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AndyG4 (Florida)
Posts: 6
Posted:
We have a situation where a maintenance crew had to be sent to a property because of failure of the homeowner to maintain. The maintenance was performed but the homeowner is now threatening legal action because the cost to the Association, and therefore passed thru to the homeowner, was extraordinarily high.
What are the responsibilities of the Board regarding fair and usual costs for anything done on a property? This board did not bid the job out and just picked one vendor. The Board didn't even monitor the mount of hours spent to complete the job. Thank you.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
How expensive was the job?

If they put it out to bid, how much do you think it would have cost?

Is this a contractor that they usually use for such services?

Is the cost being billed to the individual unit, or is the association picking up the cost?

Do you have a management company?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Here's my deal with the HOA doing the work necessary to fix or put into compliance. The cost isn't up to the owner. They had their chance to correct it under their own power. It's the HOA's priority whom they hire and what cost. I always say that when you send out that threatening letter to fix to the owner or face lien for the HOA doing it, it's at the HOA's cost. It doesn't have to pick the least expensive if they can afford it.

The owner can threaten a lawsuit all they want. Good for them. Suing your HOA is suing your neighbors and yourself. Your HOA suffered damages which it has a right to collect. The court is on the HOA's side on this one. Your HOA simply counter-sues for it's expenses on this matter if they do sue.

Unfortunately, this owner is fighting a losing battle on this one. Let them and don't feel threatened. They are trying to enforce control they don't have. Don't let them control you. Your HOA can charge whatever it takes to get a job done and collect it. Plus lien for the expense when not paid.

Former HOA President
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AndyG4 on 05/17/2016 10:22 AM
We have a situation where a maintenance crew had to be sent to a property because of failure of the homeowner to maintain. The maintenance was performed but the homeowner is now threatening legal action because the cost to the Association, and therefore passed thru to the homeowner, was extraordinarily high.
What are the responsibilities of the Board regarding fair and usual costs for anything done on a property? This board did not bid the job out and just picked one vendor. The Board didn't even monitor the mount of hours spent to complete the job. Thank you.


I never take threats of "legal action" seriously until a processor server comes knocking on my door. If this homeowner can afford such action why did he not maintain his property? I am sure he had at least some notice that the association was going to act, so why did he not take legal action then? Why is he, and not his attorney, making all this noise?

I know of no laws that would require an association to bid work like this out or to hire the low bidder. This task created a risk for the contractor and the higher the risk the higher the price. I do not see where the homeowner has any defense regarding the costs. He ceded control of the job by neglecting it and has now found that there is a high price to be paid.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Like NpS, I'm curious too, Andy, about the the cost of the job. Meantime, agree with Larry: assuming the violator was notified and was warned that rmeidal action would be take if he didn't comply, th works sounds legit to me (I basically agree with Melissa too, but she wandered off topic...)
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Andy,

There are so many unanswered questions in what you provided.

Are you in a condo or single family home?
What was the maintenance issue?
How many notices were sent to the owner and over what time frame?
Was the maintenance issue a safety issue or an eyesore (aesthetic) issue?
Were lawyers involved at any time, is so when?
How long did the job take (hours, days)?
Did the owner reply to notices or request meetings with the board prior to repairs being performed?

I know that my Association was advised not to enter property without a court order unless it's a safety issue.
AndyG4 (Florida)
Posts: 6
Posted:
The job cost three thousand dollars. If it was bid out I am sure it would have cost one-third the amount. The amount of hours claimed for the job are extraordinary; calculating the time he was seen at the site does not equal the hours charged on the invoice. This contractor is not a usual contractor for this type of maintenance; another long-standing group is the usual. The vendor was told to bill the Association so that they could in turn bill the homeowner, probably to streamline any legal action by the Association. The Association could easily put a lien on the property if not paid. The property owner is elderly and probably not able to pay without hardship. The HOA is run by volunteers who place their name in contention for the position open/vacated and then is elected at the annual meeting. Thank you.
AndyG4 (Florida)
Posts: 6
Posted:
Your comments are appreciated. The elderly homeowner cannot pay without hardship; the cost was really extraordinary. I personally feel that the contractor padded his invoice to the max because the HOA wasn't going to take the side of the homeowner. Don't you think the board should have a fundamental moral obligation to "right conduct" concerning the homeowner, albeit in light of the fact that the homeowner had violated one of the bylaws ? Or at the bare minimum I agree that the homeowner has no control over the matter but what about doing what is right instead of mindlessly flexing muscle just because HOA can ? I personally am having a difficult time lending my support to the other members of the board. I don't think that the board feels threatened. In fact, I feel that the board is not feeling anything at all including compassion. What about firm but fair rule ? I certainly don't think that would be a sign of weakness. Thank you
AndyG4 (Florida)
Posts: 6
Posted:
In all fairness the cost of the job was more than triple what it should have been. Not only is the homeowner going to suffer but I am afraid that we are sending the wrong message as a Board and we will lose credibility. I also will have a hard time voting with the other board members because I feel that we have an ethical obligation to do what is right. I don't know how that other board members feel about what has transpired. I'm almost afraid to be disappointed by their lack of compassion so I'm not asking. That's why I turned to this forum for some help. Thank you
AndyG4 (Florida)
Posts: 6
Posted:
Sorry that my story was a bit incomplete. The development consists of single family homes. The maintenance issue was purely aesthetic because there were major health issues within the homeowners family the home was neglected. No lawyers were involved other than the usual letter sent from the Association's lawyer to the homeowner. To my knowledge the homeowner did not request a meeting with the Board prior to the contractor doing his thing. Thank you
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Andy,

