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LesaB2 (Missouri)
Posts: 6
Posted:
Heres my problem..My HOA sends out a newsletter to everyone in our neighborhood.In this newsletter is a list of delinquent homeownwers, My name was on this list my Name and Address however I am completely paid up on my dues have all my receipts I even pay early!! Now I contacted the HOA to let the know about my name being on the shame list even though I have paid, they admitted to the mistake apologized but REFUSED to send out a retraction about my name even though they admitted FAULT. I also do business matters with some of my neighbors and I feel this will affect my business...Is there ant recourse? Can I sue?
DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046
Posted:
You can pretty much sue anybody for anything. Whether you would win and what you might collect if you do are the questions. A lawyer can give you an opinion on that, but the final answer is up to the judge or possibly jury. Generally you would have a better case if you can show actual damages rather than "it might hurt my business".

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
There are many lawyers who would advise against publishing names due to the possibility of errors being made.

My guess a lawyer could advise you as to whether you have grounds for a defamation claim. Now what that might permit in the way of awards would depend on your state laws.

My one suggestion get everything in writing. All discussions using mail, e-mail to build a case if that is a road you wish to go down.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
LesaB2, you're right; not cool at all. Robert's Rules #72 even talks about not publishing the names of people who have been duly noticed; had a hearing; and were found guilty of the violation, since even in this instance, a court case resulted in a bad outcome for the publisher.

Damages are unlikely, but you do have a claim of invasion of privacy, false light. You can look at some Missouri court decisions on this via googling as follows: {"false light" missouri site:justia.com}.

For the sake of everyone whose name may be wrongly published in a false light, and since you have already politely voiced your objection, and because I would be furious were I you, I would send a "letter of demand" (google) to the Board to print a retraction or else (yada).

Like the others said, document all communications with the HOA on this matter.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,060
Posted:
If you can prove it actually does affect your business, then you might have a cause of action against the Association.
BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LesaB2 on 08/26/2016 4:14 AM
. . .they admitted to the mistake apologized but REFUSED to send out a retraction about my name even though they admitted FAULT. I also do business matters with some of my neighbors and I feel this will affect my business...Is there an(y)recourse ? Can I sue?

LesaB2 Missouri : 1 - My totally voluntary/'no vires' HOA one year conversely published a list of owner contributions payments made in good standing ( technically the opposite of shaming but still allowing other stakeholders to identify alleged arrearants by name & address). I had hand-delivered payment with word-processed details - all retained in photocopy.

On balance I quickly advised but chalked it up to volunteerism by frail humans in an imperfect world. I also clarified such low key to several neighbours. But NONE of those had an economic relationship with us.

Never got any apology nor retraction. But published 'reverse shaming' stopped immediately. (But out of sight, what could also happen to anyone's reputation with the error unpublished ? )

2- 'Tough love' shaming without an intervening follow up request, opens the door to exactly this sort of reputational injury. To be fair, an improperly overlooked payment(s)could have gone astray through multiple hands. Financial institutions processing your payment(s) can make errors. PMCs make errors or delay recognizing the revenue.

Unless your state's law & your CCRs Declaration clearly impose a 'guarantee' duty of care onto the volunteer(s) involved in such an error - "We are insurers of total accuracy/perfection - your business damage may not have an easy time getting made whole again after an unintentional purely volunteer error. Unpaid volunteers may get some Teflon coating, and whose error was it ?

If the error arose from a paid professional's carelessness or an intentional wrong claim, maybe a better chance.

3 - But here the error was refused a retraction despite an admission of fault, and may damage your business howsoever slow or uncertain to prove. Worth considering publishing yourself and seeking small claims re-imbursement.

Like any other victim of a false report, one might have to also prove an immediate complaint & refusal of credible correction notice(s). But who ever reads those ? Bad news / downers spread like wildfire compared to erratum notice/good news, consistent with what Mark Twain wryly noted.

4 - Respectfully maybe you and others should expect a commensurate retraction if only to 'discipline' future shamings. Maybe you should consider publishing yourself and seeking redress in small claims if it's worth it.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
You might find this helpful.

http://kellywarnerlaw.com/missouri-defamation-laws/
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I would again and in writing, contact the Board demanding a retraction. I'd be fine with the retraction being small at the end of the News. I'd write it myself following the format used in your local newspaper for the board to use.

