by California counties for ensuring confidentiality of vote by mail ballots, including all of the following: [Old: Civ. Code §1363.03(e)]

As you should know, California forbids an election worker from asking for identification when a person votes. Tell them your name and address, sign and vote.

Here is the other problem, What if the resident form is placed inside the secret ballot envelope. You have just invalidated the ballot as now the voter has been identified.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

While the CA Davis-Stirling legislation may be based on CA county procedures, one does not need to read those county procedures to "do it right" at HOA elections.

It's similar to HOA ope meetings being patterned after the Ca Brown Act. We do not need to read the Brown Act to comprehend the statues for HOA open meetings.

I'm writing this because there's no need for Leilani to read those ancestors of Davis-Stirling statutes. BUT, she definetely should read D-S statutes to help her understand her own governing documents.

Tell me more about your Management company, Leilani. Do you have a full-time onsite property mgr? Where are HQ of your MC? Or is your PM the only person? IS s/her certified in any way?

Here's something to try: Several of you can chip in and visit a qualified HOA attorney. Bring specific irrefutable evidence that tour board is not following CA's or your own bylaws about holding recall elections. Pay him/her to write a letter to your Board, copying your MC & PM demanding that the election be conducting legally.

Btw, what is the exact wording of the requirement for a form with a signature on it?

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Kerry

I am not sure why the questions about the MC? What relevance does it have to this discussion.

If, as Leilana pointed out, the association has no election rules, then the ONLY involvement they would have is providing names and addresses to the properly appointed Inspection of Elections.

This is nothing is Civil Code requiring signatures to be matched to a database of sorts. IF, the association chooses to operate that way, IT BETTER have have documented in their Election Rules. Doing what they are doing is tantamount to voter suppression.

So the homeowners have to pay for an attorney to make sure the association is doing what they are supposed to do. How do you suggest they get reimbursed? If the MC was the inspector and they have no election rules, were they following California statues as they are supposed to do or is it alright to follow what the board directed them to do?

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

It's not unusual on this forum to suggest to homeowners who have bullying nasty boards who practice illegally to band together and pay an attorney to write a letter to the board & MC advising that they conduct the recall election legally. Unless Leilani is actually acting on her own, splitting an hour of an HOA attorney's time could be well worth it. It's cheaper than going to court, Richard, and MIGHT get this Board to shape up in time for the election!

I don't need to argue with you, Richard, I'm trying to come up with ways Leilani and her fellow homeowners can have better lives in their HOA. that COULD start with this recall election. What specific ideas can you offer to her ?

Elsewhere I've written that our contract with our MC requires our PM to follow the law and our governing documents NO MATTER WHAT the Board orders them to do. Leilani and her group need to read their contract with the MC to see if such a clause is in it (In the past, Richard, you've written that you've dumped accounts when boards have directed you to act illegally)

IF Leilani's contract has something like that in there, perhaps she and others can write to the MC saying they fully expect the recall election be be conducted exactly as it should be per the bylaws and state law. Even if they don't have that protection in their contract, they can write such a letter.

In other ways, too, an MC or PM can set a good tone for an election. Our MC's CEO comes from another county to attend ours along with our PM and asst. mgr.

LeilaniL (California)
Posts: 47

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 09/17/2016 2:07 PM
It's not unusual on this forum to suggest to homeowners who have bullying nasty boards who practice illegally to band together and pay an attorney to write a letter to the board & MC advising that they conduct the recall election legally. Unless Leilani is actually acting on her own, splitting an hour of an HOA attorney's time could be well worth it. It's cheaper than going to court, Richard, and MIGHT get this Board to shape up in time for the election!

I don't need to argue with you, Richard, I'm trying to come up with ways Leilani and her fellow homeowners can have better lives in their HOA. that COULD start with this recall election. What specific ideas can you offer to her ?

Elsewhere I've written that our contract with our MC requires our PM to follow the law and our governing documents NO MATTER WHAT the Board orders them to do. Leilani and her group need to read their contract with the MC to see if such a clause is in it (In the past, Richard, you've written that you've dumped accounts when boards have directed you to act illegally)

IF Leilani's contract has something like that in there, perhaps she and others can write to the MC saying they fully expect the recall election be be conducted exactly as it should be per the bylaws and state law. Even if they don't have that protection in their contract, they can write such a letter.

In other ways, too, an MC or PM can set a good tone for an election. Our MC's CEO comes from another county to attend ours along with our PM and asst. mgr.

Kerry, I like the idea of requiring the PM to follow the law regardless of what they are told by the board. Currently, that is our biggest problem. The MC insists they do not know the law and so they simply do what the board tells them to do or what the board's lawyer tells them to do. This is their answer all the time.

There are lawsuits pending against the HOA and they are definitely on notice that another rigged election will result in an injunction. I really don't think they care.

I won't go into details on the MC itself.

LeilaniL (California)
Posts: 47

Posted:

We finally got election rules from our PM. They reference the old DS code and have erroneous statements throughout. It's as if they have never heard of election rules or had to create any in several years, though they manage a large number of properties. We are informing the PM of all the issues in the rules. We'll see what happens.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Exact wording of resident form signature requirement, Leilani? Please?

Read your HOA's contract with your MC==it's must!

LeilaniL (California)
Posts: 47

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 09/18/2016 9:02 PM
Exact wording of resident form signature requirement, Leilani? Please?

Read your HOA's contract with your MC==it's must!

They haven't put it in writing yet. We only just got the election rules and they are outdated and don't match our governing documents and it doesn't mention the forms or signatures. I'll try to get ahold of the contract and read it. I am fairly certain it does not require the MC to follow the law but I'll see.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Please give examples of how your Election rules do not "match" your documents. Which docs? What exactly are the mismatches?

did the board discuss & vote on these rules at an open meeting?

LeilaniL (California)
Posts: 47

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 09/20/2016 9:36 PM
Please give examples of how your Election rules do not "match" your documents. Which docs? What exactly are the mismatches?

did the board discuss & vote on these rules at an open meeting?

Kerry, I don't see the need to quote the election rule and quote the docs and show how they don't match. Suffice to say, the citations of sections and articles don't match. Policies and procedures in the election rules contradict rules implemented last year by the board. The board did not discuss or vote on the election rules yet. Perhaps they will do that at the next meeting.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I'm pretty sure that you've r written previously that your HOA had no election rules. . But, OK, let's say it did. It's OK if the new ones are different. The thing is, the board should have discussed the changes at an open meeting. And then sent them out for Owners comments. Please read Davis-striling.com, Election Rules.

I ased for quotes because perhaps the conflicts you seem to see aren't significant. but since you should have a period of Onwer comment, use it to make corrections in writing per CA civil code and rules/rule changes.

LeilaniL (California)
Posts: 47

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 09/21/2016 8:47 AM
I'm pretty sure that you've r written previously that your HOA had no election rules. . But, OK, let's say it did. It's OK if the new ones are different. The thing is, the board should have discussed the changes at an open meeting. And then sent them out for Owners comments. Please read Davis-striling.com, Election Rules.

I ased for quotes because perhaps the conflicts you seem to see aren't significant. but since you should have a period of Onwer comment, use it to make corrections in writing per CA civil code and rules/rule changes.

We never had election rules. This is the first time they have drawn any up. The next open meeting is mid October, less than 30 days before the election. There will not be time for the appropriate review by all the owners before the election.

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