Thanks for the the clarifications.

I'm not sure where you fit in with this issue. Are you on the Board or related to the homeowner?

Yes, I agree that the Board had a duty to bid the work out.
I suspect many contractors would refuse the work because they didn't have the owners permission to enter the property (i.e. trespassing).

Since the work is now done, it's up to the homeowner to contest the charges as unreasonable.
This would likely take a court battle.

It's a shame that the Board didn't try to find out what the underlying issue was.
It's a shame that the homeowner didn't try to work with the board when the first notices went out.
It's a shame that neighbors, friends or family didn't offer to do the cosmetic work

The whole thing could have been avoided.

Unfortunately, the ball is now in the homeowners court.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AndyG4 on 05/17/2016 5:58 PM
The elderly homeowner cannot pay without hardship; the cost was really extraordinary. I personally feel that the contractor padded his invoice to the max because the HOA wasn't going to take the side of the homeowner. Don't you think the board should have a fundamental moral obligation to "right conduct" concerning the homeowner, albeit in light of the fact that the homeowner had violated one of the bylaws ? Or at the bare minimum I agree that the homeowner has no control over the matter but what about doing what is right instead of mindlessly flexing muscle just because HOA can ? I personally am having a difficult time lending my support to the other members of the board. I don't think that the board feels threatened. In fact, I feel that the board is not feeling anything at all including compassion. What about firm but fair rule ? I certainly don't think that would be a sign of weakness. Thank you


Andy,

Home ownership is not for everyone. One of the problems with life is that we age and our houses age. When an aging house needs work an aging homeowner may not be able to perform the physical labor required or he may not be able to afford to pay others to do the work for him. I saw this with my own parents 20 years ago and I see it begin to happen with my own home.

While I congratulate you on your compassion, the reality is that it is time for this old buzzard to move on. If possible, find this owner's family and explain what has happened. In my own extended family I found that it usually takes a crisis of some sort to bring the adult children to realize that it is time for them to step in.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 05/17/2016 6:49 PM
Yes, I agree that the Board had a duty to bid the work out.
I suspect many contractors would refuse the work because they didn't have the owners permission to enter the property (i.e. trespassing).

Tim may have uncovered the reason why cost was so high.

IMO, worth investigating further.

I would want to know if HOA has taken similar action against other homeowners. Is there any reason why they might have singled out this one? Are there other houses with similar deficiencies that weren't corrected?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
ND (PA)
Posts: 792
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AndyG4 on 05/17/2016 5:40 PM
The job cost three thousand dollars. If it was bid out I am sure it would have cost one-third the amount. The amount of hours claimed for the job are extraordinary; calculating the time he was seen at the site does not equal the hours charged on the invoice.

As already mentioned there were much better, more compassionate, more helpful ways to go about this; however, the Board probably had the right to hire a contractor and no real requirement to bid the job out. It's not good practice, but it's one way to operate.

However, where I strongly disagree with a lot of what is being said is that since this was an association-hired contractor, it is an inherent responsibility of the association (the Board) to ensure that the amount charged is appropriate for the work that was done. The Board cannot simply hire a contractor and then without any sort of review or scrutiny just blindly pass the invoice on to the homeowner. What checks and balances exist to prevent exactly what's happened here . . . for the contractor to overcharge intentionally because nobody is going to question it.

