Fines

Started by LindaK5 • 14 replies • 1671 views

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LindaK5 (California)
Posts: 242

Posted:

Doing some research in regardings to fines in hopes of amending our current fine policy. Right now, the fine is $25 and that amount can be doubled, etc. Offenders are given a 30 day notice to correct violation - if correction is completed, no fine (within 30 day period). In the case of a health or safety situation, an immediate fine can be assessed (same amount).

My prior post regarding service/therapy dogs and Air BnB use - someone said a $25 fine wasn't substantial enough, so perhaps we can increase that (putting out to homeowners for 30 day review). Someone also said the 30 day notice needed to be changed as well. I thought you HAD to give 30 days notice for a violation (with exception of health/safety)?

My question is ... what is your fine policy? Also, how do you enforce? According to Davis-Stirling, I see that an offense needs to be witnessed by an employee of the Association or Board member, or videotaped/camera. Am I reading this correctly?

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Linda

To amend any rules, whether it being the Rules and Regulations, Collection Policy, Fine Policy, Hearing Policy, etc, requires a 30 day comment period to homeowners prior to the Board actually voting on the proposed changed. If the Board approves such change(s) notice of change must be given within 15 days to each owner.

If you are going to fine someone, you must call them to hearing, giving them at least 10 days notice and the Board's decision must be given at least 15 after decision is reached, (unless shorter time is required per governing docs).

A violation can be reported by another homeowner, the management company, the Board. If the Board takes the word of the homeowner who reported the violation, then the offending owner has a right to know their accuser. If the Board or PM steps up, the the reporting homeowner is then not involved.

Fines, as well as the Rules MUST be "fair and reasonable" If going after rentals less than your governing document allow, I would conduct an attorney to cover your butt. Some think $1000 daily fines are a reasonable deterrent.

The length of time to remedy a violation would be in your Rules, but is not a statue.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Linda

To overly simplify, our fines start at $25 per offense and double. Also if a repeat offense (say 6 months later) the fine still doubles. Paying a fine in our association does not reset to counter to zero.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

We never used fines in our HOA. Instead we had stronger powers. Our HOA could fix the violation and charge the owner the expense. If they did not pay, then we could lien for the amount. Mind you we sent violation letters to the owners first with referenced to the violation out of the rules. If they did not comply, then we inform them we would do the repairs/correction at OUR expense of which they must compensate us for. It's either at your cost or ours... We aren't necessarily lowest bidder people... Of course our HOA was set up so that we owned the property around the homes so trespassing issues were not an issue as others HOA's may be.

If your going to fine, make sure to have a fining schedule in place and everyone knows it. Plus make sure it fits the state laws not just HOA's.

Keep in mind fines can not be the basis for liens in most states. Some creative accounting can be applied to make it so. However, as a general rule of thumb fines can not be used to lien or foreclose on a member. That is why we never used a fining system. One does not have to pay and walk away. A lien not so much...

Former HOA President

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Linda, please visit davis-stirling.com, Main Index, Fines. And also rule changes.

I am one who claimed that $25 is not a deterrent and what you want is to deter (not punish).

We fine $50 for most violations, but violators first get a warning letter with a chance to cure. In our high rise, most violations are noise nuisances and Liquid or solid materials off of balconies onto those of the ones below. In the latter case, the Owner also must pay for clean up of the messes below. All may be doubled if the same violation is repeated in 6 months.

These two have a $100 fine, and of course, are expected to be cured immediately. We have another immediate call to hearing & $100 fine for dogs off leash or depositing anything in our common areas.

So maybe in your case, Linda, one-size fine will not fit all. But I think $50 should be your minimum. Time to remedy is not defined by statute. We have few of this types violations but have given 15 to 30 days depending on the issue. Right now, for instance, there's a satellite dish installed on a common area roof. We gave him 30 days as e he doesn't love there full time and needed to arrange for the supplier to come out & change it.

LindaK5 (California)
Posts: 242

Posted:

Kerry - I'm ALWAYS reading Davis-Stirling. Sometimes I think I can recite much of it by memory.

You're absolutely right - $25 for certain things is NOT a deterrent.

The Board had an Executive Session and did some proposed revisions to the fine policy taking much of what was provided to me on this website and with additional Davis-Stirling research. Putting it out to homeowners for the 30 days review and we will vote in October which is our next meeting.

We have two different fine categories - one is for Architectural purposes and the other is "General" (common area related). Of course, each has a health and safety clause which allows us immediate fining without any sort of notice, just a letter.

Things like decor on the exterior siding, pots and such on balcony railings - that sort of thing is a $25 fine for first occurrence and they get 30 days.

On the other hand, not picking up dog feces, transient occupancy, etc. has a range and it allows the Board to decide on what to implement as far as a fine goes.

Will be interesting to see the homeowner response on this one, as the proposed fines are quite a bit more than the prior $25 for everything ....... even though this will be explained, I'm sure there will be a fairly large group of people thinking that if they don't pick up a pile of dog poop they will be fined $500.

