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NicolleT (Minnesota)
Posts: 3
Posted:
Hello - I'm searching high and low for an answer to this question. I serve on a condo HOA BOD and we have an ongoing noise complaint issue. Owner #1 lives below Owner #2 and claims disturbance weekly. As a bod, we have warned and fined #2 a number of times but #2 denies disturbance and has witnesses to back him up. We held a hearing with both parties and #2 made a promise to be mindful of noise, another complaint came through from #1 two days later. We have recommended that #1 call the police to report disturbances with every complaint but he feels that would be a waste of officer's time. As a BOD, we recommended mediation and even offered to pay for it but #1 has refused mediation. I feel that after months of back and forth and in light of the refusal of mediation, we have exhausted our resources. My question is - is there a time that the BOD can excuse themselves from further involvement in a he said/he said situation?
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
I'm not aware of any time limit, but if your board has made it clear this is a dustup between neighbors, that's how you need to treat it, especially since owner 1 won't mediate the issue. Send a letter to both, telling them they will have to work this out between themselves because it's NOT an association issue. It would become an issue if several neighbors were complaining about owner 2. If owner 1 won't mediate and/or can't prove other people are being disturbed, he/she can always pursue this in small claims court. If he/she threatens to sue, let them - they would still have to show this is an association issue and explain why mediation was declined (that may not look good to the small claims court judge)

By the way, it's nice of your board to offer to pay for mediation. I prefer mediation before people go to court, but I think the association's paying for mediation should only be done if an owner has a dispute with the association. - personally I would only do that if there was an issue between the association and an owner.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
IMO, unless there are others involved, this is a neighbor to neighbor dispute. Most CCRs grant an easement of quiet enjoyment and a disruption might be deemed a nuisance, which is also in your CCRs.

It sounds like the Board has taken the necessary steps as some might require in cases like this and the alleged offending party refuses to mediate. If you have legal counsel, I would have them write letters to both parties that further actions needs to go through the courts. These can get very costly for an association. Where I lived it left a legal tab of $250K.
NicolleT (Minnesota)
Posts: 3
Posted:
I agree and moving forward will hold mediation for that reason only. We were/are trying to help them get to some resolution but at this point, we just need to step out of the equation.
NicolleT (Minnesota)
Posts: 3
Posted:
Thank you, It is actually the complaining party that has refused mediation but continues to send complaints followed by demands to know 'what action the board will be taking' in response to the complaint. Do you think that our council needs to be the one to write the letters? Do you see any potential harm if they come directly from the BOD?
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Nicolle

I would commend the Board for taking the extra steps that others Board would not. You have your efforts on record and would hold the association harmless in the event of a lawsuit between the other two parties.

Good Job!
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NicolleT on 05/27/2016 9:49 AM
Thank you, It is actually the complaining party that has refused mediation but continues to send complaints followed by demands to know 'what action the board will be taking' in response to the complaint. Do you think that our council needs to be the one to write the letters? Do you see any potential harm if they come directly from the BOD?

With something like this, I would invest the $300.00 to have your counsel write the letter. I am not a fan of attorney, but it might sit better IF the association were ever dragged into this.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Has the complainer invited any directors in during the noise? Or staff if you have them? She needs witnesses, imo, or she has nothing for the Board.

i think you're doing the right thing at this point, Nicolle.

BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NicolleT 05/27/2016 8:56 AM
I'm searching high and low for an answer to this question. . . . My question is - is there a time that the BOD can excuse themselves from further involvement in a he said/he said situation?

NicolleT Minnesota : 1- Respectfully the question is actually for you : what is the standard of duty to obtain compliance IF ANY - within your governance documents ?

The question would have been :" what does the Minnesota condo statutes express - If ANY - to be the Board's duty to obtain compliance / halt disturbance?" I can't find it in either Minnesota condo statute, but I wonder if the site specific documents address that specifically.

The next questions would be the adequacy & speed of your investigation. Do you know if the disturbance exceeds reasonable levels ?

2 In 2013 a lawyer owner in my jurisdiction obtained a $40,000 legal award & a finding of statutory oppression against her urban highrise condo Board.

Under an express statutory duty to use reasonable efforts to obtain compliance, it under-complianced for 4 years an illegal Bollywood dance studio introduced into the unit above after illegal removal of carpet. It even retaliated against the victim.

Ultimately the dancers moved & the lawyer owner further but unsuccessfully - sought a fullscale Contempt of Court penalty against the Board ( cost her $20 K ).

The general condo owners have to have sucked up at least $100,000.