The OP indicated that the hours charged exceeded the time spent on site. With that evidence, the association/Board needs to question the contractor on the invoice prior to passing the buck to the homeowner. In my opinion, it's their responsibility to do so since they hired the contractor, knew when they would be on-site doing the work, and provided any and all direction to the contractor. At this point, the homeowner was an unwilling, uninformed, unknowledgeable participant in the whole situation that was not given the opportunity to do the verification themselves.

I'm not sure how long this has been going on, but it may still be appropriate for the association/Board to question the contractor and attempt to get the invoice more in line with where it should be. This would be the proper, ethical, and compassionate way to operate. However, if the Board is intent on sticking it to an elderly, in-need homeowner and proving some point, then a court battle is the only way to move forward and will be a huge, unnecessary expense to everyone involved.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ND on 05/18/2016 5:39 AM
At this point, the homeowner was an unwilling, uninformed, unknowledgeable participant in the whole situation that was not given the opportunity to do the verification themselves.

1. We have no idea what communications occurred between homeowner and HOA.
2. We shouldn't be overly biased by what the OP says. OP likely to have less than complete info since not involved directly.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AndyG4 on 05/17/2016 5:40 PM
The job cost three thousand dollars. If it was bid out I am sure it would have cost one-third the amount. . . This contractor is not a usual contractor for this type of maintenance; another long-standing group is the usual.


Hiring a contractor who is willing to go onto a property against the wishes of a homeowner is not going to be easy. The pool of available contractors will drop markedly when you inform them that the association is acting against the wishes of the homeowner. Maybe this is why your usual contractor opted out. A job with a hostile property owner is high-risk for the contractor; you are going to pay through the nose for his work. Your association was lucky to find someone - anyone - willing to do the work.

Quote:

The amount of hours claimed for the job are extraordinary; calculating the time he was seen at the site does not equal the hours charged on the invoice.


Contractors routinely charge for work not done on site. They charge for their time getting supplies, for example. If it would have been me, I would have charged you for all future hours I expect to spend in court.

Quote:

The vendor was told to bill the Association so that they could in turn bill the homeowner, probably to streamline any legal action by the Association. The Association could easily put a lien on the property if not paid.


The entity requesting the work is the one who is going to pay. No contractor is going to accept the job if he is then also required to collect from the hostile homeowner. This is the association's battle, not the contractor's.

Yes, the association could put a lien on the property if the work is not paid for. The homeowner agreed to that when he purchased the property. He has no cause to object now.

Quote:

The property owner is elderly and probably not able to pay without hardship.


As I said previously, if the homeowner is unable physically or financially to maintain his home it is time for him to move on.

AndyG4 (Florida)
Posts: 6
Posted:
Thank you very much for your comments. I am a fairly new member of the Board; about 18 mos. They were down to only 2 members & they were becoming exhausted so asked for volunteers so a few of us stepped up. I just didn't think a prerequisite was being brutal or having a desire to punish.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AndyG4 on 05/18/2016 8:28 AM
Thank you very much for your comments. I am a fairly new member of the Board; about 18 mos. They were down to only 2 members & they were becoming exhausted so asked for volunteers so a few of us stepped up. I just didn't think a prerequisite was being brutal or having a desire to punish.

Good that you stepped up.
Agree that brutality and desire to punish are not appropriate motivations.
Need to get more people who think like you to volunteer.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
TroyS2 (Oregon)
Posts: 610
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 05/17/2016 12:20 PM
Here's my deal with the HOA doing the work necessary to fix or put into compliance. The cost isn't up to the owner. They had their chance to correct it under their own power. It's the HOA's priority whom they hire and what cost. I always say that when you send out that threatening letter to fix to the owner or face lien for the HOA doing it, it's at the HOA's cost. It doesn't have to pick the least expensive if they can afford it.

"It's the HOA's priority (sic) whom they hire and what cost."

Are you kidding me? The HOA has a fiduciary duty act in the best interest of the homeowner(s), NOT the HOA's! If this HOA did not get bids and choose the lower bid, that is on them and it is a breach of their fiduciary duties.

Clearly you prefer the cutthroat approach of threatening homeowners into action than working with them to resolve an issue.

Quote:
The owner can threaten a lawsuit all they want. Good for them. Suing your HOA is suing your neighbors and yourself.

No, it is not suing the neighbors and/or oneself. You need to stop beating that broken drum.

Quote:
Your HOA suffered damages which it has a right to collect. The court is on the HOA's side on this one.

Was there a lawsuit? Are a fortune teller now that you know for an absolute fact that the "court is on the HOA's side on this one"?