Thanks again for all of your help.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Linda wrote: "The Board had an Executive Session and did some proposed revisions to the fine policy...." Linda, why was this done in Ex. Sess.? I can't think of any justification in CA .

Anyway, sounds like you're on the right track, though I still think $25 isn't a deterrent. You'd write a letter giving them 30 days to cure and if they don't you fine just $25 bucks?

LindaK5 (California)
Posts: 242

Posted:

We had 3 other financial issues to discuss regarding homeowners.

$25 is for very minor violations. We have categorized violations and fines according to severity.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LindaK5 on 08/25/2016 9:45 PM
We had 3 other financial issues to discuss regarding homeowners.

$25 is for very minor violations. We have categorized violations and fines according to severity.

Seems way to complicated for my taste. If you issue a warning first and allow the violation to be corrected in my view no need to now have a scale of severity in place. Just makes more complications. You will need a book to detail what amount for what offense. And believe some violations would be covered in the book.

We issue a $100 fine after a warning has been sent to the owner via mail. They are given a period to correct or cease the behavior. Another violation for the same offense doubles the fine to $200. The third offense for the same violation gets you $300 and thereafter $300 for each additional violation.

In our case the courts frown upon excessively high fine amounts because they don't believe any behavior warrants such amounts. I disagree, but the courts rule.

$25 fines will not be taken seriously nor will take curb the behavior you would wish to control. But let us know how this works for you.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Agree still that $25 is insufficient.

Look, linda, your board may not discuss things like rule changes in ex. sess. You needed two meetings, one ES for the delinquencies and a separate one for the rules/fines discussions. The latter needed the four days posted notice of the agenda posted.

I urge you to follow the Open Meeting Act in CA!

LindaK5 (California)
Posts: 242

Posted:

Kerry - we are following the Open Meeting Act.

The Executive Session was to deal with financial issues. We announce and post agendas (w/o names of course), well in advance of all meetings.

We happened to discuss policy changes to bring up at the next Board meeting in October. Maybe I worded what I said incorrectly. We will be presenting proposed policy changes at the next Board meeting for discussion, then sending out for 30 day review to homeowners, then subsequently voting on their approval at the next Board meeting which is in December.

As far as the "complicated" fines .... I don't see that at all. It's pretty general. 1st Violation - warning or fine up to $200; 2nd violation (same offense) $50-$200, 3rd violation (same offense) $100-$300; additional violations (same offense) up to $400. Safety violations warning or fine up to $500. Continuing violation - daily fines until cured. Everyone gets a warning letter, even a health/safety violation. Health/safety violations get an automatic fine. The letter states they will be fined for the violation and they have 30 days to cure (unless health/safety violation). If it's cured within 30 days, no fine. If not, the Board meets to levy fine. I understand this to be the correct way to deal with this issue per Davis-Stirling. If this is incorrect, please correct me!

Regarding the $25 fine - as I said in my prior post - this is for a very, very nominal violation, like not having a saucer under your pot on the deck (we have had issues with composite decks). 95% of the community are elderly (mostly widows) on fixed income. We've never had to follow through with a fine. Warning letters suffice.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LindaK5 on 08/26/2016 10:50 AM
Kerry - we are following the Open Meeting Act.

The Executive Session was to deal with financial issues. We announce and post agendas (w/o names of course), well in advance of all meetings.

We happened to discuss policy changes to bring up at the next Board meeting in October. Maybe I worded what I said incorrectly. We will be presenting proposed policy changes at the next Board meeting for discussion, then sending out for 30 day review to homeowners, then subsequently voting on their approval at the next Board meeting which is in December.

As far as the "complicated" fines .... I don't see that at all. It's pretty general. 1st Violation - warning or fine up to $200; 2nd violation (same offense) $50-$200, 3rd violation (same offense) $100-$300; additional violations (same offense) up to $400. Safety violations warning or fine up to $500. Continuing violation - daily fines until cured. Everyone gets a warning letter, even a health/safety violation. Health/safety violations get an automatic fine. The letter states they will be fined for the violation and they have 30 days to cure (unless health/safety violation). If it's cured within 30 days, no fine. If not, the Board meets to levy fine. I understand this to be the correct way to deal with this issue per Davis-Stirling. If this is incorrect, please correct me!

Regarding the $25 fine - as I said in my prior post - this is for a very, very nominal violation, like not having a saucer under your pot on the deck (we have had issues with composite decks). 95% of the community are elderly (mostly widows) on fixed income. We've never had to follow through with a fine. Warning letters suffice.

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Sounds complicated to me. And the record keeping too.

I just have to wonder why a property with 95% elderly widows would require such a detailed set of fines and policy. Last year we issued 18 fines for the entire yearand our population runs through every age group.

But as you have everything figured out please let us know sometime in the future how this new policy works out.

LindaK5 (California)
Posts: 242

Posted:

Basically, this is for uses with tenants. 99percent e of our problems are teants.

LindaK5 (California)
Posts: 242

Posted:

If anyone has a fine policy and process that's easier, please share!

LindaK5 (California)
Posts: 242

Posted:

Sorry about typos ... kindle is acting weird.

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