Radically changing HOA governance: Brainstorm Session

The entire structure of how HOA leadership operates must be changed. One board with total judicial, executive, and legislative control over members of the association just doesn't work, as it didn't in the Soviet Union, China, East Germany, pre-revolution Britain, etc.

And there has to be a cheaper way to address the tyranny which runs rampant in such a structure. They underlying motto of the board has always been "what are are they going to do? Sue us?" It finally took one gutsy homeowner with the time and money to actually do just that. $30k later and the board is still holding on to their power with dear life.

It's just a law of nature that most people cannot handle total control. The demons manifest. The greed and meanness manifests. This is what our founding fathers knew too. So, as a corporation, can an HOA create CCRs and BYLAWS that spread out the powers and duties, like our federal government does?

I'd like to brainstorm ways to fix this system that assumes all people are good.

Leilani,

Although I agree with you that their should be some separation of powers (perhaps a fining committee or enforcement committee vs. just the Board), unless you have members willing to serve, it doesn't do any good to have such a requirement.

In my Association, we have had a vacant seat (or two) on the Board for the past 5 years.
In my Association, we have about 10 percent (13 lots) represented in person at annual meetings (note, 4 or 5 of them are from the Board). We have another 10 to 15 percent represented by proxy.

Until you can find a way to remove membership apathy, I don't think forcing additional requirements on Associations will change anything.

Perhaps a State law that mandates attendance at annual meetings or a $500 fine will force membership apathy to subside. But then you have that pesky issue of government invading our personal lives thing many will complain about (especially when it affects them directly vs. affecting someone else).

Typically, the problem is with the membership who refuse to participate. In my Association, if those who do nothing would band together, they could rewrite all the governing documents and there wouldn't be a darn thing anyone who is typically active within the Association could do about it.

The bottom line is that, typically, the apathetic tend to hold the voting power but refuse to exercise it.

Nice idea. Too bad that governing documents typically will prevent that from happening.

Most Covenants specify that all members/Lots/Units will pay an equal share or a share based on percentage owned (usually in Condos). Therefore, the governing documents would prevent such benefits.

There have been many threads on waiving assessments for those who serve as Directors. However, that goes against some State Statutes and some Governing documents that specify Directors will not be paid for their work (and yes, waiving assessments is the same as paying as a monetary gain is achieved). There are also legal benefits in not being paid to serve and legal penalties if you are being paid.

Lets not forget about those pesky IRS rules. The covenants establish a debt. Waiving a portion of the debt, as you suggest, would require the Association to not only obtain the money from nonparticipating members through higher assessments to all, but also to file IRS form 1099-C for cancellation of debt. This would require the Association to now safeguard social security numbers of every member (something I would not want volunteers to be responsible for).

Perhaps a problem of too much government interference already?


I have children and my wife is a school teacher.
I have never heard of a reduction of costs for participation.

Perhaps you can provide some news articles or statutes to show how that is done in your area.

In California, which is heavily regulated, has no oversight for homeowners who believe their rights have been stepped upon. Boards, through their attorneys, funded by the very homeowners who feel violated, have been bullied. How widespread? I understand some groups have done surveys and said a high percentage of homeowners have above average level of satisfaction with the HOA in which they reside. I believe it is BS, but then that's my opinion based on experience.

I don't have a problem with someone complaining about the system, but offer up a solution.

Here is one solution and this applies to California.

We have 53,000 associations with an average of 100 units per association, giving us 530,000 units. Each unit contributes .25 monthly or $3.00 annually to a HOA defense fund that will be staffed to hear and oversee complaints from homeowners. Now, Boards and especially attorneys may think twice about some of the tactics they now employ.

The annual budget raised would be $15.9M. Monies CANNOT be wasted, that is non-negotiable. Any monies left over for the year DO NOT carry over, but get placed into an emergency fund, solely for the purpose of helping distressed HOA's manage their properties.

Well, you can just look at what goes on in your city council, state legislature or Congress and you would realize that not all people are good, so why do you think a HOA is run on the assumption that all people are good? When you get any group of people together to do anything, you have to assume that some folk will be more or less ethical, talented, hard working, etc. - and a few will be apathetic as hell, ignorant (and prefer staying that way), downright criminal, incapable to handling any type of power, etc. etc. etc.

It's been said HOAs are mini governments and just like you have to pay attention to what your elected officials are doing and work to toss them if they don't, you have to do the same with your HOA board. If you have a board running amok, the very first question I ask is why do the rest of the homeowners put up with this? Simple numbers suggest there are more of you than them, so it shouldn't take a lot to vote them out at the next election or recall them if they're truly dreadful. Unfortunately, most people sit there and do nothing, figuring "what good will it do?" and then act surprised and shocked when things go to shit and stay that way.

At some point, you hit your breaking point and you will either shut down or stand up. Look around on this board and you will see story after story of people who got fed up and did just that, like JonD and Tim - and in some cases it took years. There are people right now who are putting in the work to try and change things - hopefully they're getting ideas and encouragement from this site because we've all been there.

Your HOA is messed up? Get up, get out of your house and start talking to your neighbors. Maybe they're just as fed up as you, but felt there was no way to fight the power (to quote Public Enemy). Band together with those people and start educating everyone. From there, start attending meetings and asking questions - the board may ignore you at first and perhaps try to intimate you, but that's when you have to put them on notice that you're watching them and you will keep on doing so. Come to this site and you'll get a lot of good ideas on how HOAs can be run effectively (or not) and learn. When the time comes, get your neighbors together and vote these people out - THEN you can start the harder process of putting things back together.

