Irrigation questions

Started by DavidF22 • 33 replies • 1805 views

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DavidF22 (New York)
Posts: 91

Posted:

At our gated townhome complex, we have significant lawn acreage and open vistas that require extensive irrigation. Our current irrigation contractor claims that the rain monitors are working properly and that he and his crew check the weather and adjust things accordingly to limit water usage. In the past few years, our water bills were sky-high and we are anticipating the same thing with our contractor's status quo attitude. Despite his claims, members of our board have observed numerous cases of what appears to be over-watering (i.e., sprinklers going on just before or after rain).

Are there consultants or contractors who could come in, review our system and make recommendations for new technology that wouldn't break the bank? We are currently spending between $35-$40K and our complex is about 60 acres, including lawns and shrubs.

Any ideas would be welcome. Thanks.

AllisonD (Florida)
Posts: 449

Posted:

I have been trying to learn more about our irrigation system myself; here is a link I found with a simplified but good explanation about the different kinds of sensors. Do you know which kind you have?
http://www.sprinklerwarehouse.com/rain-sensor-types-s/8309.htm

DavidF22 (New York)
Posts: 91

Posted:

Thanks. We'll check that out, At this stage, we don't know what type. We're a relatively new board and we're trying to learn the system. I did go to the Rain Bird site for info: http://www.rainbird.com/.

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

NO sensor could tell it is ABOUT to rain.

Therefor it is possible (probable at times) that it may rain immediately after irrigation occurs.

The way most sensors work is they have an 'absorbtive' element which expands when wetted (rained upon)which then activates a 'defeat switch' preventing the solenoids on the system from opening.

There is 'some' limited adjustment capability.

However, unless massive $$$$$ is spent on computerized systems which are internet connected for forecasts, the typical sensor driven system will be less than perfect.

The cheapest solution is to use well water for irrigation using fixed timers.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PitA on 05/24/2016 2:33 PM
NO sensor could tell it is ABOUT to rain.

Therefor it is possible (probable at times) that it may rain immediately after irrigation occurs.

The way most sensors work is they have an 'absorbtive' element which expands when wetted (rained upon)which then activates a 'defeat switch' preventing the solenoids on the system from opening.

There is 'some' limited adjustment capability.

However, unless massive $$$$$ is spent on computerized systems which are internet connected for forecasts, the typical sensor driven system will be less than perfect.

The cheapest solution is to use well water for irrigation using fixed timers.

Pita

That's not correct. New irrigation controllers are now satellite based. There don't have rain hit them to let them know it is raining. It will adjust by temperature, up or down and water either longer or shorter. It can be programmed for pitch to avoid runoff.

They have people specialized in this field and also training specifically for the controller you may have purchased. You must have someone qualified, or you will not realize the savings you should experience.

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

Correct

They, however, do NOT have the 'connected' controllers.

They have sensors and timer/controllers - please read what they wrote.

I mentioned the big $$$$ system in my reply.

Part of the $$$$ would be the monthly fee for the connection - just like a cell phone.

DonA2 (Arizona)
Posts: 170

Posted:

WE just added a smart clock to our irragation system. We are already seeing returns. It cost us approx $2k for the controller, but we anticipate saving that in our first year of usage.

We got something like this:
http://www.rainbird.com/landscape/products/controllers/ESP-SMTe.htm

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

Yep, $2000 for a device with an algorithm to 'guess', based on INTERNALLY programmed past history, when you need to water.

So, it can still POUR the same day as it watered as it does NOT sense or monitor actual weather conditions, merely 'guesses' based on programmed history - albeit it claims to have a 'learning curve'.

However, it will PREVENT watering AFTER a rainfall - just like a $70 hygroscopic sensor connected to a standard controller.

? Y'all are fully capable of operating this modern marvel ?

DonA2 (Arizona)
Posts: 170

Posted:

It can also be accessed by smartphone or computer. So it can be shut down or reduced manually if necessary manually.

And as I said, we are already seeing a difference in our water bill. It might not be for everyone, but it's working for us.

DonA2 (Arizona)
Posts: 170

Posted:

It can also be accessed by smartphone or computer. So it can be shut down or reduced manually if necessary.

And as I said, we are already seeing a difference in our water bill. It might not be for everyone, but it's working for us.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PitA on 05/25/2016 7:53 AM
Yep, $2000 for a device with an algorithm to 'guess', based on INTERNALLY programmed past history, when you need to water.

