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LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
We have an out of control board and MC and after giving them several chances to post HOA records, correct the financials and the related funds and so many more violations, a group of homeowners are completely fed up!

I am now gathering all the statute and document #s that are being violated and then will file a complaint with DORA/RE division who supposedly investigates MCs and their agents - which could put their CAM licenses at risk.

Another thing I want to present to the state is my analysis of a reserve account that shows when and how $335K has been misappropriated.

I would like some input (comments, suggestions, clarifications, questions, etc.) from this site on my spread sheets.

If you will respond with your email, I will reply with the attachment (.xls format)

Thanks in advance,
Linda
........................................................................................................................

P.S. If you need additional information, there is a lot of detail in other posts:

Subject: Missing Reserve Funds - Atrocious Accounting - Reserve Study Errors - Denial of Records
http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/200896/Default.aspx

Budget Requirements
http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/216885/Default.aspx
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
You do realize your a member of your HOA right? Which means that unfortunately your "guilty" along with everyone else. So file a complaint you want but the results will be at your door. The MC is a HIRED sub-contractor to the board. If there is an issue with the MC, then the board should fire them or report it. The board should not be tied to the MC other than a contract that says what the MC is to do.

It's like my advice: Sue your HOA, your suing yourself and your neighbors. Report such abuse and issues to enforce punishment isn't doing you or your neighbors a favor. What if the punishment is to issue excessive fines to the HOA? Who do you think is responsible then? A HOA is ONLY funded by it' members FOR it's members... Which you are a member...

I find it's best to work from the inside than the outside. That is why I got elected to my board and became President. My HOA was a mess and ran by a conman. My motto is if you want something done right, do it yourself. In a HOA that means either becoming a board member or getting enough votes to kick the existing ones out.

Former HOA President
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Melissa, but I wonder if there is some embezzling going on. I have seen it before. If this is in place, then chances are good the management company and board are in cahoots to keep the current board members using unlawful means. I am grateful Linda has this alternative resource, DORA/RE division, to use.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I'm not qualified to review your spreadsheets. My strength does seem be also dealing with "clusters" that have different assessments than one another both in the operation budget and in reserves.

But I think, Linda, that the word you might find more accurate is "misallocation" rather than misappropriation.

good luck. I'd love to see the results here.
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/07/2016 2:35 PM
You do realize your a member of your HOA right? Which means that unfortunately your "guilty" along with everyone else. So file a complaint you want but the results will be at your door. The MC is a HIRED sub-contractor to the board. If there is an issue with the MC, then the board should fire them or report it. The board should not be tied to the MC other than a contract that says what the MC is to do.

It's like my advice: Sue your HOA, your suing yourself and your neighbors. Report such abuse and issues to enforce punishment isn't doing you or your neighbors a favor. What if the punishment is to issue excessive fines to the HOA? Who do you think is responsible then? A HOA is ONLY funded by it' members FOR it's members... Which you are a member...

I find it's best to work from the inside than the outside. That is why I got elected to my board and became President. My HOA was a mess and ran by a conman. My motto is if you want something done right, do it yourself. In a HOA that means either becoming a board member or getting enough votes to kick the existing ones out.

Melissa, I'm guilty of nothing!!
The board doesn't know what's in our governing documents nor the state statutes - and the management agent is lax in informing them. They either lie to cover up or completely ignore us. You can kick out the existing board, but you're still stuck with the incompetent MC. Well, now Colorado has a fairly new law that states property managers risk loss of license for knowingly violating or knowingly directing others to violate state law.

The MC and their agents are required to know the state statutes in order to get their CAM licenses. It has nothing to do with fining the HOA.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I am saying look at the RESULTS and NOT the Cause! There are other ways of handling this situation than running off to an outside source.

My biggest concern is: Was this project they paid for with the controllers damaging to the HOA besides how it was funded? Was there absolutely no benefit? Was it something that never needed done?

Here's the deal. This could be a LEARNING OPORTUNITY for everyone involved instead of a punitive one. I would go to the board meetings or write a letter to the board quoting the exact references in your CC&R's that they violated. Let them know the relationship they are to have with the MC. The MC does NOT run the HOA. The HOA tells the MC what to do per their contract. I would also point out that such decisions require a membership vote versus a HOA board vote.

