Master Policy Renewal & Plumbing Repairs

Started by JoshuaL • 10 replies • 1519 views

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JoshuaL (California)
Posts: 11

Posted:

I'm an hoa board member.

Our building has been plagued with leaking pipe problems and overflow problems from bottom units that has caused damage in the 10's of thousands of dollars. Recently we fulfilled a claim to a unit (this unit has had claims in the past for similar water damage) for around 30,000.

Particularly one unit in general, but recently we've had another unit with an overflow issue resulting from sludge being pushed into their units line from hydrojetting, which caused 16,000...

Now our insurance company (traveler's) says they will not be renewing our policy unless we "repair the plumbing".

We've engaged a plumbing architect to interface with the insurance company to see what "repairs" entail and we are still waiting to hear back.

I've been told that there is no other insurer that will quote us due to the # of claims we have made in recent years.

It is mid April now, the policy is up in June. I know what would happen with no master policy. Possibly foreclosures as banks demand their note in full, and no one able to sell or buy.

I'm not sure what else I should be doing to try my utmost to ensure our policy is maintained. We've discussed with homeowners the severity of the situation and the likelihood that an emergency assessment will be in the works depending on the costs of plumbing repairs... but I'm wondering if I should be seeking multiple insurer's and/or plumbing associations or even architects/engineers.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Joshua,

Welcome to the forum.

Are you working with a management company or are you self-managed? Anyway this a condo conversion?

Are all the plumbing issue HOA related (responsible) or are some the responsibility of the homeowner?

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

You should be looking at multiple insurance companies (as many as possible) and brace yourself for really high premiums because of your claims history. As far as your current insurance is concerned, the only thing I can think of that might save it is to increase the deductible by a lot. That may buy you some time until you can find out what the problem is and get it fixed before going with another company.

Getting an engineer may also be a good idea - if you've had pipe problems where the repairs exceed $10K, there have to be some underlying problems that perhaps haven't been discovered or weren't addressed at all or not as completely as they should have been. What caused the previous problems and did anyone ask those plumbers what should be done to prevent them? If so, what happened with that information?

Richard also raised an important question - is the association responsible for all the plumbing? If any of this is homeowner responsibility, you'll need to go after them for that portion of the repair costs.

You may also need to look at your most recent reserve study - if you don't have one, you'll need to get one because your budget will need to ensure reserves are being funded properly for future replacement of the pipes (depending on the age of your building, perhaps all of it will need to be replaced). This will also mean assessment increases - which you'll have to do anyway to cover the insurance. If you haven't done so already, have a chat with your homeowners to keep them informed of what's going on and what the board is doing to address it.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

JoshuaL (California)
Posts: 11

Posted:

We do have an association.

I have been on the board (1st time ever) and have been woefully ignorant of the reserve amount. However, since I've been on the board, we have seen an ever increasing reserve amount, but we're still shy about 50k. We have about 17k.

The first time we had these backup issues (still not sure about leaks. We've been its hard to detect leaks when it's not raining? Live in california... leaks usually happen in intermittent heavy rains) may have been caused from lack of hydrojetting. So I had hydrojetting done. With that, it caused another liability claim!

I took the advice of the plumbers and had services performed which exasperated our claim issues...

I've been told that the most recent claim issue was within the responsibility of the homeowner regardless of the hydrojetting as the gunk was in there section of pipe responsible to them when the issue occured? However, they filed a claim with their insurance that is now seeking subrogation.

The association is only responsible for main lines pipes that service units, but once the pipe leaves the main line, it is the homeowners responsibility.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

How old is this property?

How many units make up this property?

When was the first time you had drain problems?

What has the plumber told you was in fact the problem?

Did you have the pipes inspected by camera?

Is this a problem with the main or the pipes dropping into the main from each unit?

How many units make up the building with the problem? Is there an upstairs and downstairs separate unit?

On what basis and for what reason was the plumber recommending have the lines hydro jetted?

Did he run a snake through the lines first?

And as to the unit with the most common problem where is that unit located in the building?

First floor middle of building or on the end of the building? And how many units are there on the first floor?

Just what work is the insurance company requiring? Do you have a basement that allows you access to the drain lines?

First order of business determine what the issue is exactly and how to resolve it once and for all. Then determine who covers the costs.

Are you now using the same plumber?

JoshuaL (California)
Posts: 11

Posted:

~33-39 units (I believe 39, 13 per floor, 3 floors)

We've had occasional drain problems over the years. When I first moved in a unit's old owner told me of the issues they had with the unit and backups. They moved because of it. As far as I know, no one identified what was the cause of backups other than the main line getting clogged (of which I recommended hydrojetting as a solution). Then even after we did a hydrojetting (though it had been a while), this same unit had a backup, and the owner's didn't occupy the unit, which resulted in extensive damage. The main water issues are usually backups from the 1st floor due to common line being clogged. Snaking was a temporary fix until it was suggested we do hydrojetting. Sometimes there is rain water issues from top down that affected water seepage from the wall. We believe this may be because of window trim needing to be replaced

Recently garage pipes were replaced (units sit ontop of agove ground garage). The city also replaced major pipes in the streets recently.

