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JeniferB (North Carolina)
Posts: 5
Posted:
We have a board of directors that has been in charge for 10 years. At the meeting last week we had 22 votes (the most they've ever had); we need 40 to have a quorum. The board president was the only one up for re-election/open seat. He said "since we don't have enough for a quorum, we won't be calling a vote." Since there were so many people there, he did hear us out on many of the issues that we have been voicing over the last six months and told the property management company to take action on them. He also had the board of directors vote on them. My question is in the state of North Carolina, how do we move forward to elect someone new to that position? They will never, ever, have a quorum; so if they continue this way they will always stay on the board forever.

Thank you.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JeniferB on 07/15/2016 6:19 AM
We have a board of directors that has been in charge for 10 years. At the meeting last week we had 22 votes (the most they've ever had); we need 40 to have a quorum. The board president was the only one up for re-election/open seat. He said "since we don't have enough for a quorum, we won't be calling a vote." Since there were so many people there, he did hear us out on many of the issues that we have been voicing over the last six months and told the property management company to take action on them. He also had the board of directors vote on them. My question is in the state of North Carolina, how do we move forward to elect someone new to that position? They will never, ever, have a quorum; so if they continue this way they will always stay on the board forever.

Thank you.

If NC allows proxy voting, people don't have to be physically present to cast their vote. If you collected 18 votes via proxy, you could have brought those proxies to the meeting and met your quorum requirement.

2 choices:

1. Wait til next annual election meeting.

2. Call a special meeting where you can force an earlier election.

Your organizing docs should have sections that describe whether Proxies are allowed and what you have to do to call a Special Meeting.

Hope that helps.


Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posted:
Through what authority is their term in office extended without a quorum?
Do your governing documents stats such? If they don't, a 2-year term does not automatically become a 4-year term, does it? I should think not.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DaveD3 on 07/15/2016 7:44 AM
Through what authority is their term in office extended without a quorum?
Do your governing documents stats such? If they don't, a 2-year term does not automatically become a 4-year term, does it? I should think not.

Generally speaking, a sitting board member whose term has expired continues to serve until a new board member is elected.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JeniferB on 07/15/2016 6:19 AM
We have a board of directors that has been in charge for 10 years. At the meeting last week we had 22 votes (the most they've ever had); we need 40 to have a quorum. The board president was the only one up for re-election/open seat. ....

JeniferB N, Carolina:
1- Respectfully, while reviewing your documents you might consider whether the Board self-replenishment actually can be supported to have created a temporary replacement for longer than the deadline for the next attempted General Owner Meeting.

Some self-replenishments may be limited by documents only until next (attempted) GM. IF SO & if as you say your General Meetings have never had quorum, then why are not ALL the self-replenished seats technically not opened up ? No one cares ?

2 - General owners or stakeholders who don't - personally nor by proxy - step up to the plate at least to empower quorum must be satisfied, terrified or confident that their governance universe as it is now, brings risks only within their tolerance level.

If it's "satisfied enough", then at the very least this shrugs duty onto the 'civic minded' or 'poor schmucks' . . whatever . . .

But who exactly are the victims other than those who now run whatever risk, and those who someday may be shrieking at potential bad outcomes ? . . .
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Posted By BobD4 on 07/15/2016 10:11 AM
if as you say your General Meetings have never had quorum, then why are not ALL the self-replenished seats technically not opened up ?

Excellent point Bob.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
CORRECTED:

Quote:
Posted By BobD4 on 07/15/2016 10:11 AM
if as you say your General Meetings have never had quorum, then why are not ALL the self-replenished seats technically not opened up ? No one cares ?

Excellent point Bob.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Hi JeniferB,

1.
I agree with others who say that, until a quorum is achieved at your HOA, the Board is obliged to publicize that all seats on the board are open. The Board should run an election for all these seats until they are filled via a legal quorum.

2.
I also agree with others that the Board should make sure it is doing all it can to achieve a quorum by sending out an explanation of the proxy process and how the HOA risks higher expenses if it cannot achieve a legal quorum, via having to run a second election. Check your Bylaws for what they say about proxies.

3.
My former HOA's governing documents did not state what to do when the annual election meeting failed to have a quorum. The HOA had for some years been very close to not having a quorum, so the Board recently asked the HOA attorney what would happen if a quorum was not achieved. The HOA attorney said the Board had to run another election, presumably within a reasonable timeframe.

4.
How many elections have to be run within a year to satisfy the law? I do not know if this has ever come before the courts before. Given the expense of noticing all members of the election and running the election (typically with an attorney or CPA acting as the election referee), I think one make-up election would be sufficient and defensible by the HOA in court.

5.
If I were a dissatisfied member, to find some peace, I would try to process that a fair interpretation of lack of a quorum probably means that most of the members are pleased with the present board.

6.
You could go around to each household and gather proxies. I understand solicitation for the purpose of gathering proxies is legal, regardless of what the gov docs say. The Board should help with this, too, if it cares about its legality.

7.
One "trick" some HOAs use to obtain a quorum is to disqualify from voting those who are in arrears on assessments and declare that this reduces the number of eligible voters. In turn, this reduces the number needed for a quorum. For example, suppose your HOA has 200 members, 30 of whom have not paid their dues. Suppose the quorum number is 20%. Some HOAs say this means 20% of those eligible to vote constitute a quorum, or in this example, the magic number to achieve a quorum is 20% x 170 = 34. Your governing documents might clarify whether this is allowed. If your gov docs are silent on this, consult a HOA attorney.