Who writes the News? A board member? Prop. mgr.?

There are some on this forum who DO believe in public shaming, but the Board's first responsibility is to protect the HOA from all manner of things---including lawsuits.

LesaB2 (Missouri)
Posts: 6
Posted:
the board members write the newsletter.
LesaB2 (Missouri)
Posts: 6
Posted:
and I am fine with the retraction..however they refuse
we live in a small subdivision and now I get hateful stares from people because of this and I have lived here 18 years!!
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
If like our HOA, Lesa, one person writes the News though others may contribute. I'd still ask again copying all directors.

Do you have their admission of fault in writing??
LesaB2 (Missouri)
Posts: 6
Posted:
No admission of fault in writing (our phone conversersation-he admitted they were wrong ) however i have proof that i paid early and they cashed early. I would just think they would double check all payments before publishing a list of shame. And if they are incorrect they should be shamed and have to retract statement. I amazingly contacted an atty today in my area and it so happened to be the atty that represents my HOA. After my conservation with the atty he advised me that he would be sending a letter free of charge (only cuz HOA is his client)to HOA to advise them to print a retraction if my information is correct. So I am keeping my fingers crossed!!!
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LesaB2 on 08/26/2016 1:30 PM
No admission of fault in writing (our phone conversersation-he admitted they were wrong ) however i have proof that i paid early and they cashed early. I would just think they would double check all payments before publishing a list of shame. And if they are incorrect they should be shamed and have to retract statement. I amazingly contacted an atty today in my area and it so happened to be the atty that represents my HOA. After my conservation with the atty he advised me that he would be sending a letter free of charge (only cuz HOA is his client)to HOA to advise them to print a retraction if my information is correct. So I am keeping my fingers crossed!!!

If you can get the admission in writing, I would take them to court. Refusing to retract after admitting they were wrong is unthinkable.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
That HOA attorney is NOT your attorney. It's the HOA's. He/She will be the same one representing the HOA in a lawsuit. Think the attorney is just sending the letter to the HOA as a heads up to consider changing their policy. Which is really what needs to happen. I don't believe in "shaming" one for not paying dues. Instead I think the HOA should do their proper job in pursuing unpaid debts owed. Establishing a policy of when one is late and when to take action. We had a 6 months we liened and 1 year we CONSIDERED foreclosure. We never had to publish a name or even referenced names. We only referenced lot numbers and what actions we were taking.

So instead of suing (suing your HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors), concentrate on changing this shaming process. Sometimes this practice backfires. When it does, it's mud on the HOA's face and the innoncent owner. However, I wouldn't be embarrassed so much for the fact this happened. I'd just make sure it wasn't done again.

Former HOA President
LesaB2 (Missouri)
Posts: 6
Posted:
My intent is not to sue I just wanted a retraction sent out, however they refused even though they admitted the mistake on the telephone.
LesaB2 (Missouri)
Posts: 6
Posted:
i understand making an error, we all do at one point..but then once its agreed it was wrong. they should retract the statement. Sort of right the wrong.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/26/2016 2:39 PM
That HOA attorney is NOT your attorney. It's the HOA's. He/She will be the same one representing the HOA in a lawsuit. Think the attorney is just sending the letter to the HOA as a heads up to consider changing their policy. Which is really what needs to happen. I don't believe in "shaming" one for not paying dues. Instead I think the HOA should do their proper job in pursuing unpaid debts owed. Establishing a policy of when one is late and when to take action. We had a 6 months we liened and 1 year we CONSIDERED foreclosure. We never had to publish a name or even referenced names. We only referenced lot numbers and what actions we were taking.

So instead of suing (suing your HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors), concentrate on changing this shaming process. Sometimes this practice backfires. When it does, it's mud on the HOA's face and the innoncent owner. However, I wouldn't be embarrassed so much for the fact this happened. I'd just make sure it wasn't done again.