What has the plumber told you was in fact the problem?

common line clogged

Did you have the pipes inspected by camera?

No

Is this a problem with the main or the pipes dropping into the main from each unit?

I believe main pipe below the unit.

How old is this property?

How many units make up this property?

When was the first time you had drain problems?

What has the plumber told you was in fact the problem?

Did you have the pipes inspected by camera?

Is this a problem with the main or the pipes dropping into the main from each unit?

How many units make up the building with the problem? Is there an upstairs and downstairs separate unit?

generally 1 or 2.

On what basis and for what reason was the plumber recommending have the lines hydro jetted?

Clogged mainlines

Did he run a snake through the lines first?

Yes

And as to the unit with the most common problem where is that unit located in the building?

Center, courtyard structure. So there is a middle unit.

Just what work is the insurance company requiring? Do you have a basement that allows you access to the drain lines?
Garage so yeah? Insurance company is requiring us to identify the source of issues caused with this center unit and to determine the health of the pipes in the building overall.

How old is this property?

How many units make up this property?

When was the first time you had drain problems?

What has the plumber told you was in fact the problem?

Did you have the pipes inspected by camera?

Is this a problem with the main or the pipes dropping into the main from each unit?

How many units make up the building with the problem? Is there an upstairs and downstairs separate unit?

On what basis and for what reason was the plumber recommending have the lines hydro jetted?

Did he run a snake through the lines first?

And as to the unit with the most common problem where is that unit located in the building?

First floor middle of building or on the end of the building? And how many units are there on the first floor?

Just what work is the insurance company requiring? Do you have a basement that allows you access to the drain lines?

First order of business determine what the issue is exactly and how to resolve it once and for all. Then determine who covers the costs.

Are you now using the same plumber?

We've recently switched to a different plumber maybe in the past year or two. My concern was if we relied on a business that hasn't really been resolving long term issues, why would we rely on them again.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Sounds like the Association needs to run a camera through the main lines and actually lay eyes on issue.

JoshuaL (California)
Posts: 11

Posted:

Thank you very much.

I think I have a plan of attack now. To run camera's through all the common area pipes feeding the first floor units and request replacements as needed

JoshuaL (California)
Posts: 11

Posted:

great great great news.

I reached out to someone at corporate of traveler's who I had spoken with in the past recently and explained our situation to her. She informed me that we are not actually in danger of cancellation. She spoke with our property manager directly and explained that our policy was set to renew thursday.

So the adjuster who spoke with us must have been speaking off the cuff and not in an authoritative capacity.

However, we are now taking the advice of everyone involved and intend on addressing the concerns which were raised. However, there is no fear of our master policy being pulled.

Thank you for the advice. We are getting a plumbing engineer and electrical engineer to look at our bldg and recommend repairs which we will submit to traveler's who will put it on file.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Several things seem to make no sense to me.

You authorized hydro jetting of water drain lines based on what? Without a visual inspection how did you determine that' was needed?

The hydro jetting caused thousands in damage to a unit and the contractor's insurance did not cover that damage?
They ran a high pressure nozzle in the drain and forced sludge back into a unit and that became the HOA's liability?

And to this point no one has any real idea what the issue is orcthecroot cause. No less the fix.

And why d o you now need a plumbing engineer? And an electrical engineer? Sounds to me lots of $$$ going down the drain next.

Seems like no one has gotten a grip on what is going on nor how to address this. As for the master policy best wait for the renewal policy before you celebrate. As nothing has been fixed what prevents another plumbing issue from occurring.

My opinion you need a plumber who actually has some idea of what they are doing to determine the cause, and how to remedy the problem once and for all.

Lots of time, effort, and $$$$ has accomplished little up till now. My guess the cost of tow engineers and the fixes they propose best to buckle up and hold on when that project is presented. I wonder just who lives in the unit where all the issues are occurring? How many people reside there? Adults?Children? Pets? do you have laundry facilities in each unit?

Just have to wonder what the mystery really is???????

JoshuaL (California)
Posts: 11

Posted:

Well we have to do something. Although, I suppose we don't have to do anything.

So by your advice what would you do as your first course of action?

I'm proposing that we investigate high risk units which lead us to further insurance claims and high risk areas such as the 1st floor.

I've recently become aware of our budget after taking over for our treasurer who has decided to resign (poor guy, 30 years onboard).

I'm aware of the limitations of our budget. We really don't have any "exploratory preventative maintenance" budget. However, we incurred a 2500 overrun of our budget for plumbing within the past 12 months.

So I plan on augmenting the budget next cycle to include this and hopefully spend some of that 2500 on identifying root causes to the 2 units which contributed to our insurance claims and apply that foreknowledge to the other 1st floor units that have shown signs of backups.

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