Is this really an HOA violation? Please help

CarmenG1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 7

Posted:

I installed a playset in the back right corner of yard. Just receive an HOA violation notice stating that "the play set has to be moved so it is within the framework of the house (doesn't extend past the sides of the house). Any other location requires approval.

However, before installing i read the guidelines is this is what it states:

Play Equipment
1. A Form is not required to be submitted for play equipment if the play
equipment is located:
A. Within the extended right and left sides of the house;
B. In the rear yard;
C. Within a screened and fenced area of the rear of the house, if yard
is fenced; and
D. Does not exceed fifteen (15) feet in height and will have a
minimum visual impact on adjacent properties.

2. All play equipment, including, but not limited to, swing sets, slides,
seesaws, jungle gyms, etc., exclusive of wearing surfaces (slide poles,
climbing rungs, swing seats, etc.) will generally be required to blend into
the surrounding environment through the use of earthen colors
comparable to dark green or brown.

Did I read this wrong?

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Is "within the extended right and left side of the house" the same as "within the framework of the house"?

"Back right corner" doesn't sound like it would fit/

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

CarmenG1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 7

Posted:

Not sure i understand. It doesn't sound like it would fit either descriptions?

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Did you ask your HOA board or the property manager? What did they say?

It sounds to me like the playground equipment has to be placed in such a way that it can't be seen from the street, such as in the rear. If the back right corner of your yard can be seen, it may be your playground set is in the wrong spot.

Check your documents again to see if there's an appeals process and use it to get the issue clarified - if you're wrong, I hope it won't be too much to move it, otherwise see if you can get an exception.

If not, consider this a lesson learned - double check what's allowed first, getting it in writing, if necessary to protect yourself and your wallet. Good luck!

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

MarleneP1 (Texas)
Posts: 16

Posted:

I read it as you only have to fill out the form if it is not in compliance with A - D.

However - #2 - are you in compliance with it blending in - blend into the surrounding environment through the use of earthen colors comparable to dark green or brown.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

The guidelines say that "a form is not required" if "within the extended left and right sides of the house".

But instead, you put playset in "back right corner". That location would have required prior approval.

They are telling you to move it into a spot that complies with 1.A. of the guidelines. That's all you have to do apparently - and the issue is closed.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

CarmenG1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 7

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 06/08/2016 1:36 PM
Did you ask your HOA board or the property manager? What did they say?

It sounds to me like the playground equipment has to be placed in such a way that it can't be seen from the street, such as in the rear. If the back right corner of your yard can be seen, it may be your playground set is in the wrong spot.

Check your documents again to see if there's an appeals process and use it to get the issue clarified - if you're wrong, I hope it won't be too much to move it, otherwise see if you can get an exception.

If not, consider this a lesson learned - double check what's allowed first, getting it in writing, if necessary to protect yourself and your wallet. Good luck!

I did read the guidelines before installing, maybe I should have called someone to clarify.

The notice itself is clear, "within the framework of the house", however the ARC wording is not exact. Think I am trying to see if anyone reading both phrases would say they mean the same thing.

"within the framework" and "within the extended right and left sides of house"

CarmenG1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 7

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarleneP1 on 06/08/2016 1:47 PM
I read it as you only have to fill out the form if it is not in compliance with A - D.

However - #2 - are you in compliance with it blending in - blend into the surrounding environment through the use of earthen colors comparable to dark green or brown.

Yeah it is in compliance with the blending. It is a brown wooden playset.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062

Posted:

Carmen,

Three options (as I see it).

1) Move the playset.

2) Request a meeting with the approving authority (Board/Committee). Prior to the meeting, gather letters from neighbors and others who may have line of site of the playset saying that they have no issues with the location (the more the better). Explain that you interpreted the language utilized and thought you were in compliance and apologize for proceeding with the installation with the playset in it's current location (more flies with honey type of thing). At the meeting, provide the letters and necessary forms to request approval for the playsets current location.

3) Wait until the Association takes legal action then fight the issue in court.

