HOA Board + Management Co. wantonly violate Bylaws, CC&Rs and State Law

Hello, I am new here...and I did not know such forums existed until now.

I have my HOA Board of directors scrambling because I've been constantly riding them to follow the governing documents and the law for the past 17+ years.

Things came to a head at the last board meeting when I brought a digital voice recorder. At the onset of the meeting the management company rep asked if I was going to record, said yes, then she advised what few board members there to vote on allowing it. I immediately put a stop to that advising them that state law establishes my right to record said meeting. Her retort was that the Robert's Rule of Order allow the board to vote on it. Told her no, those rules are guidelines for the board on conducting the meeting, they do not supersede state. The board members already irritated with me (because I've forced them to follow the governing documents and the law one time too many for them over the past 17 years) wanted to argue and I simply asked them to cite the authority that trumps state law. They could not so they arbitrarily cancelled the meeting, thereby closing the meeting denying the other homeowners present an opportunity to participate, claiming they were going to reconvene in executive session to meet with an attorney without providing what date/meeting that would be.

This past weekend, just days before the scheduled annual meeting, we received a post card advising that that annual meeting was cancelled and postponed to July. Our Bylaws specifically state that the annual meeting [shall] be in the months of either May or June. Also in that notice we were advised that the regular June meeting will go immediately into executive session for 45 minutes before continuing with the regular meeting. This too is in violation of state law that specifically states that at a meeting the presiding member of the board needs to make a motion to go into executive session and give a general description of the action to be taken and when the minutes of that meeting will be made available to the homeowners.

I have documented all the violations of our HOA here: http://okhawatchdog.blogspot.com/ and here: https://www.facebook.com/oakknollhoa.watchdog/

I recently enlisted the help of our county mediation council, and the management company gave the typical reply that they would need to consult the board members and HOA attorney before answering whether or not they will participate in mediation.

Our President flat out lied and contradicted a written statement in a November 2014 newsletter that their long standing misinterpretation of what the common improvements are regarding the street trees would no longer be an issue going forward, and that no street trees would be maintained by the association. Our CC&Rs state EVERY street tree on EVERY Lot is a common improvement, but the past boards took it upon themselves to interpret the CC&Rs as they wanted it to read and not what it actually read to maintain street trees along Foothills Drive only, to the benefit of those homeowners only, yet at the cost/expense of every homeowner (which, as you could guess, also is in violation of state law under our Planned Community Act).

This street tree issue was put to rest, but another homeowner irritated by my success joined the board, again (he resigned years before), and first on his item/agenda was putting the Foothills Drive street trees back into the HOA budget. They created an unreasonable resolution that essentially redefined what street trees are, change the language of the CC&Rs and called it good. This is unenforceable since such an act requires an amendment to the CC&Rs, which the Board knows because they tried in 2011 and it FAILED at the meeting. They don't care to follow the law or the CC&Rs that clearly stipulate that a vote of 75% or more of the homeowners is required to make any amendment to the CC&Rs.

So to keep this long story short...our HOA Board of Directors are out of control, supported by an inept management company and ineffective counsel working for the so-called premiere law firm on HOA matters in our state.

At this point waiting to hear back from mediation as to whether or not they will agree to it; if not, great, I already have a legal complaint in the works.

Thoughts? Feedback?

Thank you!

Welcome Troy.

Not sure what you're looking for.

People who use words like "wantonly" usually come here to rant, but don't hang around that long.

Many of the posters here have gone through the long and difficult process of getting elected to the board because they are frustrated with current mismanagement. One board vote doesn't do much, so it usually takes a couple of cycles to change the composition of the board in any significant way. It can take years to get things turned around.

My big questions for you are:

1. How many units in your HOA?

2. How many of them would vote for you if you ran for a board seat?

Also, unclear to me whether mediation would be a worthwhile path for you and your HOA. Mediation involves reaching a mutually agreeable voluntary solution - Don't get the impression that's going to happen.

When there are financial disputes, I generally like to know what the actual numbers are before I comment. There are situations when principal trumps finances, and sometimes it's the other way around. But the numbers are always important.

"Not sure what you're looking for."

Thoughts and feedback.

"People who use words like "wantonly" usually come here to rant, but don't hang around that long. "

Please do not get hung up on semantics, it would be counter productive to a healthy, productive discussion. And I will be around a long time, I do not give up easily when it comes to defending myself and others who are not equipped to defend themselves in our collective problem.

