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GreggK2 (Kansas)
Posts: 86
Posted:
This is almost comical. Myself, and 4 others, took over the BOD last year from the outsourced management company the HOA once employed. Because we had to issue a fine against a homeowner this year, that homeowner (we found this out tonight) is walking around and trying to get a petition signed to have me removed as the president. Honestly, it does not bother me. This is a thankless job that offers no compensation but I was doing it to make improvements in the HOA. Now, I am still unsure if a petition could have me removed (and am confident not enough people would sign it anyway) but if I were removed, the 4 other board members have indicated they would resign.

This would mean no more board so who steps in and takes over? I certainly do not want to turn over access of our bank accounts to the disgruntled homeowner that has started this whole thing.

Your thoughts?
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Gregg, read your bylaws! They should say how an officer is removed. Generally it only is by the Board since the Board appoints officers. A president, of course, is an officer.

Directors, and I assume you're a director too, if elected by the Owners, can only be removed by them via a recall election. So, again, read your documents, probably your Bylaws to learn the procedures to conduct a recall election. It might be very complicated and KS probably has its own state laws about it. If Mr. Nastypants doesn't do the procedures exactly right, you cannot be removed as a director.

It's great that the rest of the Board supports you. You all should just continue doing the business of your HOA and ignore Mr. NP for now.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Gregg,

First, if the petition were written that you should be removed as president, that petition would only be a recommendation. Officers (Pres, VP, etc.), are appointed by the Board and serve at the pleasure of the Board. Therefore, the membership has zero authority to remove you as President.

If the individual wants to remove you as Director, they would have to follow the requirments within your governing documents and applicable laws for a recall. Typically, this requires a petition to call a special meeting of the membership for the purpose of a recall. If the petition does not say those words, the petition might be considered invalid. A vote at the special meeting would determine the outcome of the recall.

If the recall is successful, there should be an immediate election to elect someone to serve the remainder of your term. If there are no candidates, then the Board may appoint whom they desire to fill the remainder of the term (even you, but I wouldn't recommend it).

If the entire Board resigns, prior to resigning, they should hold a special meeting of the membership for an election to fill the remaining seats OR, appoint others to fill them effective the date of the resignation.

If nobody steps up to serve and everyone resigns, the last act of the Board should be to petition the court to have the Association placed into receivership (something I do not recommend unless absolutely necessary).

My suggestion is to publish an article in your newsletter on what the Board has accomplished to date. Include the enforcement of covenants (but do not mention names). This way, the membership can make an informed choice (as they would have heard both sides). I believe that an informed choice is often the right choice (even if it's not the outcome you wanted).

Hope this helps,

Tim
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Gregg,

My understanding of corporate law is that the last guy left on the board cannot resign. He retains his position on the board until he can find a replacement, whom he may then appoint. The newly-appointed board member then may begin the process of appointing new board members. All of the board members would then be required to seek election at the next annual member meeting.

Personally, I would not sweat the recall. The angry owner seems to not have a good handle on the process so his chance of success is not good.

GreggK2 (Kansas)
Posts: 86
Posted:
I appreciate the words of encouragement. I have heard back from a few home owners and so far, everyone seems very happy with our performance. I also believe the person floating the petition around stopped after being turned away by a few homes. Regardless, we did let the HOA attorney know about it and I'm sure he will address their attorney tomorrow. If anything, they've just added even more onto their existing legal bill with us.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Something like this happened to me in my HOA. I call it the "Bigger Fish". There's always a "Bigger Fish" who wants to eat you. Your job is to make/create the bigger fish. That way you can walk away one day and put things in someone else's hands you would want. Or face a mutiny and the board...

My last year as President I had 7 board members include 4 officer positions... (President, Vice, Secretary, and Treasurer). The end of that year it was just me and the Vice-President. I had even moved out of the HOA and the Vice-President was behind in dues for months. Our HOA documents did not allow us to appoint new board members and had to wait till annual elections.

Of course I was "voted" out of office by the new board by the very person I was protecting the HOA from. He was a former president who was a scumbag con-artist. Reason he wanted me out is that I basically fired him and did not fall for his crap. I had already resigned anyways due to the fact I moved out. (My HOA house I turned rental and I moved to a non-HOA house to flip next neighborhood over).I still remained a board member (voted in)to help with the transition.

The New board basically were a group of people that were snowed by the ex-President. They lied about me, spent our money, and did an illegal special assessment. It took about 6 months before they crawled back to my door for apologies and advice. My thoughts? "Well you wanted to be the Bigger Fish... Now swim!!!"

Basically if they want to remove the board, then they also have to have replacements. Short sighted people won't win if they don't know that. It's a be careful what you wish for situation in some cases. Others it can be a big blessing. Your HOA members will decide...

Former HOA President
AugustinD
Posts: 10
Posted:
GreggK2, this occurred at my former HOA some years ago. All board members resigned. Gov docs often do not treat this. But generally speaking: At this point one person has to step up and slowly re-build the board via her or his appointments. Alternatively the HOA can effectively stagnate, but legally must remain in existence, until a HOA member asks the court to appoint an administrator to run the HOA per the gov docs. The latter is extremely expensive to the HOA. Try to avoid this at all costs. As long as there is one volunteer member willing to run the joint, this is legally defensible, with some caveats.

