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ChristopherF1 (Missouri)
Posts: 3
Posted:
Hello all,

Our neighborhood is starting too look into putting a pool in. Its actually a longer story then that but I will save ya'll the trouble of reading all of it. My basic question is what is everyones average yearly pool costs? Our community when finished will be around 500 houses. Are they even worth the costs involved?

Sorry if this is a repeat question, the search function is not working for me and I did not see a pool topic discussed in the past 3 months.

Thanks for the help!
StephanieR4 (California)
Posts: 2
Posted:
Hi there!

Depending on your area, and size of pool. Dues can range, I suggest getting bids on the following components.

- Maintenance and Cleaning of pool
- Gate surrounding the pool as well as Pool keys or FOBs so it is only accessed by homeowners.

- I would say dues for pool range from $50-$150 on top of HOA dues depending on maintenance and up keep and how your homeowners take care of it.

Start having the HOA Management company look at your budget and see how much you can expect from your homeowners.
- Fundraisers are also wonderful method for raising money (: Bring everyone in neighborhood together bring family and friends have a fun raffle or community event to gather donations to elevate costs.
JoyceR2 (Virginia)
Posts: 156
Posted:
What liability/insurance cost are associated with community pools?
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
It would be impossible to estimate the yearly cost of operating a new pool on your property. Such factors as size, type of pool, lifeguard requirements,
facility type, maintenance, health department requirements and fees, chemicals, usage, electrical costs, insurance costs, furniture, fencing, access controls, water testing and monitoring, all contribute to the final cost.

When you say the community is looking into this just who is the driving force behind this effort? My question is do they have any idea of the initial cost to install plus the annual cost to operate?

After more than 30 years of operating our pool we removed it. Low usage, high operating costs, high maintenance costs, combined made it a poor financial
decision going forward. In our area similar to yours, we had just over a 12 week season hardly worth the cost in our view.

It would be the responsible thing to do to have a long term analysis as to costs put together and then hopefully present this to an informed and thoughtful group of homeowners left to make the decision to move forward.

When provided with those numbers our owners voted more than 3-1 to close our pool. In my mind after serving 29 years on our board one of the most beneficial decisions that was made for our community.

Everyone wants a pool when asked. The real question is does the majority of owners wish to pay the costs? That bill can ce quite hefty.
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
Swimming Pool:

A hole in the ground into which one pours money.

Everyone wants a pool when asked. The real question is does the majority of owners wish to pay the costs? That bill can be quite hefty.


My HOA's operational cost is about $20,000 per year.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Understand adding a pool does NOT increase home values. It does add to the ATTRACTIVENESS to the property. Thus more people will be more or less ATTRACTIVE to buying into a property that has a pool. Make sure to take a quick poll to see how many people are truly into wanting a pool.

Our average costs differed every few years due to various maintenance issues. Plus water/utility costs factor in. Our city raised water prices recently. There many many variables. The initial cost of installing a pool pales in comparison in the maintenance of one long term. Hence why many developers install them and walk away.

You may want to make a chat with a local pool company and review your needs/wants with them. They most likely can be hired out to handle your pool needs. We had a pool care person we paid about $100 a week in the summer. Their job was to add chemicals to the pool and monitor it for health department rules. We had to buy the chemicals/supplies. Salt based pools are a bit cheaper to run they say once established. Less chemical expenses.

Take multiple bids from pool suppliers in your area. Avoid signing contracts for longer than a 1 year with them. Keep doing what your doing in asking others about their expenses and experiences. Make sure to keep it perspective on the reason why your neighborhood wants a pool.

It's important to establish how and how much you will charge for this project. Since you will have a minority against the idea, they won't be handing over their money readily. Special assessment will be needed. Otherwise, adopting a "pay as you go" option may need to be evaluated. How will one know the visitors to the pool qualify to be there or were ones who did not pay?

I am on the fence about pools. Ours was a true catch 22 situation. I enjoyed our pool very much. However, taking care of it was what nightmares are all about...