Personally, I think options 1 or 2 are the best ones.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

IF your backyard measurement is 60 feet wide and the house is 40 feet , if the playground is within the width of the house, then my reading of the requirement would be satisfied. If it were 5 feet from the right fence, then yes, it would be in violation.

DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796

Posted:

The playset is in the backyard if it's farther from the street than the back of the house. Done. No violation. Tell them to pound sand.

CarmenG1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 7

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 06/08/2016 2:14 PM
Carmen,

Three options (as I see it).

1) Move the playset.

2) Request a meeting with the approving authority (Board/Committee). Prior to the meeting, gather letters from neighbors and others who may have line of site of the playset saying that they have no issues with the location (the more the better). Explain that you interpreted the language utilized and thought you were in compliance and apologize for proceeding with the installation with the playset in it's current location (more flies with honey type of thing). At the meeting, provide the letters and necessary forms to request approval for the playsets current location.

3) Wait until the Association takes legal action then fight the issue in court.

Personally, I think options 1 or 2 are the best ones.

Thanks TimB4, will try option 2 and see how it goes. Personally, I think the wording currently in the guidelines (within the extended left and right sides of house) is ambiguous. Hopefully they will make an exception then change the wording to clearly state within the left and right framework of house.

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 351

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CarmenG1 on 06/08/2016 1:59 PM

The notice itself is clear, "within the framework of the house", however the ARC wording is not exact. "

Items 1 A thru D are clear in there meaning. "Inside the framework of the house" could mean inside the house.

I think you need to comply with 1 A-D

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkM31 on 06/08/2016 9:03 PM

Posted By CarmenG1 on 06/08/2016 1:59 PM

The notice itself is clear, "within the framework of the house", however the ARC wording is not exact. "

Items 1 A thru D are clear in there meaning. "Inside the framework of the house" could mean inside the house.

I think you need to comply with 1 A-D

Really, so 1B, inside the rear yard, would be considered in the house?

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 351

Posted:

That's not what I meant to say, and I think you know that. How could "in the rear yard mean inside the house? But "inside the framework of the house" exactly means inside the house. The entire interior of a house is insde the framework of that house, and only inside the house. A backyard is not inside the framework

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By NpS on 06/08/2016 1:53 PM
The guidelines say that "a form is not required" if "within the extended left and right sides of the house".

But instead, you put playset in "back right corner". That location would have required prior approval.

They are telling you to move it into a spot that complies with 1.A. of the guidelines. That's all you have to do apparently - and the issue is closed.

I read it the same. Obviously, Carmen wants it her way.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkM31 on 06/08/2016 9:57 PM
That's not what I meant to say, and I think you know that. How could "in the rear yard mean inside the house? But "inside the framework of the house" exactly means inside the house. The entire interior of a house is insde the framework of that house, and only inside the house. A backyard is not inside the framework

The playset has to be 10 feet from EITHER side of the fence, outside of a straight line of sight.

BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CarmenG1 : Play Equipment
1. A Form is not required to be submitted for play equipment if the play
equipment is located:
A-C AND D. Does not ....
2. . . . will generally be required to blend into the surrounding environment through the use of earthen colors comparable to dark green or brown.

CarmenG1 N Carolina : Good advice above. As Mark M31 notes, the Guidelines state 5 conditions ALL of which apply. ( ie the word "AND" makes them 'conjunctive' rather than 'disjunctive' and/or.)

Further these are only Guidelines which the Committee might think it can disregard if where you already built for example might be impeding safety on a corner lot or . . ?

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

It serves no real purpose to solicite the views and opinions of others here when in the end it will be the board that determines not only how the guidelines should be interpreted but whether or not they will require this equipment to be moved.

Why has the OP not made plans to speak with the board on this matter?

Seems the OP wants their way after the fact when a simple phone call or perhaps attending a board meeting would have made things clear before moving forward.

Now the OP would like their installation permitted and anyone else who was required to install similar equipment that abided by the guidelines well tough luck for them. So in the future now any guideline or rule is up for change or modification because a homeowner can't be bothered to operate under the framework set by the governing documents and the board.

You live in an HOA before you decide to erect structures on your property best to verify what conditions exist for doing so.

Rules and guidelines are great just as long as they don't apply to what I want........