3 So what - IF ANY - is expressed as a corporation duty to obtain compliance within the governance documents 9 and possibly within Minnesota condo statutes ?

If there is none, how comfortable is the Board just writing letters that might be getting just laughed off by a possible disturber ?
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Perhaps the following, by a condo attorney who blogs, might be helpful. Note the device that records noise levels. Spending some $350 for it might be a good corporate investment.

http://condolawguru.com/2016/05/noise-transmission-new-information-from-a-client/

I would like to know exactly what the condo's governing documents say about noise.

NicolleT also asked about a board stepping out of this matter. If the Board believes it has complied with the governing documents, and the HOA attorney agrees, then in my experience the next response is for the BOD, not the HOA attorney, to write the complainant and say, with regret, it can do nothing more on this and will no longer respond to further complaints on the matter. Then it's up to the complainant to contact the city or seek legal counsel for remedies. The board and manager need to have the stomach to ignore further complaints on the matter.
BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002
Posted:
Good digging to find that blog by attorney Beth Grimm who has just receievd 7 reolied to Nicolle's question.

Will I ever see a condo law statute that obligates governancers to deliver & guarantee the silence of the tomb ?

But will I ever see a condo law statute that exempts Board compliancing efforts unless there are two or more complainer units ?

Probably not to either. But sending letter after letter to some incorrigible disturber, is like a story about Do Not Remove tags on beach mattresses.

If a state law and/or body of judicial treatment indicates that bona fide reasonable compliancing efforts are required of the Board, wouldn't one expect credible hardcopy proof of investigation & adequacy of compliancing attempts

eg "we attended at reported frequency of usual disturbances. We reviewed the complainer's logs of being disturbed. We inspected the alleged source unit to see for example if carpeting had deteriorated / been replaced with hardwood or cheaper noise isolators ? " " We reviewed the applicable Building Code of date of construction, as evidence of deficient noise isolation. . . . . We explored the magic noise decibel device. . . . .

We thereafter made a proven attempt to trigger M&A if required pre-litigation by law or governancing documents. . . .

Then - IF required by condo law or governancing documents - we sought a judicial compliancing order hopefully legislated to allow 100 % legal costs recovery if granted. . . . .

OR having fully complied with legislated/contracted compliancing duty, we then passed the issue back to the complainer if instead legally/contractually permissible. "

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NicolleT on 05/27/2016 9:49 AM
It is actually the complaining party that has refused mediation but continues to send complaints followed by demands to know 'what action the board will be taking' in response to the complaint. Do you think that our council needs to be the one to write the letters? Do you see any potential harm if they come directly from the BOD?


Unless there is something to the contrary in your governing documents, your board has no duty to respond to any complaints, especially repetitious demands from an uncooperative chronic complainer. Your board has offered a very generous pathway for resolving the problem - if one actually exists - but your member insists upon involving the association in what is his or her personal problem.

It would be appropriate to respond that since the complaining party has rejected the board's offer to pay for mediation that the board has no further interest in this matter.

BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NicolleT on 05/27/2016 8:56 AM
Hello - I'm searching high and low for an answer to this question. . . . As a bod, we have warned and fined #2 a number of times but #2 denies disturbance and has witnesses to back him up. . . . .As a BOD, we recommended mediation and even offered to pay for it but #1 has refused mediation. . . . . My question is - is there a time that the BOD can excuse themselves from further involvement in a he said/he said situation?

Literally deconstructing Nicolle`s description of the scenario, her Board has investigated enough to draw a conclusion that it should write letter(s)to the alleged disturber. They fined.

She relates some degree of confession by the alleged disturber.

Refusing mediation the complainant may have enough acuity to recognize that mediation is unlikely to succeed with incorrigible flat out scofflaws. ( But of course this may or may not be the case here )

In some jurisdictions like mine, a next step court appointed arbitrator - able to proceed ex parte or without participation by the accused - may award an enforceable outcome.

One notorious noise scofflaw here in 2008 was hit by almost $80 K in Board-generated arbitration & further appeal costs. The sociopath had stripped out carpet & installed hardwood without Board approval. The jerk ignored orders to halt high levels of noise. He ultimately narrowly lost a deficiency defence on appeal that the highrise`s noise isolation standards were barely above Building Code at date of construction. The Board had recognized an express statutory duty and hired one of the country`s top condo lawyers to kick sense into the scofflaw.

Respectfully, Nicolle`s issue returns to whether letters & mediation recommendations satisfy the literal burden of whatever might be in her state`s law & body of judicial treatment or ultimately in her site-specific governance documents to the extent that such might be valid. Fines may not be working there.

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