Former HOA President
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
One approach is to google for {HOA annual budget pool} and check the many docs that come up. To get you in the ballpark:

-- $33k per year circa 2015 (similar for 2014) for this Colorado HOA: http://www.weatherstonecolorado.org/index_htm_files/WS_Financials_2015-01.pdf

-- $42k in 2015 for this Tucson, Arizona HOA (probably open year round) http://www.civano1.com/pages/documents/2015FinalAPPROVEDBudgetat71.pdf

-- $65k in 2014 for this North Carolina HOA (open year round?): http://www.birkdalehoa.com/picture/CopyofBirkdaleHOA2014Budget.pdf

-- $26k circa 2014 for this Ohio HOA: http://www.wedgewoodhoa.org/annual-budget/

-- $28k or so circa 2015 for this Florida HOA: http://www.ghohomes.com/images/DocLibrary/Riverwind%202015%20HOA%20Budget.pdf

If I were you, I would study some twenty budgets and look at the line items to see what was relevant to the pool and see why there is a wide variation. Consider emailing the HOAs to find out how many months their pools are open.

This likey does not take into account any re-surfacing that might be required every so often. Here's a pretty tragic and costly situation with one HOA pool: http://miramonte.msihoa.co/view/miramonte-ranch-pool-project-faqs.aspx
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Augustin's point about reserves for pools is important, I think.

Not only resurfacing--ours lasts 8 years per our reserves analyst--but coping around the pool, the ladders into the pool, the decking around the pool, poolside furniture, drain grates around the pool; pumps & motors, heater...
ChristopherF1 (Missouri)
Posts: 3
Posted:
Thanks all for the responses! I guess I will give some background then into why I have asked this question. Sorry if it is a little bit too long!

The neighborhood I recently moved into has been around for about 7 - 8 years. When it started there was a completely different builder at the time and in their contract for the area, they were required to build an amenity before the 100th house was sold or our city (Wentzville, MO) would not allow them to build anymore until they build the amenity. At the time the builder had a bid for $300K for the pool This contract i believe is binding to the bank that owns all of the plots as well. Well the original builder put it into the contract that they would build a pool and playground area. Well a few years into building house that builder went bankrupt and stopped building. This caused the neighborhood to start to become very unattractive since there was no longer upkeep or house to be sold. A year or so later a different builder, Payne (current builder), came in and decided to try and sell a few house to see if it would work out. Well they did and decided to start building more houses and clean up the neighborhood some. Few years later, they are starting to approach this 100 house mark. The builder was selling house stating that there was going to be a pool put in soon and some families decided to move here based on that. Well, since Payne was getting close to the 100 house mark they got a new and updated quote on the pool. The pool will now cost 800K to build and Payne was not ready for that. Due to this, Payne and the Bank decided to pursue placing a park area instead since it would be cheaper to do. However, these decisions were made without informing the residents about it and continued to sell the aspect of a pool to potential buyers. One of the residents caught onto this and one thing lead to another and there was a meeting between the residents, banker, builder and the city. During that meeting it was brought to light that many residents had not been paying their HOA dues to the bank (Bank currently is the HOA). The builder and banker stated they did not believe we would be able to sustain a pool and did not have the money for putting a pool in currently which is why they were talking about doing a park area. However there are some residents that do not believe this and still want the pool. The big problem is, this would cause the builder to most likely leave and this builder is one of the better builders in the area.

Now that these issues were brought to light, I and a few residents are trying to do research to see if a pool is reasonable and what all of the costs are associated with it. Some of the residents do not really understand all the costs that come with a pool and thus is why I am asking other HOAs what they annually pay for theirs. I am working on putting all this information together to share with everyone else so that we hopefully make a well informed decision. However, based on the responses i have received on this forum there are more than just costs to consider. Any advise on the Pool subject is very helpful! Most of us are new to this and hearing other HOAs experiences with pools is very helpful.