Quote:
Your HOA simply counter-sues for it's expenses on this matter if they do sue.

Unfortunately, this owner is fighting a losing battle on this one. Let them and don't feel threatened. They are trying to enforce control they don't have. Don't let them control you. Your HOA can charge whatever it takes to get a job done and collect it. Plus lien for the expense when not paid.

HOA's are NOT untouchable, and they are NOT always in the correct position. There are a number of lawsuits that HOAs have lost across the country.

And HOAs simply CANNOT charge "whatever it takes to get a job done and collect it." There are standards of reasonableness, performance of contract, and strict fiduciary duties that board members MUST follow under the governing documents and a states statutory law of planned communities.

You really need to learn more about what an HOA is, what its function is, and how it is governed as well as the fiduciary responsibilities of the board members that must be met, otherwise they can be and will be held liable for their illicit actions.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Troy,

Many on this site disagree at times. However, we do try to keep from personal attacks.

I do have a few disagreements with some of the statements in your recent posting:

Quote:
Posted By TroyS2 on 05/18/2016 6:21 PM
Posted By MelissaP1 on 05/17/2016 12:20 PM
Here's my deal with the HOA doing the work necessary to fix or put into compliance. The cost isn't up to the owner. They had their chance to correct it under their own power. It's the HOA's priority whom they hire and what cost. I always say that when you send out that threatening letter to fix to the owner or face lien for the HOA doing it, it's at the HOA's cost. It doesn't have to pick the least expensive if they can afford it.


"It's the HOA's priority (sic) whom they hire and what cost."

Are you kidding me? The HOA has a fiduciary duty act in the best interest of the homeowner(s), NOT the HOA's! If this HOA did not get bids and choose the lower bid, that is on them and it is a breach of their fiduciary duties.

I disagree. The Board does have a fiduciary duty to the membership as a whole, not to any individual member.

Although everyone agrees that things might have been enforced differently, the Board chose to enforce the covenants in order to honor their duty to the membership as a whole.

Quote:
Posted By TroyS2 on 05/18/2016 6:21 PM

The owner can threaten a lawsuit all they want. Good for them. Suing your HOA is suing your neighbors and yourself.


No, it is not suing the neighbors and/or oneself. You need to stop beating that broken drum.



Actually, Melissa isn't incorrect here.

The funds an Association uses to pay to defend legal actions typically comes from the membership. Even if there is insurance, the insurance may not kick in until after the case is resolved or may not cover the situation at all. If assessments need to be increased to pay for that defense, the membership (your neighbors and yourself) will need to pony up.

Additionally, if the Association does not have corporate status (no corporate shield), you are literally taking action against your neighbors (as the entire membership would likely be identified in any legal action).

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
“Extraordinary high” to you may be a different story to someone else. Same thing with “fair and usual costs”. That being said, most boards do bid out certain work if it’ll exceed a certain amount and insist on an itemized invoice/contract so they’ll know exactly where the money went.

As for legal action, you’ll probably have to wait to be served and go on from there. Otherwise, you might want to look into alternative dispute resolution – it can be cheaper than court and generally both sides agree in advance to comply with the mediator’s decision.

However this issues is resolved (you may end up filing a lien on the property), it would be helpful for your board to develop a policy on this issue and ask homeowners for their input – under what circumstances will the board step in on repair issues and when will legal action be taken? What is expected of the homeowner and what would their appeal rights be?

There could be some history with this homeowner, so I hope you’ve talked to previous board members and reviewed the minutes to see what it is. You didn’t answer all of Tim’s questions and they can turn this issue on its head so once again: what WAS the maintenance issue? How many notices were sent to the owner? Did the owner ever approach the board and explain why the maintenance wasn’t being done? Were the repairs necessary because a health/safety issue arose and it threatened nearby homeowners? That might explain why there was no time to get a bid and the final cost. If there was a health/safety issue, did anyone consider referring the matter to the local health department to see if they could step in?

As others have said, I do see areas where the Board could have handled this differently, but I agree with Melissa that the homeowner could have prevented all by simply maintaining the property. If there was an issue with time, cost, etc., he/she should have gone to the board where a solution could have worked been worked out. Maybe he could have done the work in increments making it easier to pay. Or someone could have checked if there are non-profit organizations that provide repair services to senior citizens for free or at a reduced rate based on income.

Which is why I also agree with Larry – it can be tough for people to admit homeownership has become too much for them and they need to look into alternatives. However if you fail to face reality in all its dirty, you may be putting yourself at bigger risk to lose much more.


If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

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