"My big questions for you are:

1. How many units in your HOA?

2. How many of them would vote for you if you ran for a board seat?"

198 homes/lots; and I am sure a majority, to include current board members and the management company would vote for me to be on the board. No interest.

"Also, unclear to me whether mediation would be a worthwhile path for you and your HOA. Mediation involves reaching a mutually agreeable voluntary solution - Don't get the impression that's going to happen."

I have to go to mediation before filing a lawsuit, state statute requires it.

Troy

"If you want something done right, you have to do it yourself".

Myself, and I have to assume some others have been in the same predicament. No one here is going to be able to tell you what to do. Only you will be able to make the changes you desire. If you have no interest, then get others that you can recruit to do it for you.

Most associations are mini-governments with no state or local oversight. They may have statues and rules, BUT, who is going to enforce them?

The way I see it, you have three choices, get along, fight, or move.

I have had several offers for assistance to go door to door to get votes to terminate the CC&Rs, that will be in the works soon.

The court can force an HOA to follow the governing documents and state statute. Hence the need to file the lawsuit to get that declaratory judgment to do just that.

17 years of repeated failures, debating with their attorneys and proving them wrong only to have them quietly agree with my position and finally implement them has been 1 year long.

And the latest act, the street tree resolution that fundamentally changes the terms and conditions of the CC&Rs without putting it to the required vote of the homeowners on the matter is one of three resolutions that just proves to us homeowners that our board of directors are out of control and have decided to deny hearing any reason from any homeowner, to include myself.

I'm sure that "everyone pretty much" is more than the statutory percentage required to shut things down. Good luck with it.

BTW, I think that my original assessment about how long you're likely hang around here is probably accurate.

Time will tell...

If you have to ask that first question, then clearly you just do not "get it."

Let me spell it out for you, if there are 6 board members who are on the same elevator stuck on floor 4 while you are in the Penthouse...all you're going to do is bang your head on the wall trying to free the stuck elevator in order to get it to your floor. It is akin to beating a dead horse. That is why I will not nor ever will be on the board; and it is the EXACT reason a former board member resigned and reached out to me for help and assistance in dealing with the remaining board members.


What part of my OP and subsequent comments did you FAIL to comprehend where I made it crystal clear that I and I alone have been doing everything to fight our HOA, successfully to date, in getting them to follow the governing documents and the law. I do not want someone else to do anything, in fact, people have been emailing and commenting on my FB VOLUNTEERING to help me.

I understand perfectly well what an HOA is and what it is NOT! And based on your comments thus far, it is patently clear I understand it and its function far better than you.

The HOA is a non-profit corporation set up by the Board of Directors, it is NOT me and my neighbors. And it most certainly is "Those group of people" (sic).

And getting rid of the CC&Rs does get rid of the HOA.

Passive aggressive behavior, and where did you matriculate from to get your psychology degree?


What part of the ORS that I cited did you FAIL to comprehend. More proof that it is to you who lacks a clear knowledge and comprehension of what an HOA is and the qualifications of board membership.

I never voted for any of the "volunteers" on our Board, and I doubt many who side with me did either. It is to the few ignorant homeowners, likely neighbors of the current members, who keep voting them in; or worse, there were not enough votes for any one homeowner to replace any of them. Point of FACT, our current President has been in his position for over 10 years. The same guy who wrote a former board of directors, before he was President, accusing them of running the HOA like Nazis.

Since when is following the law annoying? Tell that to some of my fellow homeowners slapped with violation after BS unsubstantiated violation with excessive fees attached to it. I am sure they would like the HOA to follow the law and stop harassing them with what is tantamount to extortion and blackmail with threats of a lien and foreclosure on their home.

Some people are simply not receptive to discussion and are not equipped to make an informed decision, as is clear with our Board.

Had you taken the time to review some of the material with a long list of facts at my blog before shooting your mouth off, you would realize what a fool you are making yourself out to be with this patronizing/condescending display.


What an extremely ignorant comment.

Again, you offer nothing to this discussion but counter productive and counter intuitive asinine statements. This is my last reply to you.

PS. You'd fit in well with our current board members. Same display of ignorance and emotional knee-jerk reactions without knowing even what you are talking about.

Classic projection.

Another one like Melissa doing a disservice to this forum.

It's not about followers, likes or membership to my blog and FB page, but it's all about readership. A concept clearly above your head.
There is also people who like to remain anonymous so I often get emails and private IMs.

The blog and FB (especially) is relatively new.

I have a lot to show for my 17 years fighting the HOs and a lot to show for it with them doing, in the end, what I fought them to do.