Actually, Melissa, it is her attorney. She is going to kill two birds with one stone.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LesaB2 on 08/26/2016 1:30 PM
I amazingly contacted an atty today in my area and it so happened to be the atty that represents my HOA. After my conservation with the atty he advised me that he would be sending a letter free of charge (only cuz HOA is his client)to HOA to advise them to print a retraction if my information is correct. So I am keeping my fingers crossed!!!

What a strange coincidence. I give a lot of credit to this attorney.

On the other hand, from an academic standpoint ---
I agree with MelissaP that the HOA attorney is not the attorney for any member whose interests are adverse to the board's, as they are in this case. I think the attorney here just broke attorney-client privilege by telling (LesaB2) that he was going to tell his client (effectively, the Board here) to print a retraction.

Practically speaking I am hopeful that LesaB2 will get the retraction at some point. Even if she has to wave the exchange here under the directors' noses as documentation that the HOA attorney told the directors to, 'fix it.'

I would love to hire this attorney for my HOA. "Free of charge" letter writing; get out of town! This guy is a straight shooter acting in the best interests of the HOA, not the friggin' board.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Interesting approach, Augustin. Yes, the stoney IS acting in the best interests of the HOA by wanting them to avoid getting sued!! I hope the aottney makes it clear to then board the trouble they could get their entire HOA involved in with their stubbornness & egos!
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 08/26/2016 4:11 PM
Interesting approach, Augustin. Yes, the stoney IS acting in the best interests of the HOA by wanting them to avoid getting sued!! I hope the aottney makes it clear to then board the trouble they could get their entire HOA involved in with their stubbornness & egos!

Bingo! The lawyer is protecting his paying client. This board has exposed themselves to liability and amazingly out of a few thousand lawyers the OP
decided to pick their name out of the phone book. This puts a feather in their cap and serves their future relationship with the HOA.

Life Rule # 236: If a lawyer offers their services for free no doubt that action will pay them back several times what they could have charged you.
Lawyers don't do free. When way or another they make out.
BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002
Posted:
There is a difference between quickly & sincerely publishing a retraction for some quickly forgotten human error - maybe like the above - and making an admission that could jeopardize one's defence to a major civil harm. An adequate quick retraction would try to limit damage.

Interviews with medical malpractice victims for example, sometimes indicate that many disputes could have been avoided or handled cheaper & with less rancour, if the error-maker simply and personally apologizes to the patient as sincerely and quickly as possible. It may preclude attempts to get governing bodies to lift a professional's licence. Cutting off the wrong leg of course may not be such of course.

Further if your jurisdiction has enacted an 'apology statute' to preclude an apology itself being held to evidence an admission of civil liability, check it out with your counsel.
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
? What monetary damage could LesaB2 PROVE ?

She does 'business' with her neighbors !?

? On the books, reported, licensed, taxes filed business ?

If the County Tax Department published a list of 'delinquent' property owners and her name was erroneously listed ...................................... ?

The publication of the list proves the system actually works ... the error was corrected PROMPTLY.

However, let the talk continue.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PitA on 08/27/2016 6:00 AM
? What monetary damage could LesaB2 PROVE ?

The tort of defamation requires proof of damage to one's reputation. The tort of false light (invasion of privacy) does not. For false light, a showing of humiliation and embarrassment (= emotional harm), consistent with what a "reasonable person" would feel, is enough.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BobD4 on 08/26/2016 8:26 PM

Interviews with medical malpractice victims for example, sometimes indicate that many disputes could have been avoided or handled cheaper & with less rancor, if the error-maker simply and personally apologizes to the patient as sincerely and quickly as possible. It may preclude attempts to get governing bodies to lift a professional's licence. Cutting off the wrong leg of course may not be such of course.