Why are we fighting this decision if the decision overall did not do any real significant damage than procedural? I say get on the board or educate the board. Bring in the rules and review. It may just be that no one ever read them. The MC does NOT have to follow them as they are NOT a member of the HOA. They have their own rules/laws to follow.

The 3 bid system is just a good business practice. It's NOT a law or rule. It could be that they did not get another bid because the original company had offered the controllers as an "upgrade" or "option" they could later install. Which means they would not be getting a competing bid if this was part of an option of the original contractor.

Don't go jumping down a rabbit hole you don't know how to dig yourself and neighbors out of. Look at the end results.You complain now what? The board doesn't get fired does it? The MC doesn't quit? Are you ready to submit bids for new board members or a new MC? Again, cart before the horse. Instead you and your neighbors can already take this step. Remove the board and fire the MC. It's all in your hands already instead of putting it into someone elses.

Former HOA President
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 08/07/2016 2:57 PM
Melissa, but I wonder if there is some embezzling going on. I have seen it before. If this is in place, then chances are good the management company and board are in cahoots to keep the current board members using unlawful means. I am grateful Linda has this alternative resource, DORA/RE division, to use.

Augustin, You are correct that embezzlement happens - a lot in HOAs because there is no oversight, But I don't think that's the case here (or if so, it's minor). The missing funds have happened with all four MCs we've had for varying reasons.

%244K missing due to MC bookkeeper being too lazy and/or incompetent to allocate the expenses correctly.

Deposits of $92K not made for different reasons:
$60K - not deposited because there was no bank account set up as required by the declarations.
$18K - one incident of miscalculating how much should be deposited.
$14K - several incidents of different errors. For example, one MC kept insisting to the board that deposits were mad and all was up-to-date but that was not the case. I think she was looking ONLY at the income statement that did show the accruals were made so she thought everything was okay. But the other step to actually transfer the money to the proper bank account was not done.

Just improper accounting all around!
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 08/07/2016 6:24 PM
I'm not qualified to review your spreadsheets. My strength does seem be also dealing with "clusters" that have different assessments than one another both in the operation budget and in reserves.

But I think, Linda, that the word you might find more accurate is "misallocation" rather than misappropriation.

good luck. I'd love to see the results here.

Kerry,

If that is your strength, it is a good one! Especially since you're dealing with more than one operating budget. We have two different reserves and only one operating account (it's pretty simple, really) but the MCs still can't get the accounting correct.
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Kerry,

Forgot to mention your suggestion of using misallocation instead of misappropriation. I'm not sure that applies. Could you clarify?
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/08/2016 6:37 AM
I am saying look at the RESULTS and NOT the Cause! There are other ways of handling this situation than running off to an outside source.

My biggest concern is: Was this project they paid for with the controllers damaging to the HOA besides how it was funded? Was there absolutely no benefit? Was it something that never needed done?

Here's the deal. This could be a LEARNING OPORTUNITY for everyone involved instead of a punitive one. I would go to the board meetings or write a letter to the board quoting the exact references in your CC&R's that they violated. Let them know the relationship they are to have with the MC. The MC does NOT run the HOA. The HOA tells the MC what to do per their contract. I would also point out that such decisions require a membership vote versus a HOA board vote.

Why are we fighting this decision if the decision overall did not do any real significant damage than procedural? I say get on the board or educate the board. Bring in the rules and review. It may just be that no one ever read them. The MC does NOT have to follow them as they are NOT a member of the HOA. They have their own rules/laws to follow.

The 3 bid system is just a good business practice. It's NOT a law or rule. It could be that they did not get another bid because the original company had offered the controllers as an "upgrade" or "option" they could later install. Which means they would not be getting a competing bid if this was part of an option of the original contractor.

Don't go jumping down a rabbit hole you don't know how to dig yourself and neighbors out of. Look at the end results.You complain now what? The board doesn't get fired does it? The MC doesn't quit? Are you ready to submit bids for new board members or a new MC? Again, cart before the horse. Instead you and your neighbors can already take this step. Remove the board and fire the MC. It's all in your hands already instead of putting it into someone elses.

