Front Entrance Landing for Upper Entry

Started by IM1 • 24 replies • 1636 views

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IM1 (California)
Posts: 44

Posted:

Hello Everyone!

I am still learning about HOA governance. I am need of some assistance. Would you be willing to help with this HOA puzzle?

The Pieces:

-Our California HOA has some of our upper units with a private balcony separated from a front entrance landing that is accessible to anyone.

-Property Management has recently informed me that the front entrance landing is the responsibility of the homeowner.

-Homeowners maintain the front entrance landing by sweeping and following rules and regulations (i.e. avoid placement of objects that could trap water).

-In CC&Rs under Article VI, Responsibility of Owners, part of what is written under Maintenance of Living Unit states:

“..Each Owner shall also be responsible for the maintenance and repair of the patios, decks and storage areas, which he/she has the exclusive right to use, including the interior, interior surfaces of fences and railings and any windows, and shall make repairs in such manner as shall be deemed necessary in the judgement of the Board to preserve the attractive appearance thereof and protect the value thereof. The Association shall maintain and repair all parking spaces which are Exclusive Common Areas.”

-Our recent Reserve Study shows a line item for Waterproofing and Coating (80) Landings. In addition, there are recommendations for Waterproofing Resurfacing-Upper Entry Landings for general scheduled maintenance which includes inspections and resealing.

Based on the above information, would you agree that the repairs for front entrance landings are the responsibility of the HOA or am I missing something?

Any input that would help clarify this is much appreciated. Thank you!

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Once it is exclusive use of the owner, then the HOA just monitors/enforces restrictions but do not maintain. The HOA does maintain the areas that are exclusive use of the HOA or what is defined as "Common area". So your landing is yours but what is shared is everyone. Once shared by everyone, then the HOA funds are used.

Now it is possible to have everyone's exclusive use area landings to be included in the maintenance. However, you are ALL going to have to pay for it. Meaning a possible special assessment to raise the additional funds needed for the additional work. If you have enough owners who want this, then understand you ALL have to divide the extra expense equally amongst you all.

Former HOA President

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Welcome to the forum, IM1. Please disregard Melissa's reply; she doesn't live in an HoA a such as yours, wasn't prez of one like yours, and AL has very different legislation than CA about HOAs,

Sadly, I don't have time to reply right now, but go to davis-stirling.com, a site compiled by CA HOA attorneys. On the Home page, you'll see newsletters. Within the past 3-4 months there was a major article exactly about your topic. try to find it. Meantime, perhaps Richard will reply and ill be helpful, I'm sure.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

If the front entrance landing is shared by more than one unit then the adjacent owners should not be liable for maintenance, based on what you posted. If it is a shared-use entry, how does the MC determine which owner is responsible?

DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046

Posted:

The reserve study should just be based on the CCRs so I wouldn't consider anything there to be definitive of responsibility.

Assuming the landing isn't explictly listed in the CCRs, it appears the responsibility hinges on the statement "exclusive right to use". It seems the landing is openly accessible to anyone, but meant for the use and benefit of one unit. Hopefully some of our condo dwellers can weigh in on how their association would handle this area.

You mentioned not being too familiar with association governance, here are some Cliff's notes:
The association has various governing documents, in the case of conflicts there is a precedence that determines which one rules. If the docs are in conflict with laws, the laws win unless the law cedes authority to the association docs.

The board is elected by the members and has various responsibilities and duties as outlined in the docs, high among them the obligations to maintain common areas and collect dues.

The PM/MC (if any) is hired by the board to assist the board in carrying out it's duties. The MC answers to the board, although some people seem to get confused about this.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.

IM1 (California)
Posts: 44

Posted:

Hi Larry,

Thanks for responding. The front entrance landing is not shared by more than one unit.

IM1 (California)
Posts: 44

Posted:

Hello Douglas,

What you said makes sense to me about the Exclusive Right To Use. I like your Cliff notes. Thanks!

IM1 (California)
Posts: 44

Posted:

Thank you Kerry for the info about D/S!