Glad you mentioned this, Bob. These studies showing malpractice claims are lower if the physician simply apologizes have been on my mind ever since I wrongly had my voting rights denied. I had started with what I felt was a polite informal email to the board that objected to the denial of voting rights. At the same time, I also complimented them for their service; acknowledged how difficult their job is; and apologized for putting this on their plate when they had just taken office (though all were repeat directors). Sixteen days passed, and my now formal complaint had not even been acknowledged. This was all while the election-CPA's meter was running as he tabulated the final voting statistics. It took a month of steady, mechanical elevation of tone to correct the problem. When I finally won my right to vote back, the Board president publicly chastised me for "complaining" and told falsehoods about how I had approached this. This was just the opposite of a simple 'Oops; the Board goofed. The Board apologizes.' Naturally for the most part, a board that is corrupt in one instance will repeat this in subsequent instances. Their neural networks are programmed, and it's hard to break a cycle of a Board thinking that their election translates to their thinking legally they can do whatever they want.

If I win election to my HOA's board in the coming year, I plan to raise such studies, of how apologizing for medical mistakes lowers rancor, with the new board as needed.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
On studies of how apologies de-escalate a situation:

Sometimes, an Apology Can Deter a Lawsuit
July, 2010, Diane Curtis, Staff Writer, California Bar Journal

James Woods knows the power of apology. The intense, versatile actor, known for roles in such films as “The Onion Field” and “Ghosts of Mississippi,” had no intention of even talking to representatives of Kent Hospital in Warwick, R.I., which he and his nephew had sued in the death of his brother Michael. But a “change in rhetoric” that included a heartfelt apology from hospital President Sandra Colletta ended his determination not to settle. The result, besides better feelings between the parties, was a financial agreement taking care of his brother’s children and a promise to create a patient safety institute in his brother’s name.
The apology “made discussion possible in a case where I had no interest in settlement and was absolutely certain of victory,” Woods said in an e-mail. His entire family, he added, “did agree that Ms. Colletta’s apology was genuine and not a ploy.”

Apology and disclosure are making headway in legal disputes — or even before a legal dispute has arisen. In the Woods case, the apology came in the lawsuit involving Michael Woods, 49, who died of a heart attack after being admitted for a sore throat and vomiting. A doctor testified that she ordered that he be put on a heart monitor, but that never happened. Testimony indicated Woods was on a gurney in a hospital hallway for more than an hour when he had his heart attack.

But apologies are not just limited to medical malpractice cases. University of Illinois law professor Jennifer Robbennolt has done a series of studies that show apologies can help resolve legal disputes in cases ranging from medical malpractice and divorce and custody to disputed dismissals and personal injury. “Conventional wisdom has been to avoid apologies because they amount to an admission of guilt that can be damaging to defendants in court,” says Robbennolt, who surveyed more than 550 people about their reaction to apologies offered during settlement negotiations in a hypothetical injury case. “But the studies suggest apologies can actually play a positive role in settling legal cases. “The apology fulfills some of the goals that triggered the suit, such as a need for respect to assign responsibility and to get a sense that what happened won’t happen again. So receiving an apology can reduce financial aspirations and make it possible for parties to enter into discussions about settlement.”

The restorative justice movement, which is gaining adherents throughout the world, uses apology — written or verbal — as a way for an offender to accept responsibility for hurting a victim. The apology accepts that real harm was caused by his or her conduct and that the victim did not deserve the harm. Restitution comes after the apology. “Apologies make a huge difference,” says Noelle Daoudian, executive director of the Victim Offender Reconciliation Program of the Central Valley, which practices restorative justice. But, she adds, they need to be sincere. “If the offender is not remorseful, we don’t want to revictimize the victim.” Apologies are used in cases from vandalism to theft to battery, Daoudian notes, and young people who go through the process have a lower recidivism rate than those who don’t.
Eureka attorney/mediator John Gromala says “an apology helps change the tenor of discussion,” and he has seen it work in right-of-way disputes, real estate transactions, partnership disputes, estate litigation, management team dysfunction, hostile work environment and estate planning. “Apologies have had significant impact in mediations I have conducted involving many different matters,” he says.

Still, the widest use to date of apologies in legal disputes involves medical malpractice. Some California hospital groups, including San Francisco-based Catholic Healthcare West (CHW) and the Los Angeles Veterans Administration, adhere to a policy of full disclosure, which means that “adverse events” are acknowledged and investigated. Hospital officials will make an apology if it’s warranted and in some cases offer compensation. Even if an apology is not due, the medical care team will make an effort to empathize with the patient’s concerns. Stanford University Medical Center has a variation called Process for the Early Assessment and Resolution of Loss.