8.
I note that, when only a single person is willing to serve on a board, my former HOA's attorney said this could avoid the HOA being forced into receivership. Receivership happens when a HOA has no board, yet the governing documents say it is a HOA and must have one. A court appoints a (paid and expensive) receiver to run the place until the HOA gets someone to serve voluntarily on the board. It seems to me this reality reinforces the legality of your current board continuing to serve as long as they want, as long as they try to run an election every year and trying to get out the vote.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 07/16/2016 7:20 AM

3.
My former HOA's governing documents did not state what to do when the annual election meeting failed to have a quorum. The HOA had for some years been very close to not having a quorum, so the Board recently asked the HOA attorney what would happen if a quorum was not achieved. The HOA attorney said the Board had to run another election, presumably within a reasonable timeframe.

Many HOA docs, including my own, have a reduced quorum requirement for the second try. It's often 50% less.

Example. 100 units. Need 30% for quorum. Only 20 show up. On second attempt, quorum is reduced to 15%. Don't even need all 20 to show up. 15 will do.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Our docs in SC allow us to ?reconvene? the Annual Meeting with a 30 day notice and at each recall, the quorum required is reduced by 50%. I have seen it where in an HOA of 700 that less then 100 (350 to 175 to 88) end up establishing forum and holding an election.

I one HOA it took us two election cycles to get rid of an entrenched BOD. Each election we did a large, coordinated collection of Proxies. It was hard work. We set up tables at the pool and on street corners plus we went door to door. One has to go out and earn change, not just wish for it.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NpS on 07/16/2016 7:37 PM

Many HOA docs, including my own, have a reduced quorum requirement for the second try. It's often 50% less.

Example. 100 units. Need 30% for quorum. Only 20 show up. On second attempt, quorum is reduced to 15%. Don't even need all 20 to show up. 15 will do.

My current HOA, governing docs dated about 2003, does it this way too. My former HOA's governing docs, with no provision for what to do when a quorum was not achieved, were dated 1987. I wonder if declarants wised up over the years, coming up with the brilliant plan to reduce the quorum requirement by 50% for each subsequent election attempt.

JohnC, great suggestion about setting up a proxy-gathering table at the pool.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
I am a firm believer that quorum requirements for the election of director should be eliminated in all HOA's. The only advantage I see in keeping any quorum requirements in place is keeping potential bad directors in power, as they have no incentive ever in making sure quorum is achieved.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardP13 on 07/17/2016 4:01 PM
I am a firm believer that quorum requirements for the election of director should be eliminated in all HOA's. The only advantage I see in keeping any quorum requirements in place is keeping potential bad directors in power, as they have no incentive ever in making sure quorum is achieved.

If you got rid of quorums, what would you put in place to protect against the board that never goes away. Term limits? Something else?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NpS on 07/17/2016 4:34 PM
Posted By RichardP13 on 07/17/2016 4:01 PM
I am a firm believer that quorum requirements for the election of director should be eliminated in all HOA's. The only advantage I see in keeping any quorum requirements in place is keeping potential bad directors in power, as they have no incentive ever in making sure quorum is achieved.

If you got rid of quorums, what would you put in place to protect against the board that never goes away. Term limits? Something else?

Very simple, the person who get the most votes is elected a director, not having to worry about reaching sometimes an impossible number for quorum.

After the 2000 presidential election, I worked for the City of Los Angeles and their election division. After elections, my job was to gather statatcis on just about everyone that you could possibly put a number to.

In California, 70-75% of the people vote for a president, 40-50% vote for a governor, 30% vote for a state senator or assembly person, 30% vote for a new mayor, while less than 15% vote for an incumbent, and less than 15% vote for a city councilman. If we applied the same rules that HOA's go by, outside vote for a president, we wouldn't have any ballots opened.

In an HOA, my job, if running for a position is try and get the most votes, NOT getting % of the membership to vote. If two person vote, so be it. IF don't like what they accomplished, they can always be voted out at the next election or recalled if that serious. Again, this ONLY applies to the election of directors.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardP13 on 07/17/2016 6:03 PM
In an HOA, my job, if running for a position is try and get the most votes, NOT getting % of the membership to vote. If two person vote, so be it. IF don't like what they accomplished, they can always be voted out at the next election or recalled if that serious. Again, this ONLY applies to the election of directors.

I don't see the distinction between getting the most votes and getting a percent of the votes. Like you said, there are very predictable statistical measures you can use in an election to get from one number to the other.

If 2 people vote, hmmm. ... Not sure I'm comfortable with that. Mine is a small HOA of 81 units. We only need 17 for quorum. 5 board members always show up. 12 IMO is a nice safety cushion to keep the board honest.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NpS on 07/17/2016 7:19 PM
Posted By RichardP13 on 07/17/2016 6:03 PM
In an HOA, my job, if running for a position is try and get the most votes, NOT getting % of the membership to vote. If two person vote, so be it. IF don't like what they accomplished, they can always be voted out at the next election or recalled if that serious. Again, this ONLY applies to the election of directors.


I don't see the distinction between getting the most votes and getting a percent of the votes. Like you said, there are very predictable statistical measures you can use in an election to get from one number to the other.

If 2 people vote, hmmm. ... Not sure I'm comfortable with that. Mine is a small HOA of 81 units. We only need 17 for quorum. 5 board members always show up. 12 IMO is a nice safety cushion to keep the board honest.

So I have to assume then that you would be comfortable with having a quorum for the election for your city council person. Talk about keeping them honest.

You know, if quorum were eliminated for the election of directors, most of the people we see here would go away.

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