Again, sorry for the long post. I really appreciate all the responses I have received!
ChristopherF1 (Missouri)
Posts: 3
Posted:
I tried to google annual Community/HOA pool fees but did not find much (however I came across this site which was a plus). Did not think of overall budgets and thank you for the suggestion and links to these budgets!
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
It looks like you see that swimming pools work like a sales tool to entice buyers to buy. Keep that in mind when putting this in perspective. The amenity is more of a luxury item for your HOA. Which by all appearances is still developer controlled. A developer controlled HOA works a bit differently than an member/owner owned HOA. Which eventually your HOA will become. However, it seems some are trying to put the cart before the horse in this situation. Demanding of the pool installation at this stage is pushing that cart...

Typically this is what happens in the forming of a typical HOA. Example: A developer purchases 101 acres of land. They then divide that land into 100 acres for homes and 1 acre for amenities. (clubhouse, pool, tennis court, etc). The developer makes their money off the sale of these 1 acre lots. The builder then builds on these lots. The builder/developer can be separate or the same. The Developer/Builder forms an HOA as a sales tool to attract potential buyers. They agree to put in certain amenities they feel best that will attract buyers.

A pool or other amenity is basically the price of doing business to create business. However, it's no guarantee they can afford to put in the amenity even if promised. Their choice is to possibly raise dues or have a special assessment of their current membership to pay for it. A HOA is ONLY funded by it's members FOR its's members. Considering there are those not paying their dues in the HOA and the expense of pursuing collections, the developer may not be able to afford the pool.

Most developers/builders will eventually install the amenity and walk away. They turn over the HOA to the membership. In your case, your HOA faces the more expensive part of owning the pool versus installation. The long term maintenance of having a pool or any amenity is the real expense of the item. 20 years from now your HOA will most likely have spent more on the pool than the developer ever paid for it.

Now keep in mind many of us here do have pools and are NOT anti-pool. We just consider them the "necessary evil" that they are. I think having a pool does make our HOA more attractive to potential buyers. It does lower the expense on the individual and noise level than if everyone was allowed to have their own pool. I'd rather pay $50 portion of my dues to pay for pool than actually owning one.

This is why I say keep this idea in perspective. Understand what that pool really means and who is responsible. The developer may be on the hook for installation but then you lose your developer. You all may have to chip in more money to pay for it. It pays for itself in potential buyer attracting which then pays off when someone wants to sell their home. Factor in that worth versus not having a pool. That then is where you start to look into selling the idea of a pool.

Former HOA President
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
You can't make sound financial decisions without actual numbers. So those that have the mentality they simply WANT their pool just might cause this new builder to walk. And you end up with no pool too.

7-8 years to build less than 100 homes out of the proposed 500. Warning sign.

Current owners not paying dues. How many? How much? What is being done? Warning sign.

$800,000 price tag for pool provided by builder. That must be some damn pool. Any paperwork? Any drawings?
Any details? Just what does that get you and is that necessary? Or is the price inflated to make it unreasonable?
Warning sign.

So homes have been sold with the representation there would be a pool built? Is that in their sales contract? If so that might be a breach of that contract and actionable. Meaning legal issues for the community. Warning sign.

My guess none of the current owners, even those who are not paying their dues but might demand a pool, are in a position to negotiate a fair, reasonable settlement to this legally. Going up against the bank and builder in the hopes of getting out with your shirt on is a fantasy. And understanding the owners are new at this seems to me puts them at a distinct disadvantage for any outcome beneficial to them. Just who now represents the interests of the home owners? And can THEY act as a group with the same goals and interests? Some wanting a pool no matter what the cost versus some who might understand forcing the issue might stop development. Warning sign.

And what about the town's requirement with the original builder will that be enforced? Can that be enforced? So without this amenity and just what does that mean amenity? Pool, play area, tennis courts, pick one. The town will cease building? And this project will remain as is. Warning sign.

