Recording CCR Ammendments

DonB13 (Washington)
Posts: 5

Posted:

We have a small 29-resident HOA in the State of Washington of which I've recently become President of the Board. At our next ownership meeting the Board intends to present 2 or more amendments to the CCRs to the ownership of their approval. Assuming the amendments pass my question is this: In the State of Washington does each owner have to sign a notarized document in order to record the amendments or may a member (or members) of the Board sign the document? This issue is not addressed in any of our governing documents.

Thanks for your help.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Welcome Don.
See item (4) below. Appears that certification by an Officer of the association is sufficient.

RCW 64.38.030
Association bylaws.
Unless provided for in the governing documents, the bylaws of the association shall provide for:
(1) The number, qualifications, powers and duties, terms of office, and manner of electing and removing the board of directors and officers and filling vacancies;
(2) Election by the board of directors of the officers of the association as the bylaws specify;
(3) Which, if any, of its powers the board of directors or officers may delegate to other persons or to a managing agent;
(4) Which of its officers may prepare, execute, certify, and record amendments to the governing documents on behalf of the association;
(5) The method of amending the bylaws; and
(6) Subject to the provisions of the governing documents, any other matters the association deems necessary and appropriate.
[1995 c 283 § 6.]

Source: http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=64.38.030

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

CORRECTED:

Quote:

Posted By NpS on 03/30/2016 9:09 AM
Welcome Don.
See item (4) below. Appears that certification by an Officer of the association is sufficient. If not in your Bylaws now, should probably be added.

RCW 64.38.030
Association bylaws.
Unless provided for in the governing documents, the bylaws of the association shall provide for:
(1) The number, qualifications, powers and duties, terms of office, and manner of electing and removing the board of directors and officers and filling vacancies;
(2) Election by the board of directors of the officers of the association as the bylaws specify;
(3) Which, if any, of its powers the board of directors or officers may delegate to other persons or to a managing agent;
(4) Which of its officers may prepare, execute, certify, and record amendments to the governing documents on behalf of the association;
(5) The method of amending the bylaws; and
(6) Subject to the provisions of the governing documents, any other matters the association deems necessary and appropriate.
[1995 c 283 § 6.]

Source: http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=64.38.030

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

When we changed our CC&R's and Articles of Incorporations, we had to have a lawyer. They helped redline the changes and file. Plus we had them draft a document so we could avoid the special meeting requirement so we could go door to door to collect the 75 to 90% OWNER signatures. Which that alone helped tremendously. Hiring the lawyer was around 2K. It was another $750 to just file after we had the votes. Altogether it was about 3K and 3 years....

Keep in mind, that most of your costs may be in distribution AFTER the changes. Your HOA is not responsible for distributing technically. However, most HOA's may like to provide copies. Those may be electronically or paper form. Which is going to cost the HOA considerable money. The HOA may vote to make the owner's pay the copy costs to offset the expense. Not every owner will be knocking at the door to get one.

Typically, by-laws are not required to be filed. However, they can be recorded along with the CC&R's. That may be an additional cost. Something your HOA may be able to save money on depending on your set budget for this project. Good luck!

Former HOA President

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

nPs

You posted requirements for amendment to the Bylaws, which in most states do not have to be recorded. The OP asked about CCRs, which we know have to be recorded and have a higher threshold.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DonB13 on 03/30/2016 9:03 AM
We have a small 29-resident HOA in the State of Washington of which I've recently become President of the Board. At our next ownership meeting the Board intends to present 2 or more amendments to the CCRs to the ownership of their approval. Assuming the amendments pass my question is this: In the State of Washington does each owner have to sign a notarized document in order to record the amendments or may a member (or members) of the Board sign the document? This issue is not addressed in any of our governing documents.

Thanks for your help.

Don,

It would help if you could quote the entire passage from your CC&R's concerning amendments.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I'd like to see the same quote as Larry requests.

Richard, I had to reread NpS's post, so give it a try.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

I am not sure why the requirements to change different governing documents are in different Acts, but they are. The Condo act has provisions on how amendments to the Declaration are handled.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 03/30/2016 10:56 AM
I had to reread NpS's post, so give it a try.