Years later an attorney for the HOA confirmed this was the correct process to follow. Should some annoying member take the lack of a full slate of board members to court, then the, "We're doing the best we can" defense is employed. My understanding is the courts understand and will not hold anyone liable during the time of transition.

I think there is an argument that the board members have a fiduciary duty to make at least a little effort to try and find someone to fill the positions they soon plan to resign.

Do ask your question at an online legal forum where some bona fide attorneys, acting pro bono, and others with specific experience in matters like yours, participate. False information about the law is routinely posted here at hoatalk.com .
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 05/06/2016 8:36 AM
My understanding is the courts understand and will not hold anyone liable during the time of transition.
...

False information about the law is routinely posted here at hoatalk.com .

Does the "false information about the law" that you allege in your second statement apply to your interpretation of the courts' application of the law in your first statement?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 05/06/2016 8:36 AM
Do ask your question at an online legal forum where some bona fide attorneys, acting pro bono, and others with specific experience in matters like yours, participate.


Where might one find such a forum and how do you know whether you are dealing with a bona fide attorney?

"The problem with the Internet is that people are not always who they claim to be." Abraham Lincoln

Quote:

False information about the law is routinely posted here at hoatalk.com .


No one on this forum claims to be an attorney. Any responsible board member would seek out the advice of an attorney (a real one) before taking action. This forum merely suggests what may or may not be possible based on the experiences of its members.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LarryB13 on 05/06/2016 12:34 PM
"The problem with the Internet is that people are not always who they claim to be." Abraham Lincoln

George Washington said it first.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NpS on 05/06/2016 12:50 PM
Posted By LarryB13 on 05/06/2016 12:34 PM
"The problem with the Internet is that people are not always who they claim to be." Abraham Lincoln

George Washington said it first.

Yes, but he was quoting Aristotle.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LarryB13 on 05/06/2016 1:56 PM
Posted By NpS on 05/06/2016 12:50 PM
Posted By LarryB13 on 05/06/2016 12:34 PM
"The problem with the Internet is that people are not always who they claim to be." Abraham Lincoln

George Washington said it first.


Yes, but he was quoting Aristotle.

Toga party anyone?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
AugustinD
Posts: 10
Posted:
Google for many such forums. The real attorneys give identifying information such as using email addresses consistent with their law firm web site, which can further be confirmed with various online registries of attorneys. Most importantly, it's common for several lawyers to participate. In many situations, they give the same answer.

NpS, you are welcome to disagree with anything anyone posts here. I encourage you to encourage others to check out my or anyone's legal suggestions at forums where attorneys participate pro bono.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 05/06/2016 3:13 PM
NpS, you are welcome to disagree with anything anyone posts here. I encourage you to encourage others to check out my or anyone's legal suggestions at forums where attorneys participate pro bono.

1. Augustin, you gave your legal interpretation, and then you said that people shouldn't trust legal interpretations that are posted here. I asked if your warning applied to your own posting. You didn't respond.

2. You said that a lawyer violates the rules of professional conduct if he writes a letter to an unrepresented person on lawfirm stationery and signs it. I asked you to provide the specific rule of professional conduct that you thought was violated. You didn't respond.

3. You recommend that I go to some other forum to check out whether your postings are valid. Personally, I think that's discourteous. I go to great lengths sometimes to research an issue that someone raises here. I'll look up a statute or a case, and report back what I find. People can accept or reject what I say. That's their choice. Sometimes I'm spot on. Sometimes I miss. But I've never said to anyone: "There are places out there where you can find better answers." IMO, that's a worthless statement.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
AugustinD
Posts: 10
Posted:
NpS, 1. I thought my response was clear that my warning applies to my own statements about the law. 2. (a) This is not what I said; and (b) see my other post recently where I do the work I really expect you should have done when I said go see the Rules of Professional Conduct 3. I think it's discourteous of you not to support people getting actual attorneys' viewpoints.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 05/06/2016 4:52 PM
NpS, 1. I thought my response was clear that my warning applies to my own statements about the law. 2. (a) This is not what I said; and (b) see my other post recently where I do the work I really expect you should have done when I said go see the Rules of Professional Conduct 3. I think it's discourteous of you not to support people getting actual attorneys' viewpoints.

3. Never recommended against getting actual legal advice.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NpS on 05/06/2016 4:58 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 05/06/2016 4:52 PM
NpS, 1. I thought my response was clear that my warning applies to my own statements about the law. 2. (a) This is not what I said; and (b) see my other post recently where I do the work I really expect you should have done when I said go see the Rules of Professional Conduct 3. I think it's discourteous of you not to support people getting actual attorneys' viewpoints.

3. Never recommended against getting actual legal advice.

AugustinD,

If you read most of the threads on this forum you will find that many seeking help are aware that they need the services of an attorney but for various reasons refuse to engage one. The most common excuse being "We can't afford it." Obtaining legal advice is a necessary and normal expense for any corporation and raising the funds to pay for the operation of the corporation is the job of the Board of Directors. Whenever a director cries that they cannot afford to hire an attorney my first question is always, "Whose fault is that?"

