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KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
I have a neighbor who had a dilemma. They need to replace their roof but they don't have the money to replace it with tile so they want to use shingle. When they contacted the association the association told them they had to repair the unit the way it was "originally constructed" per the restrictions.

Now the restrictions do not possess any architectural control committee or guidelines but the association has interpreted a section for this purpose. That section is titled "Destruction of Dwelling Unit."

The section they cite reads as follows: Any Dwelling Unit repaired or replaced in contemplation of this section shall be repaired or replaced in substantial compliance with architectural design and plans and specifications from which the Dwelling Unit was originally constructed

I added the emphasis.

There is another section titled "Maintenance and Repair."

It reads as follows:

"All Dwelling Units, structures, buildings out buildings, walls and driveways placed and maintained on The Property or any portion thereof, shall at all times be maintained in good condition and repair."

It is my understanding that the any kind of repair, like replacing a roof, would not be subject to this "originally constructed" phrase because that section limits that to what is "contemplated" in the section.

Thoughts?
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
Here are the first two provisions of the "Destruction of Dwelling" section:

A. In the event any Dwelling Unit shall be partially destroyed by fire, an act of God, or any other casualty to the extent that repairs can be made to the Dwelling Unit thereby restoring it to substantially the same condition prior to such loss, the owner shall, with due dilligence, after such loss take the necessary measures to restore the Dwelling Unit.

B. In the event any Dwelling Unit shall be destroyed beyond repair by fire, an act of God, or any other casualty, the owner shall, with due dilligence, either restore the Dwelling to substantially the same condition prior to such loss or clear the Lot of all rubble and debris and, thereafter, until such time as a Dwelling Unit is erected thereon, provide for the monthly maintenance of said Lot to ensure proper Landscaping, maintenance and upkeep.

I think this puts the third section into context when in stated the dwelling replaced in "contemplation" of this section, and that is clearly defined as a Dwelling destroyed by fire, act of God, or "casualty" - not repair...
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Kevin,

Do you have a section within the covenants that specify Association approval is needed for any exterior changes?
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
We have similar restrictions and take them to mean that any "replacement" restoration, etc. needs to be about the same as the original. So our off-white balcony tiles may only be replaced with same.

"Maintenance" is different than replacement or restoration.

I do not think "contemplation" matters.
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 08/25/2016 6:45 PM
Kevin,

Do you have a section within the covenants that specify Association approval is needed for any exterior changes?

No.

This is in my neighborhood and while I am going through the courts contesting the validity of their amendment which gave them jurisdiction to enforce restrictions, there is nothing that comes close to architectural control.

Some time back there was a push by a previous board to establish an architectural review board but that vote to amend the restrictions failed.

What I think is interesting is that people in the community have re-roofed with different types of tiles (not shingle though) and have had add-on that were not part of the original construction and/or have different roofing material. Like I have a screened in sun room with an aluminum roof in the back.
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 08/25/2016 9:06 PM
We have similar restrictions and take them to mean that any "replacement" restoration, etc. needs to be about the same as the original. So our off-white balcony tiles may only be replaced with same.

"Maintenance" is different than replacement or restoration.

I do not think "contemplation" matters.

The way I took the contemplation is because part A and B discuss if the property was destroyed it needs to be replaced or the lot needs to be maintained. I'd the property is replaced part c comes in and I took it to mean one couldn't do something like build a 3 story condo. One would have to build a dwelling similar to the original.
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
There may be something in the by-laws. I have to double check. While I understand these powers are not granted in the restrictions (unless you interpret the destruction amendment and jurisdiction together) the association and their previous attorney were fond of making up stuff. I believe the membership amendment they wrote that gave them jurisdiction had a line like if something isn't written in the covenant than to check the by-laws.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Kevin

We recently had a discussion at our Annual Meeting concerning "undefined" architectural standards. Our docs use the expression "community standards" several times. As an example. Each of our homes has a 6ft privacy fence around it's backyard. This means we have 112 identical fences as they were installed by the builder. Now, nowhere do our docs define the fence style, size, material, etc. but I maintain the fact that as the 112 fences are identical, this sets the "community standard" for our fences as the type they are thus any change is contrary to "community standards" and would not be allowed.

Not every architectural standard/detail can be defined/documented down to a gnat's a$$. but in many cases the "community standard" is obvious and doers not need a detailed explanation/description.

PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
Typical trash HOs.

Buy a house with gubmint backing and 3% down.

Discover the TRUE cost of ownership.

Screw (pun intended) your neighbors by 'cutting corners' and/or reducing building standards in place.

Lower property values for everyone.

Pay the attorneys what was 'saved' to duke it out in court.

Eventually lose home to foreclosure.

The American Attorney's Sweet Dream.

The (far too often) Typical American's Night-Mare. (which is a dream also)

Now, on to the topic at hand:

There is a contract in place.

Either:

enforce

or, if poorly written or ambiguous

mind your own business.
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
Kevin,

Assuming y'all are 'fee simple' stand alone houses:

The bylaws only apply to corporate management, they have NO property restrictions (or should not).
Even if they did, they would be unenforceable as any restrictions MUST be in the Covenants and Restrictions filed with the Plat itself.

however

the HOs in question can not afford a new roof equivalent to existing type

? what else will they not be able to afford ?
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 08/26/2016 1:18 PM
Kevin

We recently had a discussion at our Annual Meeting concerning "undefined" architectural standards. Our docs use the expression "community standards" several times. As an example. Each of our homes has a 6ft privacy fence around it's backyard. This means we have 112 identical fences as they were installed by the builder. Now, nowhere do our docs define the fence style, size, material, etc. but I maintain the fact that as the 112 fences are identical, this sets the "community standard" for our fences as the type they are thus any change is contrary to "community standards" and would not be allowed.