“It’s just the right thing to do,” says Barbara Pelletreau, vice president of patient safety and clinical risk management at CHW. According to a document about the healthcare system’s philosophy, “CHW is committed to full and timely disclosure in a manner that expresses our values and fair compensation to a patient or the family by the responsible parties, whether that is CHW, one of our partner health care providers, or both.” The values to which the document refers are dignity, collaboration, justice, stewardship and excellence.
Dr. Lester Jones, a dean and professor at Western University of Health Sciences College of Podiatric Medicine in Pomona, is “a very big advocate of disclosure.” As associate chief of staff for 10 years at the VA Greater Los Angeles Health Care System, Dr. Jones created the disclosure program there and organized the meetings with patients and their families to explain what had happened. A discussion may have to do with bedsores, loss of life or limb or near-misses like how a nurse stopped just short of dispensing the wrong medicine or how a doctor determined that he was about to operate on the wrong cataract.

“Many of us always practiced honesty,” says Dr. Jones. “I always told my patients about the outcome of everything I did for them. Over the years, I found people appreciated being told in advance what my expectations were . . . Disclosure is really about open communication.”
An apology, he adds, “sets the stage for a totally different atmosphere” than the one in which the patient and his family vow to punish to the utmost and get as much money as possible. With an apology, many who are offered the opportunity to sue don’t take it, says Dr. Jones. “When you’re honest with people and showing you’re trying to prevent adverse events, people get behind you and want to support you.”

The goal of the apology was not to prevent lawsuits, Dr. Jones emphasized. It was to do what’s right, and being honest with the patient goes hand in hand with the aim of openly acknowledging mistakes so safer procedures and systems can be created. “We were realizing there were a lot of medical misadventures taking place at the VA and we knew something needed to be done,” Dr. Jones says.

Carol Bayley, vice president of ethics and justice education for CHW, warns that there’s a big difference between disclosure and apology. “You have to be careful you don’t apologize for something you didn’t do.” That doesn’t mean health officials have to refrain from empathizing if something goes amiss and they don’t believe it’s their fault. California is one of 35 states that has a version of the “apology” law, which holds that apologies are inadmissible as evidence in court. However, “I’m sorry for what happened” is not the same as “I made a mistake,” and an admission of responsibility is admissible. “The California Evidence Code manifestly discourages the human tendency to apologize or express regret over an incident caused by negligence,” retired Judge Quentin Kopp wrote in support of California’s apology law. “Yet, apologies reduce the anger of those who otherwise would sue from anger.”

Los Angeles healthcare attorney Harry Nelson says he counsels his doctor clients “to be careful because they can make heartfelt expressions of empathy (that carry apologetic overtones) without putting themselves at risk of an admissible statement, but if they actually apologize in a way that takes responsibility, that becomes admissible evidence.”
Nelson has had experience “where the doctors set the table for nominal settlements — and at least one case where the matter was resolved without money — by empathetic communications.” Still, he adds, most plaintiffs have some “hard cost,” such as follow-up care or an operative procedure. “If they feel the doctor was empathetic, they will resolve cases for those hard costs and forego the larger ‘pain and suffering’ damages that a malpractice lawsuit would seek.” He doubts, though, “that even the best apology would get them to not seek at least those hard costs.”

When responsibility does lie at the feet of the doctor, nurse or some other healthcare official, not just any apology will do. “If it’s scripted or if it sounds like some lawyer wrote it, I promise you, the family won’t bite,” says Doug Wojcieszak, founder of the Sorry Works! Coalition, an organization that promotes disclosure, apology and upfront compensation when warranted. “When something goes wrong to upset the patient or upset the family, the first thing to do is empathize: ‘I’m sorry this happened; we’re going to investigate.’ Even if you don’t think you made a mistake, empathize.” If the investigators find that the medical practitioners were at fault, “go back to the family and apologize.” Even if no fault is found, he recommends explaining the investigators’ findings to the family.