CarmenG1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 7

Posted:

I try to attached a pic of the notice and Arc guidelines but didn't work.

Their thing is when you drive up into my cul de sac you can see the playset in my backyard. I need to move to were it lines up with the house.

Playset is in the rear, it is brown and sits about 3 feet off to the side in the back (still about 5 feet away from house). They want me to move it to were it lines up with the house.

Base on my interpretation before installing unit my current location is in line with the guidelines. "Within the extended left and right sides of house".

I am going to try an appeal but wanted to see if anyone else had conflict with the wording and base on the discussions here, I might stand a chance.

CarmenG1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 7

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JonD1 on 06/09/2016 6:17 AM
It serves no real purpose to solicite the views and opinions of others here when in the end it will be the board that determines not only how the guidelines should be interpreted but whether or not they will require this equipment to be moved.

Why has the OP not made plans to speak with the board on this matter?

Seems the OP wants their way after the fact when a simple phone call or perhaps attending a board meeting would have made things clear before moving forward.

Now the OP would like their installation permitted and anyone else who was required to install similar equipment that abided by the guidelines well tough luck for them. So in the future now any guideline or rule is up for change or modification because a homeowner can't be bothered to operate under the framework set by the governing documents and the board.

You live in an HOA before you decide to erect structures on your property best to verify what conditions exist for doing so.

Rules and guidelines are great just as long as they don't apply to what I want........

JonD1, a simple yes your interpretation was wrong would work great.

Yes, I would prefer not to move the unit, however, the question was with the way the guideline is worded and the fact that based on my interpretaion I believe I was abiding by them. I would have had no problem requesting approval.

- And yes, I did take the time to read it before installing
- mine is a new community, so yes I did take the time to see what fence was allowed and what requirements I would need for a playset.

Thanks anyway for taking the time to post. Wonderful help

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 351

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RichardP13 on 06/08/2016 11:08 PM

Posted By MarkM31 on 06/08/2016 9:57 PM
That's not what I meant to say, and I think you know that. How could "in the rear yard mean inside the house? But "inside the framework of the house" exactly means inside the house. The entire interior of a house is insde the framework of that house, and only inside the house. A backyard is not inside the framework

The playset has to be 10 feet from EITHER side of the fence, outside of a straight line of sight.

I'm not arguing with what the CC&Rs say, they seem clear in their intention. I'm pointing out the violation letter is extremely poorly written. But that does not change the fact that the swingset is located improperly.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkM31 on 06/09/2016 6:54 AM

Posted By RichardP13 on 06/08/2016 11:08 PM

Posted By MarkM31 on 06/08/2016 9:57 PM
That's not what I meant to say, and I think you know that. How could "in the rear yard mean inside the house? But "inside the framework of the house" exactly means inside the house. The entire interior of a house is insde the framework of that house, and only inside the house. A backyard is not inside the framework

The playset has to be 10 feet from EITHER side of the fence, outside of a straight line of sight.

I'm not arguing with what the CC&Rs say, they seem clear in their intention. I'm pointing out the violation letter is extremely poorly written. But that does not change the fact that the swingset is located improperly.

We don't know exactly where it is located except that it was placed in the back right corner. All we know is what the OP said was stated in the letter. Heaven forbid that the violation letter was cited incorrectly.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 06/08/2016 10:36 PM

Posted By NpS on 06/08/2016 1:53 PM
The guidelines say that "a form is not required" if "within the extended left and right sides of the house".

But instead, you put playset in "back right corner". That location would have required prior approval.

They are telling you to move it into a spot that complies with 1.A. of the guidelines. That's all you have to do apparently - and the issue is closed.

I read it the same. Obviously, Carmen wants it her way.

It seems quite clear that the HOA doesn't want play sets visible from the street. The stated violation was about 1.A. - not having the play set hidden from view behind the house.

Now the OP is going to ask for relief. But on what grounds? Inconvenience?

Why would the HOA have the rule in the first place if they were going to allow a variance to anyone who requested it. How will the HOA explain relief for the OP to the next person?