So, it can still POUR the same day as it watered as it does NOT sense or monitor actual weather conditions, merely 'guesses' based on programmed history - albeit it claims to have a 'learning curve'.

However, it will PREVENT watering AFTER a rainfall - just like a $70 hygroscopic sensor connected to a standard controller.

? Y'all are fully capable of operating this modern marvel ?

As usual, you're right. We put some of those stupid things in my former complex and only saved $300K over 5 years. What a total waste of money!

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

As usual, you miss the point.

A $70 hygroscopic sensor will save 95% of the water a $2000 controller will save.

NEITHER will shut down the system PRIOR to a rain event.

Said shut down must be done manually - using a 'remote' is still a manual operation.

HOWEVER

Feel free to integrate your life with your 'cell phone' device

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PitA on 05/25/2016 10:54 AM
As usual, you miss the point.

A $70 hygroscopic sensor will save 95% of the water a $2000 controller will save.

NEITHER will shut down the system PRIOR to a rain event.

Said shut down must be done manually - using a 'remote' is still a manual operation.

HOWEVER

Feel free to integrate your life with your 'cell phone' device

Please come back when you know what you're talking about!

DonA2 (Arizona)
Posts: 170

Posted:

WE don't care if it has to be shut down manually or works automatically. It is saving us money and will into the future and that is what is important.

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

Y'all spent $2000 to save x gallons per year.

We spent $70 to save .95x gallons per year.

Y'all are saving nominally more gallons.

Y'all spent 25 times as much to do so.

The actual facts speak for themselves, even though they may be embarrassing.

DonA2 (Arizona)
Posts: 170

Posted:

Not embarrassing at all to me. Money well spent from where I sit. You did what works best for your community, we did what is working the best for ours.

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

Don,

not embarrassing to you

? the other guy / jabberwock ?

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PitA on 05/25/2016 2:29 PM
Y'all spent $2000 to save x gallons per year.

We spent $70 to save .95x gallons per year.

Y'all are saving nominally more gallons.

Y'all spent 25 times as much to do so.

The actual facts speak for themselves, even though they may be embarrassing.

The actual number of water saved so far is 44,880,000 gallons.

DavidF22 (New York)
Posts: 91

Posted:

DonA2 and RichardP13, I'd very much like to know more about the control systems you used to save water. Does it make sense for us to contact a Rain Bird distributor for a consultation?

We have 56 homes on about 60 acres in the Northeast, but that also includes structures, roads, driveways, etc., so I'm not sure of the actual acreage that's watered. Needless to say, we have vast lawns across much of the community.

Last year, our water bill was $37K with lawn irrigation taking place between April and October. Our new Board inherited an irrigation contractor that has been used by the community for a long time, but I have a gut feeling he may not be up on the latest technology or be that interested in helping us save water.

If we could install a $2,000 device that would save more than that each year in water and would help us to irrigate more intelligently, we would jump on it. The irrigation guy and the landscaper are both pushing wells, but that requires a five-figure upfront investment, ongoing maintenance and additional infrastructure that the Board doesn't need on its already full plate.

Any additional information on your experiences would be much appreciated. Thanks!

DavidF22 (New York)
Posts: 91

Posted:

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DavidF22 on 05/25/2016 4:25 PM
DonA2 and RichardP13, I'd very much like to know more about the control systems you used to save water. Does it make sense for us to contact a Rain Bird distributor for a consultation?

We have 56 homes on about 60 acres in the Northeast, but that also includes structures, roads, driveways, etc., so I'm not sure of the actual acreage that's watered. Needless to say, we have vast lawns across much of the community.

Last year, our water bill was $37K with lawn irrigation taking place between April and October. Our new Board inherited an irrigation contractor that has been used by the community for a long time, but I have a gut feeling he may not be up on the latest technology or be that interested in helping us save water.

If we could install a $2,000 device that would save more than that each year in water and would help us to irrigate more intelligently, we would jump on it. The irrigation guy and the landscaper are both pushing wells, but that requires a five-figure upfront investment, ongoing maintenance and additional infrastructure that the Board doesn't need on its already full plate.

Any additional information on your experiences would be much appreciated. Thanks!

David,

I used to live in Los Angeles where the use of water is now $9.79 per 748 gallons used, whether taking a bath, washing dishes or watering the lawn. Neighboring cities charge just over $3.00 for the same measure of water. Where I currently live, the rate is $3.22 per HCF. So saving money was paramount to some of us.