Not every architectural standard/detail can be defined/documented down to a gnat's a$$. but in many cases the "community standard" is obvious and doers not need a detailed explanation/description.


That is the thing. There is no arc restriction apart for one involving the destruction of the property. As for maintenance, there is one but nothing about requiring a set of standards.
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PitA on 08/26/2016 2:30 PM
Kevin,

Assuming y'all are 'fee simple' stand alone houses:

The bylaws only apply to corporate management, they have NO property restrictions (or should not).
Even if they did, they would be unenforceable as any restrictions MUST be in the Covenants and Restrictions filed with the Plat itself.

however

the HOs in question can not afford a new roof equivalent to existing type

? what else will they not be able to afford ?

These are stand alone houses.

As for the by-laws, the homeowner was concerned if there were any restrictions in them. When the association amended their restriction, they granted themselves authority to assess homes and placed details of the assessment in the by-laws. While the amendment stated $55, that amount changes at the whims of the board, so they could come back and say the assessment is $10,000 if they wanted to with no restrictions, because their amended covenant and restriction grants their by-laws authority. Apart from that, there is no architectural review mentioned.

The homeowner was looking to replace Spanish tile with shingle, the difference of price probably being around $20,000.
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
MOVE - YESTERDAY would be too late

Your association is CLUELESS

you will not take this advice

you will regret that
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PitA on 08/27/2016 5:44 AM
MOVE - YESTERDAY would be too late

Your association is CLUELESS

you will not take this advice

you will regret that

I own my house outright. That is kind of why I am fighting them. My lawyer believes this case is a "slam dunk," between their actions (or lack thereof), the issues surrounding their mandatory amendment (filing duplicate signatures, invalid signatures, etc. and forcing people into mandatory membership without unanimous consent), filing fraudulent liens and foreclosures, etc., and of course their revitalization, which also included invalid signatures of previous owners and not a single joinder or consent form notarized or verified that the signature was real! Rent is too damn high in Central Florida to move and I'm too damn stubborn! LOL.
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
'rent is too high'

ergo: 'attorney's fees are too low'

above logic is as good as yours
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PitA on 08/28/2016 5:20 AM
'rent is too high'

ergo: 'attorney's fees are too low'

above logic is as good as yours

Well, when considering I have no rent, any rent is too high. I also think of many of my neighbors, with my community being a former neighborhood for older folks, there are a lot of fixed income folks.
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
How do the 'fixed income' folks afford the house maintenance?

Roofing

Painting

HVAC

Driveway maintenance

Shrubbery

Lawncare

Insurance

Pest control

Appliance repair/replacement

etc.

IMO: renting is ALWAYS cheaper, albeit one must live in closer proximity to other people

Even with the landlord's profit margin shared roofs and other mechanicals are always cheaper and MORE EFFICIENT per square foot of habitable space.
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
add to the above the property taxes AND the association assessment

D'OH

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PitA on 08/28/2016 3:42 PM
How do the 'fixed income' folks afford the house maintenance?

Roofing

Painting

HVAC

Driveway maintenance

Shrubbery

Lawncare

Insurance

Pest control

Appliance repair/replacement

etc.

IMO: renting is ALWAYS cheaper, albeit one must live in closer proximity to other people

Even with the landlord's profit margin shared roofs and other mechanicals are always cheaper and MORE EFFICIENT per square foot of habitable space.

Here in Florida, properties can be homesteaded capping property tax increases so that the assessed values of one's residence stays low. Many of the long term residents survived the housing bubble because of that. In the couple years before I homesteaded my taxes jumped from roughly $700 to over $3000. It has since climbed back down and will now enjoy that same cap should it ever rise again.

As for assessments, part of the "mandatory" conversion amendment was that they kind of grandfather the older residents so they are not required to join or pay assessments. That mechanism was added for a couple reasons. 1, the attorneys responsible saw it as a way to avoid Florida statutes that governed true mandatory associations and since at the time many of the original residents lived in the neighborhood and had no plans to sell, the amendment would never affect them and so posed no risk to them.

As for all the other things mentioned, the properties are not that large, with the biggest home being around 1500 sq. ft. and the lawn not much larger. If homeowners choose to be members, they get basic lawn care. Many of the younger residents actually help out the older ones (I kept out an eye on my neighbors property for years and would help do yard work or clean out gutters). There are also several neighborhood "handymen" who work cheap. We have also set up barter groups and Facebook groups that residents utilize to help seek out things like appliances or necessities.

Plus many of our older residents are retired living off pensions and savings from careers they held up north (many from the Tri-State area).

The biggest cost that can arise is roof repair, AC, or plumbing. Many of the houses have been re-piped, roofs repaired or replaced during the 2005 hurricanes, or had their AC done in the last several years. And if a roof hadn't been replaced, many had it sealed (including me) which performs surprisingly well and is only a fraction of the cost.
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
best of luck

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