Had you been more thorough in reviewing the material at my blog you would have realized that. But no, like Melissa you just had to be patronizing/condescending.

A-Typical.

IMO the "entity" here is the owner. So the phrase "qualified to represent the entity" means qualified to represent the owner, not qualified to represent the HOA. For example if a corporation owns the lot, then the corporation can designate an individual to be a director.

So this does come back to the idea that there are not really any qualifications to be a director other than being a homeowner.

So what's really wrong with Troy's HOA?

1. The development consists of around 200 houses that are part of the HOA and around 100 houses that aren't. In a situation like that, there's always going to be disgruntled people who don't think it's fair. Makes no difference whose on the board, who the management company is, or who the lawyer is. The HOA is mandatory for some and not for others. That's a tough one.

2. The dues are around $16.50 per month. Few people (other than Troy of course) are going to get worked up over 55 cents per day.

3. The total HOA budget is around $38k. Of that, $12k goes to the management company, $6k goes to landscaping, and $6k goes to water. Which leaves around $14k per year for everything else. As much as Troy wants to go on about stuff, there really isn't that much that's subject to change from year to year.

4. Do I think that the allocation of funds is out of whack? Sure. For example, they spend $3,250 a year on printing, postage, and special services (whatever those are). It's a big chunk of the budget, but it's not a lot of dollars.

5. There's a history of incendiary remarks made by Troy, the current board Prez, and at least one prior board Prez. A lot of bad will floating around.

6. I think that people who might step up aren't going to because they don't want to risk being taken to task by self appointed watchdog Troy for every deficiency he chooses to target.

7. I think Troy has an unrealistic expectation of what the DOJ, HUD, and the courts are willing to address.

8. As I said in a prior post Troy, I like to focus on the numbers first. Your numbers tell me a lot about your HOA's problems that have nothing to do with the things that you choose to complain about. That's a problem for me.

9. I'm not going to pass judgment on whether you've made things better or worse in your HOA. Yeah, you've made yourself a lightning rod for dissent, but so what. I expect that you could probably add a lot more value to your HOA than you have so far - but that would take a course correction I think. Not sure your willing to step down from your self-righteous perch and get your hands dirty.

Troy,

Welcome to the forum.

I did take time to look through your blog. I did not read everything but I did look through everything.

Similar to you, I saw issues within my Association and raised the awareness level (and perhaps knowledge level) of the members of my Association by publishing a newsletter. Similar to you, I would cite passages of documents and show what was being done compared to what should have been done. I also provided the basis of my position so the members could independently verify and make their own determination. I believe that by providing this information, it shows transparency and highlights the issue rather than providing opportunities of my positions being dismissed as personality conflicts.

I was surprised that you often cited sections of documents without providing a link or a copy of the full document you were citing. You should not expect that your readers, even if they are members of your Association, know what your governing documents say or what the basis for the issues are. To put it another way, what is common knowledge to those who have gotten involved and researched an issue may not be common knowledge to others. I feel that you do your readers a disservice by not providing a copy of the full document or links to where those documents can be found.

I was also surprised by the entry of 7/16/2014 on your blog. In that entry, you indicated a fellow resident was critical of your attempt to make changes. Per your entry "This homeowner was unjustly critical and unappreciative of my efforts." You didn't mention how you tried to make the individual more knowledgeable. You didn't indicate how important it is to gather support. Instead you thanked those who did support your position and added "to the unappreciative homeowner and any others like minded, if you do not know the full history and facts of what has gone on with our HOA since 1999, please keep your unsubstantiated criticism to yourself. It is of no value to me or the other homeowners in my efforts to take a stand for us all, to include you!" If I were a member of your Association, this would make me apprehensive to support your cause (regardless if that cause helped me or not).

From your postings and blog, I am of the opinion that you are aware that changes require support. You indicated that your intend to file multiple complaints with various government agencies (10/2/14 entry) and imply you are getting ready to take the Association to court (3/17/16 entry). You then potentially alienate members who were undecided. I suspect that once assessments are raised to pay legal costs in response to your actions, your potential alienation of members could be an issue.

I chose to make changes from within my Association by informing members and gather support to replace the board (by not reelecting them). It's unclear if you attempted this first or not. It is my perception, based on your postings here and on your blog, that you are choosing to make changes through the courts. Unfortunately, taking issues to the courts is sometimes the only way to make changes occur. However, it can divide the membership and cause unintended consequences within the Association. An example of an unintended consequence is the lack of volunteers to serve.