If the OP had a unique situation with a special needs child - sure. But absent that or a similar situation, I don't see why compliance with the standard is such a big hurdle.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

JamesG11 (Florida)
Posts: 118

Posted:

I'm in Florida so I can't opine re: NC law, but I think the HOA definitely has the more reasonable interpretation here.

In my opinion, requirements A. and B. should have been merged to more clearly read: "Within the rear yard of the Lot directly behind the Home thereon, and within the area running from the rear corners of the Home to the rear property line of the Lot."

However, the HOA's interpretation strikes me as far more reasonable than yours.

If I were in your shoes, I would reach out to the Association for clarification and then honor that clarification if it is consistent with my interpretation. This is definitely NOT a fight you want to take on -- at least, in my opinion.

Lastly, I would encourage you to seek a legal opinion from an experienced HOA attorney in NC if you conclude it advisable after considering the matter on a cost vs. benefit basis.

Good luck to you!

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

YES, it really IS a violation.

Why not simply move the play-set?

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CarmenG1 on 06/09/2016 6:41 AM

Posted By JonD1 on 06/09/2016 6:17 AM
It serves no real purpose to solicite the views and opinions of others here when in the end it will be the board that determines not only how the guidelines should be interpreted but whether or not they will require this equipment to be moved.

Why has the OP not made plans to speak with the board on this matter?

Seems the OP wants their way after the fact when a simple phone call or perhaps attending a board meeting would have made things clear before moving forward.

Now the OP would like their installation permitted and anyone else who was required to install similar equipment that abided by the guidelines well tough luck for them. So in the future now any guideline or rule is up for change or modification because a homeowner can't be bothered to operate under the framework set by the governing documents and the board.

You live in an HOA before you decide to erect structures on your property best to verify what conditions exist for doing so.

Rules and guidelines are great just as long as they don't apply to what I want........

JonD1, a simple yes your interpretation was wrong would work great.

Yes, I would prefer not to move the unit, however, the question was with the way the guideline is worded and the fact that based on my interpretaion I believe I was abiding by them. I would have had no problem requesting approval.

- And yes, I did take the time to read it before installing
- mine is a new community, so yes I did take the time to see what fence was allowed and what requirements I would need for a playset.

Thanks anyway for taking the time to post. Wonderful help

I am sure this board has nothing better to do with their time than now debate what the guidelines are and why this particular play set is in violation.
Seems to me when you get a violation notice that would suggest you are in violation. For real.
Now the simple solution move the play set but rather we plan to debate this issue and approach the board for a variance because this guidelines, rules and documents really don't mean much.
Yes, we are certainly off to a good start. You fail to do the proper research and obtain prior approval and somehow this is now something the board needs to adjust for.
Will be interesting how this works out.

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343

Posted:

The way I read this I wouldn't consider your actions a violation. The guidelines seem clear and I would think any place in the rear would be acceptable. If they did not want it visible from the street it should have been specified and their restrictions should have been outlined in greater detail.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KevinK7 on 06/09/2016 11:54 PM
The way I read this I wouldn't consider your actions a violation. The guidelines seem clear and I would think any place in the rear would be acceptable. If they did not want it visible from the street it should have been specified and their restrictions should have been outlined in greater detail.

I wish that my HOA docs were written differently. But they say what they say. The board interprets them. And if you have a question on the meaning, you can always ask the board.

"In the rear" is only one condition. There are 3 others. The guidelines say "and", not "or".

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

I think others need to re-read the conditions.

# 1 says, A Form is not required to be submitted for play equipment if the play
equipment is located:

It says a form is required, nowhere does it say the playset is not allowed if:

There are four requirements that would require a form to be submitted, 1) NOT Within the extended right and left sides of the house; 2) i NOT in the rear yard, 3) NOT within a screened and fenced area of the rear of the house, if yard is fenced; and 4) Does exceed fifteen (15) feet in height and will have a
minimum visual impact on adjacent properties.

I would think the easiest thing to do is move it within the framework of the home. They also have the option to submit a form per the regulations. Someone who made the decision should know exactly how far off the fence the playset needs to be moved to be in compliance.

BUT, to chide an OP saying the Board has better things to do is UNCALLED for here!