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AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Suppose you are a Director on a Board that met for four hours on June 1 to discuss policy changes it might make that would help deal with banks having taken possession of homes (REOs) but with said banks refusing to pay the HOA dues. The Board believes it will need about two months to finalize the policy changes, discuss the changes with members, and gather feedback. The governing documents require the Board to hold its annual meeting and election on the first Saturday in July. One Director motions to postpone the annual meeting and election to the first Saturday in August, so the Board can actuate the policy changes. The motion is seconded and discussed. Would you vote to:

A. Hold the meeting on the first Saturday in July and don't take advantage of the annual meeting to announce the changes; or

B. Hold the meeting on the first Saturday in August and maximize the opportunity to have a dialogue on what these changes mean to everyone; or

C. Do _________.

I think the aggregate of the responses here might help HOA members better understand how HOA Boards approach their work.

PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
The governing documents require the Board to hold its annual meeting and election on the first Saturday in July.


Simply read the contract and COMPLY with same.

You do NOT have a valid question.

All us 'Directors' need more reading and far less 'thinking'.
DonA2 (Arizona)
Posts: 170
Posted:
A.

Hold the annual meeting when required. Update those present as to the current status of things being proposed and proceed from there.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Yours docs are clear on when the Annual Meeting is to be held. If BOD does not understand something as simple as this and follow it, how many other things do they not understand and/or are not following?
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Thanks for starting a new thread Augustin.

To those who have answered or are thinking of answering -

Would your answer be different if there was no competition for board seats (no new candidates)?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
DonA2 (Arizona)
Posts: 170
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NpS on 06/02/2016 10:04 AM
Thanks for starting a new thread Augustin.

To those who have answered or are thinking of answering -

Would your answer be different if there was no competition for board seats (no new candidates)?

My answer would be the same. If there was no competition for board seats, it really wouldn't matter when the meeting was held, but all the more reason to hold it when required.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DonA2 on 06/02/2016 10:44 AM
Posted By NpS on 06/02/2016 10:04 AM
Thanks for starting a new thread Augustin.

To those who have answered or are thinking of answering -

Would your answer be different if there was no competition for board seats (no new candidates)?


My answer would be the same. If there was no competition for board seats, it really wouldn't matter when the meeting was held, but all the more reason to hold it when required.

But don't you think it matters that the board has enough time to work through some technical details and then be able to make a better presentation to the homeowners who only show up at the annual meeting? Or is hitting a deadline that isn't going to affect the election outcome more important?

In my case, we don't even have to hold an election. The outcome is a foregone conclusion. But the discussion that takes place at the annual meeting makes a huge difference for some of our folks who we won't see for another year.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
DonA2 (Arizona)
Posts: 170
Posted:
Why not hold the meeting when required, present an updated status on what is being worked on then present the finished product at an upcoming meeting when complete? Why hold off the annual meeting, just because the board hasn't finished working on something?
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
why even debate the issue ?

simply adhere to the covenant !
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
I concur with what most have said so far – have the meeting at the time specified in the CCRs and tell homeowners the board is working on a policy and would like their input – details to follow. Once the policy is approved, you’ll have to make a formal announcement to the homeowners anyway - you don't have to delay the annual meeting for that.

You say this policy will address banks that take possession of homes, but don’t pay HOA dues, but this seems to be a procedural thing between the banks and the Association – unlike, say, a change in how parking rules are enforced, I don’t know if homeowners would care enough about this aspect of collections to comment. You SHOULD tell them the impact the banks’ behavior has had on the Association budget and the Board is working on this policy to ensure banks are held responsible when they take over a home, just as it does with individual homeowners.

At the same time, you can also remind homeowners that just because the mortgage company forecloses on a home, that doesn’t necessarily relieve them of the obligation to pay assessments – THAT’s where I’ve seen problems start because the mortgage company files foreclosure, the homeowner moves out and thinks that’s a wrap for his/her obligation to pay.
However, when I was on the board, our attorney told us this is a personal obligation of the homeowner that follows him/her until the delinquency is paid (or the amount discharged in bankruptcy or something else happens that results in the board having to vote to write off the amount). I’ve seen a number of articles on the web (including several from HOA attorneys) that basically say the same thing.

In fact, one went on to say the homeowner should continue to pay HOA fees, regardless of what the mortgage company does or when it does it – that could take a while and in the meantime, the homeowner won’t have to worry about another set of legal action and have to spend more money defending him/herself in court or filing bankruptcy. Not to mention that some HOAs write off delinquent accounts because all their collection efforts have failed and then file 1099-Cs with the IRS on that amount. My understanding is the IRS would consider that income to the owner and therefore taxable.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 06/02/2016 1:31 PM
I concur with what most have said so far – have the meeting at the time specified in the CCRs and tell homeowners the board is working on a policy and would like their input – details to follow. Once the policy is approved, you’ll have to make a formal announcement to the homeowners anyway - you don't have to delay the annual meeting for that.