I am interested in discussing the issue about exclusive common areas with anyone in CA because of the new law changes that has many confused.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

First, IM1, can you describe in more detail this "front entrance landing?" To me, a landing is where one steps, say, between the 1st & 2nd floor. It can be interior or exterior. (Mine in NC was the latter). So 3rd floor residents walk on the 2nd floor landing to the stairs to reach the 3rd floor. Please help me understand this part of your HOA, which seems to be a condo. Also "upper entry landings?" Your reserves study recs reserving for them (whatever they are), but hasn't assigned a line item number? It could be these landings are common area and not exclusive use common area.

And first you say it's accessible to anyone and then that it's not used by more than one unit.

Other states call them different things, but in CA, there are exclusive use common areas. Your balcony most likely is one.

Since your reserves study suggests reserving for w'proofing, etc, your upper landings. Our reserves analyst doesn't review the CC&Rs unless he's doing a highest level study. The other two, he relies on our PM for info. But your PM might be wrong, IM1, including with the opinion given to you.

Your CC&R is almost identical to ours, and makes it sound like Owners must repair their exclusive use desk, patios, etc., not just "maintain" them. That fits right into the article I cited, "Maintenance Defined" at D-S.com. Your CC&Rs say nothing about a landing.

But CC&Rs usually have, too, a section about Association Responsibility. Does yours?

From D-S.com re maintenace: Check CA Cibi vil Code §4775(a)(3): "Unless otherwise provided in the declaration of a common interest development, the owner of each separate interest is responsible for maintaining the exclusive use common area appurtenant to that separate interest and the association is responsible for repairing and replacing the exclusive use common area."

"Associations should create maintenance charts with clearly defined duties. Those with existing charts will need to update them to include more detail. Some associations will need to amend their CC&Rs."

IM1 (California)
Posts: 44

Posted:

I have an upper unit that has a front deck for entering and leaving the premises and is open to any foot traffic. This is what I meant by front entrance landing. I got the term "landing" from our recent Reserve Study.

The Reserve Study has a line item for Waterproofing-Coating Landings which includes an annual funding requirement, etc. In the physical analysis, under component inventory, the report mention that the landing decks themselves should last the life of the project and are not a typical reserve allocated item. It goes on to state that regular upkeep be a matter of standard policy and resurfacing will be needed periodically.

Since your CC&Rs sounds similar, here is my recent findings related to exclusive use common area that might help you, too.

According to an HOA attorney, "What many board members and homeowners failed to realize is that exclusive use common areas is really nothing more than common area which an owner has the exclusive right to use. So, it should have been clear that because it is common area, it is still the Association's obligation to repair/replace. Typically, exclusive use common area is defined in an association's governing documents as patio, balconies and/or parking spaces."

New legislation effective Jan 2017 will make this clear. Apparently, there is difference between old and new Civil Code 4775.

Continuing with what the HOA attorney says.."While this new legislation clears up ambiguities in the Civil Code, there are many managers, board members, and even attorneys who have come up with their own interpretations as to who is responsible for exclusive use common area and have assigned same to the homeowners"

We currently do not have a matrix that addresses responsibilities of HOA and homeowners. That is a great idea!

I thought bringing this matter and my own inspection report to the board meeting recently would be the path to resolution and not confusion. With 3 minutes allotted time, I maxed out and no one wanted to hear more. At that time, the property manager did not say who was responsible until I received an email that said, it was mine. Our property manager seems to fall into the category as described based on my new discoveries.

As a result of my request for attention to my concerns, the HOA is now getting a proposal from the same company who did my inspection to bid for inspecting all entries which is good because the board needs to know about the upcoming new law.

HOA education can make one feel like it is a life long learning deal ;) Some good, some not so good. Knowledge is empowerment.

Your thoughts are welcomed and appreciated.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Still trying to "see" it, IM1. It sounds like it's outside? Is it open to the elements? What reasons would anyone else have for using it? How many stories is your building?

I think you need to attend the next Board meeting too and ask the Board or the PM to relate to you what governing doc says that you must repair it. Where does it say that this area IS exclusive use common area?

IM1 (California)
Posts: 44

Posted:

The front deck is open to the elements and the upper unit is a second story of a two story building. UPS delivery, neighbor visiting, etc. So, to me the HOA does have responsibility. Mystery solved, I think. Lol

Your thoughts?