“It changes the discussion from, ‘I want to punish you; I want to get as much money from you as I can,’” to a conversation about what the patient and her family need. If there is fault, Wojcieszak adds, “money will still exchange hands, but it’s not a lottery ticket.” There also are savings in litigation costs and time, he notes. If cases do go to court and a patient has already turned down what seems like a reasonable offer of compensation, the hospital or doctor “isn’t the bad guy anymore.”

CHW representatives say they don’t know if lawsuits have decreased as a result of disclosure, but others who have adopted the policy say it has made a difference. The University of Michigan Health System reports that malpractice claims against its system fell from 121 in 2001 to 61 in 2006. Average time to process a claim decreased from 20 months to eight months and costs per claim were half as much. The VA Medical Center in Lexington, Ky., the pioneer in full disclosure, reported that in a 13-year period, the facility went to trial only three times and negotiated more than 170 settlements, the mean cost being $36,000 compared to $98,000 pre-trial, $248,000 at trial and $413,000 malpractice judgments at VA hospitals nationwide. On the other hand, a survey of legal, risk management and healthcare officials by a group of Harvard researchers led by David Studdert found that there was a 95 percent chance that total claim volume would increase with full disclosure policies.

Wojcieszak, of Sorry Works!, says the study is flawed in large part because the researchers did not contact any institutions that practice full disclosure. From what he has seen, Wojcieszak adds, the policy works for both patients and hospitals and the apology philosophy can work in cases far beyond medical malpractice. “This is so applicable to every walk of life,” he says. “When you talk about disputes in general, whether medical malpractice or business, it’s about a breakdown in communication, a breakdown in trust.”
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 08/27/2016 6:20 AM
Posted By PitA on 08/27/2016 6:00 AM
? What monetary damage could LesaB2 PROVE ?


The tort of defamation requires proof of damage to one's reputation. The tort of false light (invasion of privacy) does not. For false light, a showing of humiliation and embarrassment (= emotional harm), consistent with what a "reasonable person" would feel, is enough.


Never before heard of 'false light'. Live and learn.

? Are one's unpaid debts (whether erroneous or not) actually considered private ?

? Then how could public notice of a legal action be valid ?

IMO: 'false light' would be better applied to the publishing of certain photos ................

Precisely how much compensation would she receive, when the list was privately published to the membership only?

Perhaps the volunteer directors should file notice with the D&O insurer for the forthcoming $$$$$ claim.

or, simply wait for the mountain from the molehill to disintegrate.
BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PitA Never before heard of 'false light'. Live and learn. . .

from a 'false light' Arkansas decision upholding a jury's award of $1.5 M to a 96 year old headlined as giving up her newspaper vending because had become pregnant :

" . . . For example, at trial Mr. Silver testified that an article about a farmer becoming a millionaire by making whips for wife beaters was a true story while Mr. Levy, also a witness for the defendant, stated the story was false.

. . . a reasonable juror might conclude, after hearing the evidence and viewing the Sun issue in question, that Nellie Mitchell's experience could be likened to that of a person who had been dragged slowly through a pile of untreated sewage. . . . "
Peoples Bank & Trust Co. v. Globe Intern., 786 F. Supp. 791 (W.D. Ark. 1992) http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/786/791/1379588/
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Lesa,

Terrible that your name showed up on this list by mistake. But outrageous that there is such a list in the first place!

Your board should be recalled.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LindaS27 on 08/28/2016 5:44 AM
Lesa,

Terrible that your name showed up on this list by mistake. But outrageous that there is such a list in the first place!

Your board should be recalled.


I agree it was a terrible mistake but I support "public shaming" such as public lists of delinquent owners.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I know you support this JohnC but question to you is: What do you do when it's a mistake? Does your HOA have a retraction policy in place?

To me this is no big deal if I was on the list or not. It's not like it's going against my credit or has any effect in the real world. It's just a stupid list of people whom the HOA has to take actions against to collect. Which is what the HOA should be concentrating more on that publishing names. That does nothing but cause tongue wagging. Once the HOA actually does pursue an actual lien or foreclosure, that is when it is PUBLIC knowledge. Otherwise, a little inside HOA publication doesn't mean a hill of beans except for those inside the HOA. Then it's not much more than when the preacher at church announces your in the hospital for hemorrhoids removal... Are you going to sue the preacher?