To many parties with different interests and to many uncertainties. Throw in a disorganized group of homeowners with their own self interests and agendas.
This seems to me to be one hot mess.

CyrstalB (Maryland)
Posts: 457
Posted:
You stated that "The builder and banker stated they did not believe we would be able to sustain a pool and did not have the money for putting a pool in currently which is why they were talking about doing a park area."

I understand no one wants to believe a banker or builder, but I would personally pay attention to this statement because the bank is administering your HOA and they have the necessary skills and experience to assess such an idea and as well look out for the future of your HOA. The builder also has experience in such matters which may be why they have put a park idea on the table.

If they say you don't have the money, why is there still a discussion? Are you willing to put up a special assessment or have the HOA take out a loan?

Our new HOA hood was sold with the idea of sidewalks and street lights and when it was time to turn over the HOA to the owners, at our first meeting, we voted against installing them and kept the money in the account for future reserves.

Our daughter lives in an HOA with 300 single and 200 townhouses, and their beautiful pool complex is empty 90% of the time. Such a shame because it is a really pretty set up!

You may want to save yourself some time and go door to door and just do a simple poll;
Do you want to support the construction and future expense of a pool? Don't overthink this, JonD1 is spot on.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Sorry the search function isn't working - I know I had at least 3 posts on this topic a few years ago, but the basics haven't changed, only the numbers. Pools are nice if everyone is willing to pay for it and understands those costs will go up every year. It may be easier for your community because it's easier to spread the costs among 500 homes as opposed to, say, 156 (my community size).

We had a pool and got rid of it because of (1) low usage (2) high maintenance costs (3) a seriously underfunded reserves which didn't have enough to cover major expenses that were coming up (4) increased insurance costs and (5) it turned into what some insurance types call an attractive nuisance. The pool and clubhouse run along a city street that cuts through the community and we had issues with trespassers and vandals. It took us nearly two years to get enough homeowners to vote to close the thing (lots of apathy), but eventually, we got it done.
And since you're in Missouri, you also have weather to consider. Unless this will be an indoor pool, you'll get a half year's worth of use out of it (our season was memorial day weekend to labor day weekend), and even some of that might get cut if there are thunderstorms or the chemicals are out of whack and the health department shuts it down for a day or two (which happened with our pool a few times).

I'm not saying this will happen in your community, but I've noticed many of the newer communities in my area don't have them, probably for some of the reasons I mentioned. The public park down the street has a pool with a water slide, so it's not like the kids don't have any place to go. Personally I'd put in something that's easier and a little cheaper to maintain, but will get more use. For example, in my sister's HOA, they set up a small park with benches, playground equipment and one or two of those grills you see in public parks. Kids like to congregate and play there and adults stop there for a breather after a walk or jog around the neighborhood. You could also put in small fitness signs where people can stop and stretch.


If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 08/09/2016 6:27 PM
Sorry the search function isn't working - I know I had at least 3 posts on this topic a few years ago, but the basics haven't changed, only the numbers.

Doing an internet search for SheliaH HOATalk Pool provided the following thread started by you:

Subject: Swimming pool vs. property values 2009 thread

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
Not to mention that likely you will see a special assessment applied to build the pool on top of your dues increasing..
ChrisP5 (Missouri)
Posts: 165
Posted:
Fellow Missouri association here. When I purchased the pool was attractive, now that I am on the board I hate it and would fill it in in a heartbeat.

1) we have about 200 homes with few children and spend around 10-12k per year on our pool operating costs. You will also need to reserve for future expenses. Our pool would be undersized if we had more kids.

2) We get about 14 weeks per year of usage from our pool.

3) a 700 home association in our area has a much larger pool,that is still woefully small due to lots of children in the neighborhood. They are considering a second pool. In addition to their operating costs they have had to hire security for peak times to help keep things under control.

4) I agree about the attractive nuisance part. We have had some incredibly random things happen that I couldn't have imagined prior to being on the board.

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