You say this policy will address banks that take possession of homes, but don’t pay HOA dues, but this seems to be a procedural thing between the banks and the Association – unlike, say, a change in how parking rules are enforced, I don’t know if homeowners would care enough about this aspect of collections to comment. You SHOULD tell them the impact the banks’ behavior has had on the Association budget and the Board is working on this policy to ensure banks are held responsible when they take over a home, just as it does with individual homeowners.

At the same time, you can also remind homeowners that just because the mortgage company forecloses on a home, that doesn’t necessarily relieve them of the obligation to pay assessments – THAT’s where I’ve seen problems start because the mortgage company files foreclosure, the homeowner moves out and thinks that’s a wrap for his/her obligation to pay.
However, when I was on the board, our attorney told us this is a personal obligation of the homeowner that follows him/her until the delinquency is paid (or the amount discharged in bankruptcy or something else happens that results in the board having to vote to write off the amount). I’ve seen a number of articles on the web (including several from HOA attorneys) that basically say the same thing.

In fact, one went on to say the homeowner should continue to pay HOA fees, regardless of what the mortgage company does or when it does it – that could take a while and in the meantime, the homeowner won’t have to worry about another set of legal action and have to spend more money defending him/herself in court or filing bankruptcy. Not to mention that some HOAs write off delinquent accounts because all their collection efforts have failed and then file 1099-Cs with the IRS on that amount. My understanding is the IRS would consider that income to the owner and therefore taxable.

We have people who we see only once a year.

The topic is very complex (and scary to some). Most people won't understand what we're doing, but a banker most certainly will.

Every one knows that 80 houses have been paying for services to 81 houses for 7 years. So everyone understands that this bank problem affects them directly. And we now have our 2nd REO house.

Yes our argument is that banks take responsibility when they take ownership, but we just had a court that decided otherwise. People will want to know what we're going to do about it. We need to have a better answer than "We're working on it?"

Also, it's not uncommon for people to confuse things in their own minds - We might say "we're thinking about ABC." And they might go home thinking "They're gonna do ABC." We're very cautious about pre-announcements, especially at the annual meeting.

As far as personal obligation of homeowner is concerned, this was a nothing down house to a person who shouldn't have been put in a house in the first place. We've decided not to spend HOA money chasing someone who doesn't have a pot to pee in. Sure we can get a judgment. But what does that do for us.

Yes a discharged debt could be income. Board is mixed on whether we should take that path.

BTW, the annual meeting issue was only a hypothetical. The REO house problems are real.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I haven't read every reply carefully, NpS, but I do agree to hold the annual meeting & announce where you are in the process.

PA permits open meetings for Owners if you want to offer them right? When the time is right, hold a open well-publisized board meeting to explain then Board's decision. Then write an article for your newsletter or send out a mailer.

Augustin: what state is your HOA in? Are open board meetings required?
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Hi KerryL, where I am, the state Open Meetings statute does not apply to HOAs except where the HOA is, say, discussing implementation of a federal or state statute or city ordinance and the HOA is effectively an instrument of government.

My HOA's bylaws require that board meetings be open to all members, except when "sensitive matters" need the board's discussion. Then the board can close the meeting to members. State law requires actions taken without a meeting (e.g. by email or phone) to be documented and placed into the HOA records afterward, for all to see. This is not happening at my HOA, but it is the law and so all is not lost, should one want to take the Board to court.

The scenario I presented in the first post to this thread is a blend of what another poster presented at http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/forumid/1/postid/212978/view/topic/tpage/1/Default.aspx, in the opening post and a post NpS made. I think you are participating there. Of note to me is that the original poster really does have a board refusing to hold the annual meeting in the window required by the governing documents.

Thanks to all for your input. It has validated my belief that my own HOA's board has 'gone through the looking glass,' since it acts similarly to Troy's board. I have decided to ignore board meetings, enjoy the neighbors who 'get it,' and am otherwise silent about bad decisions that cost the members inappropriately. At the same time, I have no conflict in my life and do not have the headaches of running the place. I have offered to serve should a director resign, as a matter of personal ethics. I do not expect anyone else to serve. Regardless of who a member is and whether they are willing to serve on a board or committee, I think their complaints deserve to be heard out at least once for each complaint. If a violation of the gov docs has occurred, the complaint should be remedied whenever possible.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 06/02/2016 3:30 PM
I haven't read every reply carefully, NpS, but I do agree to hold the annual meeting & announce where you are in the process.

PA permits open meetings for Owners if you want to offer them right? When the time is right, hold a open well-publisized board meeting to explain then Board's decision. Then write an article for your newsletter or send out a mailer.

Augustin: what state is your HOA in? Are open board meetings required?

Hi Kerry

PA is not an open meeting state.

If we have something we want to discuss with the homeowners, we'll call a town hall style single-issue open meeting.

The rest of the time, the board meets in each other's homes. If someone asked to sit in, we'd invite them, but that never happens.