Melissa,
The "controllers" is not the main issue. It is just the final straw!!

If you had really read my original post, you would have noted there is $335K missing from one of the reserve accounts. And the board is dwindling the money down to pay for it's special agendas. Maybe the controllers was a good idea - maybe not, but they violated our governing documents in spending the money for a capital improvement without member approval. And that money they spent is RESTRICTED and should be in the proper account where it can ONLY be spent on "private streets".

And EVERYTHING has already been brought to the board and MC attention (at meetings and in emails)to no avail.

The MC DOES have to follow our governing documents as well as state laws but they do not- even when told they are in violation.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
To me, misappropriation sound like illegal intent, while misallocation sounds like errors. I feel certain that here the mistakes were unintentional.

Since your cluster is billed less for water, it would be cleaner if they has a separate operations budget. I'd also think the cluster would have lower assessments for landscaping since their lots are quite small.

You'd have two reserves account, which apparently you do, and two operating budgets accounts, which I thought you said you had in your other thread. What do your docs say on this matter?

If unclear, you may have to go back to your original condo plan the developer filed with your state that its Dept. of Real Estate probably required before your HOA even was built. This is what I had to do to learn certain things that our docs were silent about.

Btw, there are specialists who analyze budgets to make sure allocations are correct. His certification is called CCIM. We hired one on the advice of our HOA attorney. We'd already asked our attorney certain allocation questions and based on our CC&Rs and DRE (then-Dept. of R.E.) developer's budget, he could answer some but not all. He stated that of the about 1,000 CC&Rs he'd examined over time only 10 were as screwy, complicated and messed up as ours.

There also specialists called forensics reserves analysts.

LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Kerry,

I think you are correct in the definitions. And I think that in the beginning the errors were probably unintentional - but not so much accidental as due to incompetence; however, these errors have now been brought to their attention and they refuse to do anything about it stating "we're not going back in time" and "we're not going to re-invent the wheel." These quotes were from the Nov, board meeting - but still, the errors continue. They even put out F/S in May that did not balance.
........................................................................................................................
Just to clarify: a few years ago, Clusters homes were charged more in dues to cover their domestic water (operating budget) and to also cover the "private streets" (reserve budget). But in 2006, individual water meters were installed at each cluster home and from then on, they paid their own water/sewer bills. So there was no longer a need for that operating budget.

The way the cluster homes are set up is probably different than what you are thinking. Each owner is responsible for their own landscaping inside their fences - usually the back yard, sometimes the side too. However, our homes butt up to the common greenbelt that is not our property so the landscaping is paid through the HOA equally by all the homes.

But a big change that the board wants to make is to amend our declaration letting the board determine what is a cluster lot common expense. But they don't list those - I guess it will just be up to whatever board is in place at whatever time. And worse, they want to separate the two different types of cluster homes - attached garages and detached garages. Although there doesn't seem to be a difference that would require separate levels for dues.

So if the amendment passes, there would be three operating budgets and three reserve accounts. What a disaster!!!
It would probably be as complicated as your accounts. A lot of homeowners hope to stop that from passing.

Btw, how many different accounts does your HOA have? And what makes up the differences in the budgets?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I am sorry if I am coming across "mean" or not supportive. However, I am also going to point out reality and not one wants to hear all the time. I've got to call things as I see them. Have to say that you are not exactly doing your HOA any favors here. I'm reading between the lines here and quite frankly have to say I am not falling for all the voodoo here.

I am not seeing where you are a board member or attempting to be one. Not seeing you as part of the majority of your fellow members. If you were, then many more would be on your bandwagon wagging their tongues at the board/MC. What gets me the most is your NOT finding solutions to your situation. Have you presented your "findings/concerns" in a manner of which you offer solutions? People listen more to how to fix issues than keep looping what they are.

I can see why your MC responded to you as they did. No, they are NOT going to go back nor "reinvent the wheel" because of you. Not going to happen. Sorry going to put it bluntly. Why? Because your NOT approaching this issue in the right way. Your just a squeaky wheel in the cog of operations.