Two of us Board members ( the other three were BMINO) did the research and came to the conclusion the Hermit Crab-ET Water controllers and accessories were our best solution. We had 13 (24 station) controllers and paid $1190 per controller, plus $20 per month, per controller for satellite service. There were programmed that if the weather channel PREDICTED a 40% chance of rain, it shut down, it didn't need moisture.

Bottomline was, we invested over the 5 years $31K and saved $300K. I believe we made a wise investment.

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

The actual number of water saved so far is 44,880,000 gallons.

42,636,000 gallons would have been saved with a simple 'dumb' hygroscopic disk sensor ($70) requiring no satellite connection

however

you, the customer, are happy

DonA2 (Arizona)
Posts: 170

Posted:

It looks like nothing is a perfect fix....

http://ascelibrary.org/doi/abs/10.1061/(ASCE)IR.1943-4774.0000381

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

ps. It takes longer to get and set the ladder than it does to replace the disc(s) every other year.

DonA2 (Arizona)
Posts: 170

Posted:

All I know is in the two months we've had it, we've saved over $1400 from what we paid in the same time frame last year. So for us, it's a win. Was it the only option, probably not. But so far it appears to be well worth the investment.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Pita

We could have installed such a system, but we could easily have just gone to each controller and turn them off for the duration of the rain.

That was NOT the type of system we wanted, NOR the type of system we purchased. The system installed will allow reports of how much water each controller used each day it was used. We use those report for comparisons. The system would adjust water usage for the temperature forecasted for a specific day. It could also be adjusted for the pitch of a slope, which in our case was hugely beneficial.

Our annual water bill for irrigating the common areas was $240K. This was no drop in the bucket. We would have had NO interest in your solution, but thanks.

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RichardP13 on 05/26/2016 11:37 AM
Pita

We could have installed such a system, but we could easily have just gone to each controller and turn them off for the duration of the rain.

That was NOT the type of system we wanted, NOR the type of system we purchased. The system installed will allow reports of how much water each controller used each day it was used. We use those report for comparisons. The system would adjust water usage for the temperature forecasted for a specific day. It could also be adjusted for the pitch of a slope, which in our case was hugely beneficial.

Our annual water bill for irrigating the common areas was $240K. This was no drop in the bucket. We would have had NO interest in your solution, but thanks.

Glad it worked for you.

The system installed will allow reports of how much water each controller used each day it was used.

not likely unless industrial grade flow sensors are installed, but it will record how long each zone was 'powered'

The system would adjust water usage for the temperature forecasted for a specific day.

that actually is a good feature - never heard of it before

It could also be adjusted for the pitch of a slope,

so would adjusting the zone 'run time' ONCE

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Pita

You sound like one of my previous board member to a "T".

Sorry, they do have water usage report fro each controller, WITHOUT a special flow sensor.

As far as pitch, it would water for 15 minutes but at 3 different times. The amount of time would be determined by need.

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

so,

the controller knows the water pressure at the time of 'run'

it knows the 'developed length' of the piping

it knows the calculated friction loss

it knows the pipe sizes and the valve flow rate

don't think so

it merely makes an 'educated guess based on run time

this is MY field of expertise as a retired plumber/fitter/instrument technician

however, knowing that the controller can anticipate temperature based on 'satellite' info is invaluable

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

so would adjusting the zone 'run time' ONCE

I meant the statement in the generic sense that once adjusted for run time and/or frequency, you are done - referring to slope only.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

You might want to speak with the company with the $70 hygrosonic sensor to come up with better marketing materials.

Could we achieved the amount of savings with your gadget? We did the research, it apparently paid off, no regrets.

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

No, you could only get 90-95% of your savings - but at 1/25 the upfront cost with minimal bi-annual maintenance and NO monthly 'satellite' fee(s).

see:

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/US6570109B2/US06570109-20030527-D00003.png

and

http://www.saws.org/conservation/outdoor/images/rainSensorYard.jpg

and

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=hygroscopic+disc+irrigation+rain+sensor+controller&FORM=HDRSC2

enjoy yourself browsing

DonA2 (Arizona)
Posts: 170

Posted:

David, the system we are using is from ETWater (www.etwater.com).

No regrets so far.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144

Posted:

The best help by far I have received regarding irrigation problems was from http://www.lawnsite.com/forums/irrigation.16/ . Lots of irrigation technicians post there pro bono. Registration and posting are free.

About ten years ago, my former HOA had rain sensors. But they never worked well and were eventually abandoned. The water bills in the summer were $15,000 to $30,000 each month. About a third of the HOA's annual expenses were for irrigation water. I understand your concerns.

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