It is clear that your Association has had many issues. From improper turnover to embezzlement of funds to individuals with agendas serving on your board. I applaud you for trying to resolve some of those issues or, at least, get the Association headed on the right track.

My suggestion is you may want to change the tone of your message from (what I take as) confrontational to, you are trying to help. Even though I know you are trying to help, that message tends to be blocked by the confrontational tone.

Instead of drawing conclusions (such as saying an individual can no longer be trusted), let the facts speak for themselves and allow your readers to draw their own conclusions.

I do wish you luck.

I hope this helps,

Tim

17 years and just this to show?

Insulting people, making threats and accomplishing very little beneficial to the community.

But you have a blog with little traffic and a Facebook page with little activity.

17 years seems like maybe a little more could have been done. By a REAL WatchDog!

Barking at the moon and patting yourself on the back for a job well done. Just how is this all working for you?

And my guess the DOJ will be less than receptive to your calls for their involvement. And HUD too.

But by all means let us know when you succeed....

17 years and going strong.

*face palm*

I bought my house in 1997, the board was not created until 1999.

I never turned in the "draft" complaint, as I (with the help of several homeowners at a Town Hall meeting) got the Board to realize their mistake at the end of 2014, and everything was going fine until the beginning of this year. Now I (and other homeowners) are back to fighting the HOA/Board yet again, but this time we are working to get rid of it.

You, Melissa, and those commenting in the same patronizing/condescending manner remind me so much of our board members, past and present. And one has to wonder why so many people across the country have problems with our HOAs/Board of Directors.

I am involved in my HOA, I'm making sure they follow he governing documents and the law. I've won every battle to date, and have another to tackle at present.

And you really need to find some new terminology, because your comments all read the same with the same catchy phrases you clearly enjoy using.

While you're picking up a dictionary to find new words to use, click above on "Our Posting Rules," because you are clearly a habitual breaker of those rules.

Thank you for your thoughtful feedback, much appreciated.

Troy

You're most welcome.

Anything else patently obvious I can share? Oh, wait...yes there is.

http://www.hoatalk.com/PostingRules/tabid/71/Default.aspx

Yes I did spend some time going through the materials I could find on your HOA, and especially a budget which can be found at: http://oakknollhomeownersassoc.org/images/uploads/Oak_Knoll_2015_Budget.pdf

Your response IMO is a cop-out.

Let me also remind you that in my first post, I commented on your language/attitude. Your responses was: "Please do not get hung up on semantics, it would be counter productive to a healthy, productive discussion."

Now it appears that you have used my choice of language/attitude to shut down any productive discussion.

Most of what I wrote was merely describing facts and expressing my opinion on those facts.

Your saying that my "conclusions are found wanting" are as dismissive of me as you claim others are being of you.

If you don't want to respond to my full list of issues, then why not start with my first point. It's a point you haven't made. But I think it's at the core of many of your HOA's problems.

Let's discuss it, not by finding fault with individuals or entities - but by getting a better understanding of what those individuals/entities have to cope with if turning around a problem situation was on their agenda.

Funny... When I became President of my HOA I went back to basics. I brought the rules to each meeting. If questioned, we would respond by taking time to refer to the rules before providing an answer. That way we could educate ourselves in the correct response and directly refer to the exact rule wording. If we issued violations, we did the same thing. We would provide the exact quote from the CC&R's or ACC documents they were in violation of.

We didn't need someone to be our "Watchdog". I also find that a HOA that follows Robert Rules of Order, typically aren't acting irrationally. Not every state is required to use that meeting process. It doesn't sound like an out of control board if there are procedures/process in place. You just have to work WITHIN the system...

It seems we have another "Hero" that would rather fall on their sword than run with it. No one needs or wants a hero in their HOA. They want people who participate and doesn't rip it apart for their self serving needs/wants.

That is your subjective unsubstantiated opinion.


Wrong again. I am neither using your choice of language/attitude or being dismissive. Your conclusions were found wanting, that is an observation based in fact. Making an observation does not equate to being dismissive.


What about your first point? You made an observation based on fact. There is nothing to discuss, as you made a valid observation that no one (in my HOA) is in disagreement with.

Ok. If there's no disagreement on my first point - Then let's move on to points 2-9.

Let's have a conversation.

From reading through this, it's really no wonder Troy isn't getting along with his HOA. He wanted advice, he got advice, but wanted to fight those giving the advice. Just the tone put forth on here is enough to put people on the defensive.

Trying to fight from the outside, instead of getting on the Board and correcting things from the inside isn't helping anyone.

It's your time and your money. If you have another 17 years to keep complaining, then do it your way.