Former HOA President
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
John - "Support public shaming" ?

To what end? We should be trying to make our communities better and more friendly towards one another.

It's nobody's business to know about your finances. Sure some people might be deadbeats, but others might have problems that prevent them from being on time. You don't know. And who are you to judge?

These lists make it harder for someone that has fallen on difficult times.

PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:

It's nobody's business to know about your finances.


Wrong.

A member has every right to know when another member has not paid their assessment and thereby becomes a 'member NOT in good standing' losing the ability to vote on association matters.

?Do mistakes happen?

Of course.

?Did the error rise to such a level as to cause you financial or other burden?

Since you are a member, why not PERSONALLY mail notice of payment to the other members?

or

Speak up at the next meeting, BOD or otherwise!?
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
In my former HOA, the HOA attorney was asked whether the HOA could publish a shaming list. The HOA attorney said no.

In Florida, HOA public shaming lists are forbidden. See http://www.floridacondohoalawblog.com/2009/06/articles/assessment-collection/posting-debtor-lists-to-collect-delinquent-condo-hoa-assessments/

It seems to me that HOA covenants tend to have exacting rules for collecting assessments owed, including imposing penalties based on the amount of time in arrears. A HOA member is obligated to pay her or his assessment. But she or he also has a right to rely on the Covenants. I think a shaming list goes further than what the Covenants say; is likely an intrusion on a delinquent member's peace (even if the latter argument has oxymoronic overtones); and so is a violation of the Covenants.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,060
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PitA on 08/28/2016 8:04 AM

It's nobody's business to know about your finances.


Wrong.

A member has every right to know when another member has not paid their assessment and thereby becomes a 'member NOT in good standing' losing the ability to vote on association matters.

I agree with that statement.

However, the right to know is not the same thing as wanting to know.
If a member wants to know, let them ask.

I am against publishing names of delinquent members.
We do publish the number of accounts that are delinquent and for how long. This seems to satisfy those who are interested.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
My question is what you going to do with that information about someone not paying? What powers do you have to make them pay up than wag of the tongue/evil eye? The concern should be what your board is doing to pursue the debt owed. Ironically, publishing the names is a form of pursuing unpaid debt by public shaming. However, the board should be making sure a lien or the proper foreclosure process is occurring per policy. Which again, your HOA should have a policy on what qualifies as "late." What time period exists?

Does your HOA put on a late fee to late dues? We added $20 on dues paid after the 15th. So why would we need to publish anyone's name if we make them pay monetarily? I find no benefit to the public shaming as that all it is. It's not going on anyone's credit report. It's just going on the tongues of the waggers...

Former HOA President
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PitA on 08/28/2016 8:04 AM

It's nobody's business to know about your finances.


Wrong.

A member has every right to know when another member has not paid their assessment and thereby becomes a 'member NOT in good standing' losing the ability to vote on association matters. div>

Again - to what end?

I think you can ask:
1) What is the total amount in A/R?
2) How many owners are behind?
3) What is the largest delinquency?
4) And any number of other things --

But you don't need to know names

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/28/2016 10:34 AM
My question is what you going to do with that information about someone not paying? What powers do you have to make them pay up than wag of the tongue/evil eye? The concern should be what your board is doing to pursue the debt owed. Ironically, publishing the names is a form of pursuing unpaid debt by public shaming. However, the board should be making sure a lien or the proper foreclosure process is occurring per policy. Which again, your HOA should have a policy on what qualifies as "late." What time period exists?

Does your HOA put on a late fee to late dues? We added $20 on dues paid after the 15th. So why would we need to publish anyone's name if we make them pay monetarily? I find no benefit to the public shaming as that all it is. It's not going on anyone's credit report. It's just going on the tongues of the waggers...

The $20.00 you added was based on what?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
It's just a flat $20 late fee. Which is written in our documents and allowed by law.

Former HOA President
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
ours is $15 (as per the Covenant) on EACH late month per month

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