As to your statements about websites where lawyers work "pro bono," you wrote, "The real attorneys give identifying information such as using email addresses consistent with their law firm web site." The State Bar of Arizona cautions the public against contacting lawyers by email and providing details as the attorneys may already have a conflict of interest in taking on a new client. In addition, pro bono usually means working for individual clients who otherwise cannot afford counsel or, in some cases, charities. An HOA is not a needy individual nor is it a charity. You were the one claiming that such sites exist yet you refuse to provide any URL's. If any such site exists, it is most likely to be a scam.

AugustinD
Posts: 10
Posted:
Larry, emails are not exchanged. Posts are made. Also I am not talking about HOA directors getting legal advice from these sites. The HOA Directors have at their disposal and per votes of the majority, a corporation attorney. Googling shows many sites. I have a favorite one but do not care to share it except by instant message, if instant message exists here at hoatalk.com.

Regardless, you are welcome to give whatever advice to whomever here. I will continue to steer people towards various free legal aid services.
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NpS on 05/06/2016 10:11 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 05/06/2016 8:36 AM
My understanding is the courts understand and will not hold anyone liable during the time of transition.
...

False information about the law is routinely posted here at hoatalk.com .

Does the "false information about the law" that you allege in your second statement apply to your interpretation of the courts' application of the law in your first statement?

You are in rare form
RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By n/a on 05/06/2016 8:36 AM
GreggK2, this occurred at my former HOA some years ago. All board members resigned. Gov docs often do not treat this. But generally speaking: At this point one person has to step up and slowly re-build the board via her or his appointments.

My POA just had 3 of 5 board members resign. Our bylaws state the Board must have at least three board members. Therefore per our bylaws the remaining two would not be a Board. The Bylaws also state the Board appoints replacement for any board members that leave, but again our bylaws state the Board has to be at least three members, so with only 2, there would be no board to appoint replacement.

Not sure what happens.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
The two remaining are the Board. They should immediately appoint additional board members, and continue to serve the community.

Don’t make it hard - there is no other solution as being a Board member is voluntary.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
I don't know how it works in Texas, but in Florida this would be simple, by statute.

FS 720.306(9)(c)

"Unless otherwise provided in the bylaws, any vacancy occurring on the board before the expiration of a term may be filled by an affirmative vote of the majority of the remaining directors, even if the remaining directors constitute less than a quorum, or by the sole remaining director. In the alternative, a board may hold an election to fill the vacancy, in which case the election procedures must conform to the requirements of the governing documents."

"... even if the remaining directors constitute less than a quorum, or by the sole remaining director." Even if there's only one board member left, a board may re-constitute itself by appointing replacement directors until there's enough for a quorum.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
CA corporations code is the same or similar to FL's 720.
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
LOL .. apparently the owner had not looked at your State Statutes if you are an anctual HOA as you stated and not condominium:

58-4619. Same; board of directors; removal. (a) Unit owners present in person, by proxy, or by absentee ballot at any meeting of the unit owners at which a quorum is present, may remove any member of the board of directors and any officer elected by the unit owners, with or without cause, if the number of votes cast in favor of removal exceeds the number of votes cast in opposition to removal, but:
(1) A member appointed by the declarant may not be removed by a unit owner vote during the period of declarant control;
(2) if a member may be elected or appointed pursuant to the declaration by persons other than the declarant or the unit owners, that member may be removed only by the person that elected or appointed that member; and
(3) the unit owners may not consider whether to remove a member of the board of directors or an officer elected by the unit owners at a meeting of the unit owners unless that subject was listed in the notice of the meeting.
(b) At any meeting at which a vote to remove a member of the board of directors or an officer is to be taken, the member or officer being considered for removal must have a reasonable opportunity to speak before the vote.
(c) This section shall take effect on and after January 1, 2011.

OH ... and note your State Statutes DO NOT defer to ANY of your Governing Documents.

Sorry ... a petition does not work for HOA. Any removal must be done at a proper meeting.
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RogerJ1 on 03/04/2020 3:53 PM

My POA just had 3 of 5 board members resign. Our bylaws state the Board must have at least three board members. Therefore per our bylaws the remaining two would not be a Board. The Bylaws also state the Board appoints replacement for any board members that leave, but again our bylaws state the Board has to be at least three members, so with only 2, there would be no board to appoint replacement.

Not sure what happens.


LOL ... Bet if you check with your State HOA or Non-Profit Corporation laws that the Two BOD Members now get to “appoint” three members to the BOD of Directorrs of their own choosing until your next annual meeting and election. You need to understand your State Laws can supersede your CCR’s or Bylaws. Do you really think States under their laws would leave HOA’s so vulnerable??? Too funny ...
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
This thread is almost 4 years old.

Best to start a new thread if there are new issues.
MarshallT (New York)
Posts: 414
Posted:
That's a wise move on your part. Glad to hear the situation has not been escalated.

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