It never pays to play "hero or victim" in a HOA. What does work and pays off? Becoming a board member or getting a majority of people involved. Going to "authorities" is just putting the solution into someone else's hands. It takes the power away from everyone in your HOA including yourself. I am not one for living by the whim of complete strangers with the power to make me pay lots of money.

Yeah has your HOA or MC probably done something wrong? Probably. Are they going to keep doing it? Maybe. What fixes it? Changing the board, hiring a new MC, doing an audit, gathering interest and a majority voters to join the cause. Otherwise, your just getting yourself wrapped up into drama that you don't need and no one asked for.

Former HOA President
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/08/2016 9:59 AM
I can see why your MC responded to you as they did. No, they are NOT going to go back nor "reinvent the wheel" because of you. Not going to happen. Sorry going to put it bluntly. Why? Because your NOT approaching this issue in the right way. Your just a squeaky wheel in the cog of operations.

It never pays to play "hero or victim" in a HOA. What does work and pays off? Becoming a board member or getting a majority of people involved. Going to "authorities" is just putting the solution into someone else's hands. It takes the power away from everyone in your HOA including yourself. I am not one for living by the whim of complete strangers with the power to make me pay lots of money.

Not sure what you mean by playing hero or victim. In my former two HOAs, change started with constructive, hard, relentless criticism by members of board actions, followed by the complainants campaigning about abuses and running for the board. They were not "playing" anything. They were objecting to how the grounds were not being maintained, affecting everyone's property values.

Surely the late great Margaret Mead has been quoted here before: "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." Was Margaret wrong?

I think Linda has begun appropriately setting the stage for a change in board membership.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Linda wrote: "But a big change that the board wants to make is to amend our declaration letting the board determine what is a cluster lot common expense. But they don't list those - I guess it will just be up to whatever board is in place at whatever time. And worse, they want to separate the two different types of cluster homes - attached garages and detached garages. Although there doesn't seem to be a difference that would require separate levels for dues."

You need to make sure the Board gets an HOA attorney's advice on this. And how it should be worded to protect the cluster Owners and the others too.

Can you tell me how your CC&Rs are worded now re: the difference between cluster homes/lots and the rest of your HOA?

Our "General" op. budget includes our 200+ condos. For these purposes our "cluster" is 80% of the total. It receives services that the others don't and are charged extra for them. For instance, all residences pay for custodial, but the cluster pays a 31% surcharge for its extra items that need to be cleaned/maintained. It's the same things for other O.B items like electricity and the elevator contract.

Since many of these things are reserve items, the cluster has its own reserves account. along with paying into reserves to the general account, the cluster pays extra into reserves for all times that it uses exclusively.

We also have a commercial Owner who owns 5% of the premises. He contributes 5% to the general OB for everything he uses or may use, e.g., the MC contract. He also contributes 5% to all reserves times that he does or amy use, e.g., fire life safety stuff; HVAC systems, etc. He has his own reserves account to repair replace components that only he uses.

I think it's more accurate for me to say there are three reserves accounts. there's only one O.B. but the contributions to it come form three entities.
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Kerry,

Yes, that would be prudent. However, it is an HOA attorney that came up with this BS.

This is a generic declaration that the attorneys use, making some changes that the board wants. The first draft was mailed to homeowners last year for feedback. A lot of upset homeowners. The attorneys have put EVERYTHING into the proposed declaration making a mess of the whole thing. Due to changing MC last year, the board put this on hold. They are now renewing that issue and we should be getting the new draft soon.
.......................................................................................................................
CC&R only differences:
"Uniform Rate of Assessments" ... The difference between the higher and lower uniform rates will be related to the cost of private street repairs servicing the higher assessed lots."
"Separate Bank Accounts" ... The treasurer will establish a bank account separate from the general account to be used exclusively for monies collected for the payment of Association owned private street maintenance and no other purpose."
........................................................................................................................
Your budgets and financials are quite complex. Ours are pretty simple but the MC (and 3 before them) screws the accounting up all the time. How does your MC handle all the complexities?

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