IM1 (California)
Posts: 44

Posted:

Kerry,

I think you answered me with your second reply. I believed that I was responsible when based on knowing that the deck landing was included as a reserve item and the report states that the deck landing is not a typical reserve allotted item, then I further studied your responses. I realized that you were correct.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

IM1. So...there are stairs leading to your landing, which is at your front door. Thanks for the description. Under HOA Responsibility, do your CC&Rs say stairs?

If so, I should think that the landing also is the HOA responsibility.

Your HOA comprises one 2 story building? Or several 2-story buildings?

"In addition, there are recommendations for Waterproofing Resurfacing-Upper Entry Landings for general scheduled maintenance which includes inspections and resealing."

IM1: "In addition, there are recommendations for Waterproofing Resurfacing-Upper Entry Landings for general scheduled maintenance which includes inspections and resealing."
The thing is, IM1, that this is your analyst's rec, right? But it's not listed as a reserve component. At least that's how I understand it. Can you give us the exact wording? Is the analysts suggesting this be an operation budget line item?

Whichever the case, components listed in reserves studies are the responsibility of the HOA.

See Richard replied to your new post so might look at this one.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

IM1

In reading your first post, it appears to me your reference to your CCRs is that of your patio. You mention the reserve study has a line item for waterproofing and coating. Does it have any line item for repair or maintenance?

There is nothing in California statues that in this instance would say all buildings are treated the same. The documents will dictate what the level of responsibility for your specific building.

In reviewing HOA's, I find that the vast majority don't have a HOA responsibility list recorded with their CCRs.

Here is an attorney view of waterproofing that might be similar to your situation. http://www.davis-stirling.com/tabid/1472/Default.aspx

Because of potential damage and HOA liability, the Association should make sure they have clarity on this issue.

IM1 (California)
Posts: 44

Posted:

First the property manager and the board had no resolution about my front entrance (landing deck) problems at the last HOA meeting. I was not told that repairs for my front entrance (landing deck) would be the HOA's responsibility. No one was interested in seeing my deck inspection report that I had with me. I was unable to finish because the board president told me that I was over time by 11 seconds. So beyond 3 minutes, I was out of luck.

Now, the property manager responded with an email that the HOA will take responsibility for the repairs that I need done. Hopefully, this will get done before winter.

Thank you Kerry for everything!

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Sounds promising, IM1.

I'm still curious, though, about how many condo building are in your HOA and their configurations. There are many of us condo folk who visit this site.

IM1 (California)
Posts: 44

Posted:

15 two-story multi-family buildings (in groupings of 8 and 12 plex configurations)

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Thanks, IM1; my typo should have said there are NOT many condo HOAs represented here.

IM1 (California)
Posts: 44

Posted:

Richard, I did not see your response earlier. Thank you for your assistance. The D/S info is helpful. There are three line items each say "Waterproofing- R&R and New System" below the Waterproofing-Coating (Landings). I am not familiar with reserve studies. I assume R&R is repair and replace.

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

'generally'

R&R = remove and replace

eg. when your car's battery dies you may find either 'install' or 'R&R' battery on the invoice as a labor charge in addition to the new battery's cost

IM1 (California)
Posts: 44

Posted:

Thank you PitA!

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I'm not so sure it means "remove & replace." None of our 3 reserves analysts (in 5 years) used those initials. Reserves are specifically set up for the (often major) repair and replacement of components.

So, IM1, ask your PM. Or read the whole reserve study, which often has a glossary & definitions. Also go to davis-stirling.com, Reserves to learn a lot!

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

R & R means Remove and Reinstall.

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 09/03/2016 3:14 PM
I'm not so sure it means "remove & replace." None of our 3 reserves analysts (in 5 years) used those initials. Reserves are specifically set up for the (often major) repair and replacement of components.

So, IM1, ask your PM. Or read the whole reserve study, which often has a glossary & definitions. Also go to davis-stirling.com, Reserves to learn a lot!

Your xyz fails to function.

You either repair OR replace it.

It may happen that you repair it and then find the item STILL faulty, then replace it LATER.

However, as Richard pointed out, it could mean either:

Remove and Replace

or

Remove and Reinstall

Sheez, it's merely shorthand, not nuclear physics

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