The annual meeting issue was only a hypothetical.

The question I was trying to set up was as follows: If the composition of the board never changes because no one new is willing to run, and if it's a significant effort to set up a town hall meeting, what's the harm of holding the annual meeting one month later than stated in the HOA docs?


Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
As others have said, hold the meeting as required and mention the work being done on the proposed policy.

Keep in mind, I think that such a policy (specific to banks) is unneeded.
Your Association should already have a collection policy.
The fact that the bank is now the owner is not relevant.
Simply follow the collection policy that you have in place (as you would with any other member) including foreclosure procedures if needed.

However, FL has some odd laws regarding assessments and they seem to be the exception to the rule.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 06/02/2016 7:44 PM
Keep in mind, I think that such a policy (specific to banks) is unneeded.
Your Association should already have a collection policy.
The fact that the bank is now the owner is not relevant.

Would you say something different if a bank tried after the foreclosure sale to retain it's priority as a foreclosing mortgagee over HOA liens in order to wipe out liens from charges that we assessed AFTER the bank took ownership, and a judge allowed them to do it?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002
Posted:
AugustinD N Mexico
General Meeting should be held on the covenanted date. Some jurisdiction -like mine - for good reasons further specifically legislate a deadline like mine no later than 6 months after condo financial year-end. Does your state incidentally have condo or HOA deadline police ? )

Is "REO" ( in your topic above) a reference to either or both of Power of Sale or formal Foreclosure ?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NpS on 06/02/2016 8:02 PM
Posted By TimB4 on 06/02/2016 7:44 PM
Keep in mind, I think that such a policy (specific to banks) is unneeded.
Your Association should already have a collection policy.
The fact that the bank is now the owner is not relevant.

Would you say something different if a bank tried after the foreclosure sale to retain it's priority as a foreclosing mortgagee over HOA liens in order to wipe out liens from charges that we assessed AFTER the bank took ownership, and a judge allowed them to do it?

No.

I would also encourage the board to appeal any such ruling as the Bank, having taken possession of the property, would have already satisfied the mortgage.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 06/03/2016 1:01 AM
Posted By NpS on 06/02/2016 8:02 PM
Posted By TimB4 on 06/02/2016 7:44 PM
Keep in mind, I think that such a policy (specific to banks) is unneeded.
Your Association should already have a collection policy.
The fact that the bank is now the owner is not relevant.

Would you say something different if a bank tried after the foreclosure sale to retain it's priority as a foreclosing mortgagee over HOA liens in order to wipe out liens from charges that we assessed AFTER the bank took ownership, and a judge allowed them to do it?


No.

I would also encourage the board to appeal any such ruling as the Bank, having taken possession of the property, would have already satisfied the mortgage.

Appeal is under consideration at an estimated cost of $25-30k. Could easily take a year or more. From now til then, we're vulnerable.

So while I might agree with you in the long term, it's not the safest path for us to take in the short term IMO.

One example of what we're thinking about that we never had to consider before.

We paint houses every six years. Current cost is around $3k per house. But if it's a REO house, houses can sit vacant for years both pre- and post-foreclosure. We've decided that we can still fulfill our obligation to paint REO houses, but to pro-rate the cost based on the number of months prior to painting we had been receiving fees. So if not collecting fees for 3 years out of 6, we would invoice the REO owner for the $1.5k that hadn't been paid in.

That's one of around 4 ideas that we're kicking around at the moment to protect the HOA from being taken advantage of by REOs.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BobD4 on 06/02/2016 8:14 PM
AugustinD N Mexico
General Meeting should be held on the covenanted date. Some jurisdiction -like mine - for good reasons further specifically legislate a deadline like mine no later than 6 months after condo financial year-end. Does your state incidentally have condo or HOA deadline police ? )

Is "REO" ( in your topic above) a reference to either or both of Power of Sale or formal Foreclosure ?

Bob, thank you for the input. If by condo or HOA deadline police you mean some kind of state-funded commission that deals with certain condo or HOA matters, then no, my state has no such commission. Under state law where I am, the only "police" HOAs and condos have are the courts. Under my current HOA's rules, when the accused in a hearing is not satisfied with the outcome, then the accused may ask for arbitration under a certain state statute. HUD forced the HOA to add the arbitration clause a few years ago.

REO means "real estate owned by lender." NpS posed this aspect of the above hypothetical. I hope you will keep dialoguing with him to ascertain the precise type of REO situation with which he is dealing. I am following your discussion with him on this. I remember Wells Fargo having possession of a house in my former HOA. The HOA had liened the house some years before, for non-payment of assessments. Wells Fargo called the business manager around 2011 and sweetly asked if the HOA would waive the payment of back assessments and remove the lien so the sale could go through. The business manager forwarded the request to the Board. The Board unanimously said no; pay up. The business manager opined his agreement. All of us thought this showed hubris and arrogance on Wells Fargo's part. I cannot remember if the sale went through.

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