It won't happen overnight and things may get worse before they get better, and you may not be the one to finish the work, but somebody has to start somewhere. And remember, this is a work in progress (just like people). You will still have to attend meetings once in awhile, read your documents, read the newsletters, check the website for updated information, do whatever you need to do to keep informed on what's going on in YOUR community, and hold your Board - and neighbors - accountable. Don't look for other people to do it for you, especially if they're as power mad as you say. Good luck to you.

There is always a faction that does not like how their BOD does things and wants "someone" to step in and change things rather than bring about the change themselves.

The ultimate control is elect BOD Members that think like you do and if that is not possible, then mount a group willing to put their money where their mouth is and legally go after the BOD.

Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

Leilani - life is full of armchair quarterbacks and in HOA's, they are in full force. Complaints are rampant against the Board. It comes with the territory. As to power, I don't see our Board as usurping power in the sense that you describe. Our motto is that we do what is "best for the community as a whole". That seems to satisfy most of the homeowners.

Linda, are you on the board of my HOA?

Jon may have cited this Zogby survey. Visit: http://www.davis-stirling.com/Portals/1/docs/2014-Poll.pdf

Zogby is very reputable and so is CAI who also was involved as well as their foundation. don't think it's BS as Richard alleges.

I believe that 80% are probably the apathetic majority that have no idea what is really going on behind the scenes. They go to work, home, school, play, and pay their dues and that's it. I have also heard that CAI favors vendors and boards so the survey may be biased.

Richard seems willing to dispute repeated surveys as to HOA satisfaction based on his limited personal expierence. Now in his capacity as an MC perhaps he can provide a survey contrary to those findings? Like some others he would rather perceive a level of dysfunction that now requires ........ Wait for it. More government involvement. Which requires more cost, more departments, more employees, more waste and uselessness.

So the 80% of owners who are satisfied should now pay the cost for the minority that is dissatisfied. That is Richard's solution. In a state already burdened
with overregulation and ineffective oversight. Davis-Stirling no thank you.

Reading posts from those operating in California makes me appreciate residing in NY. The role of board member is tough enough without needing to operate under the babble of a micromanaging law professor.

If memory serves this sort of thing was attempted in Florida. A fee was collected from HOA owners and those monies were transferred into the state's general account. With little to show for it.

More government, more courts, more somebody else doing what I can't manage to do is not and never will be the answer. But best to contact your local politician because they know it all. When has that ever worked?

And you would base that on what? Your residing in one HOA out of all those that exist nationwide?
So because the majority does not see the world your way they must be wrong? Where is your source which feeds your views?

And your knowledge regarding CAI is based on what you heard. Who could question that? If you heard it that makes it fact!

I believe the 80% are people who bought into an HOA to live their lives and find the advantages they provide make it a viable option for homeownership.

You certainly have a talent for twisting information and forming opinions based on little.

May be, could be, might be, has to be. Who could question that?

I base my comments on experience in over 120 different associations. Those numbers are far from being accurate. For a poll or survey to be reputable and have some merit you state how many people responded to the survey.

Really, 70% attend meetings.

Believe what you want, some know better.

As with all polls, one has to know the question and the respondents.

Was the question worded to give a skewed answer? Probably.
For example:

In your current community, have you ever attended any community association board meetings? (actual question from survey). This will give different numbers then a question of "In your current community, have you attended any Board meeting this year?

Same question asked of those who are active within the community (who are honestly the ones more likely to even respond to the poll) will have skewed results because those individuals have likely served on their Board at some time.

Asking that same question in a poll of this forum will likely have different results then asking the same question on an anti HOA forum.

The 2014 survey had 800 respondents-- a reliable number.

It's pretty easy to find a fault with any wording in any surveys. These look as good as any I've seen--no leading or biased questions.

Richard, 70% HAVE attended a meeting. And for the 12 years I've lived in our HOA, we always have made quorum for elections--every, single year. It seems that YOUR sample is skewed in dysfunctional directions....brrrrrr.

Perhaps we've seen the word "apathy" here, but it seems to come for 2-3 regular posters. Now, how's that for sample size??? I still think the word doesn't tell us much at all.

You're changing your story, Richard. Earlier you wrote: "In all my years, no association I have been involved has EVER reached quorum at an elections on their first try, except once."

You are going off the deep end about this. The sample was comprised of adults. And we can safely assume no more than one adult was sampled in a given household. How many adults live in HOAs? We know that a sample of 1,800 in the whole USA is regarded as reliable I think Zogby would never let their name be associated with shoddy sampling.

Why not just get rid of HOAs entirely? Is there really a necessity for this extra layer of "government by the unqualified" over the apathetic?
Transfer the dues to the local municipality, along with a standard set of "ordinances" for such former-associations. More difficult in the case of true condos and townhomes where maintenance of the structure is part of the dues.

Fred,

You may want to review the sites posting rules

I think a huge issue also comes from homeowner ignorance, apathy, and laziness.

For instance, in my community there is a sign for the area that has become unkempt and is in a state of disrepair. On our local community page on Facebook some homeowners saw this and demanded something be done. Some called for the HOA to fix it because they pay dues (their assessments are not a part of this). Others called for the local grocery store chain to pay for these repairs because they exist in our community and need to pay up because we shop there. My wife and I encouraged people to volunteer and fix it ourselves. The response - the complainers still complained that "someone" needed to fix it, some said they would go out and help, and the rest remained quiet. In the end my wife and another homeowner went out there and fixed it up. There is still a lot more that can be done but they did what they could.

I am going to start a new thread on this topic. Thank you!

You could start by suing those who held the guns to your head and forced you to buy into an HOA.

In many counties (including mine), the County won't approve a subdivision plat unless the developer has filed a declaration establishing a mandatory HOA. Therefore, for most people wanting to buy a new home, they have no choice. They have to buy in a subdivision with a mandatory HOA.

all while collecting taxes for services.