I cited the HOA act. Item (4) of the section I quoted gave requirements on amendments to "governing documents." I read that to mean amendments to both CCRs and Bylaws.
Took a quick look at Condo Act. Didn't see any requirement for CCRs to describe how CCRs get amended. So I figured that info needed to be in Bylaws (similar to what I quoted from HOA Act). But didn't look any further.

Even when there are different statutes, it's common for HOA and Condo Acts to have similar provisions.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By NpS on 03/30/2016 11:22 AM

Posted By KerryL1 on 03/30/2016 10:56 AM
I had to reread NpS's post, so give it a try.

I cited the HOA act. Item (4) of the section I quoted gave requirements on amendments to "governing documents." I read that to mean amendments to both CCRs and Bylaws.
Took a quick look at Condo Act. Didn't see any requirement for CCRs to describe how CCRs get amended. So I figured that info needed to be in Bylaws (similar to what I quoted from HOA Act). But didn't look any further.

Even when there are different statutes, it's common for HOA and Condo Acts to have similar provisions.

RCW 64.34.264
Amendment of declaration.

(1) Except in cases of amendments that may be executed by a declarant under RCW 64.34.232(6) or 64.34.236; the association under RCW 64.34.060, 64.34.220(5), 64.34.228(3), 64.34.244(1), 64.34.248, or 64.34.268(8); or certain unit owners under RCW 64.34.228(2), 64.34.244(1), 64.34.248(2), or 64.34.268(2), and except as limited by subsection (4) of this section, the declaration, including the survey maps and plans, may be amended only by vote or agreement of unit owners of units to which at least sixty-seven percent of the votes in the association are allocated, or any larger percentage the declaration specifies: PROVIDED, That the declaration may specify a smaller percentage only if all of the units are restricted exclusively to nonresidential use.
(2) No action to challenge the validity of an amendment adopted by the association pursuant to this section may be brought more than one year after the amendment is recorded.
(3) Every amendment to the declaration must be recorded in every county in which any portion of the condominium is located, and is effective only upon recording. An amendment shall be indexed in the name of the condominium and shall contain a cross-reference by recording number to the declaration and each previously recorded amendment thereto.
(4) Except to the extent expressly permitted or required by other provisions of this chapter, no amendment may create or increase special declarant rights, increase the number of units, change the boundaries of any unit, the allocated interests of a unit, or the uses to which any unit is restricted, in the absence of the vote or agreement of the owner of each unit particularly affected and the owners of units to which at least ninety percent of the votes in the association are allocated other than the declarant or such larger percentage as the declaration provides.
(5) Amendments to the declaration required by this chapter to be recorded by the association shall be prepared, executed, recorded, and certified on behalf of the association by any officer of the association designated for that purpose or, in the absence of designation, by the president of the association.
(6) No amendment may restrict, eliminate, or otherwise modify any special declarant right provided in the declaration without the consent of the declarant and any mortgagee of record with a security interest in the special declarant right or in any real property subject thereto, excluding mortgagees of units owned by persons other than the declarant.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RichardP13 on 03/30/2016 12:29 PM

Posted By NpS on 03/30/2016 11:22 AM

Posted By KerryL1 on 03/30/2016 10:56 AM
I had to reread NpS's post, so give it a try.

I cited the HOA act. Item (4) of the section I quoted gave requirements on amendments to "governing documents." I read that to mean amendments to both CCRs and Bylaws.
Took a quick look at Condo Act. Didn't see any requirement for CCRs to describe how CCRs get amended. So I figured that info needed to be in Bylaws (similar to what I quoted from HOA Act). But didn't look any further.

Even when there are different statutes, it's common for HOA and Condo Acts to have similar provisions.

RCW 64.34.264
Amendment of declaration.

(1) Except in cases of amendments that may be executed by a declarant under RCW 64.34.232(6) or 64.34.236; the association under RCW 64.34.060, 64.34.220(5), 64.34.228(3), 64.34.244(1), 64.34.248, or 64.34.268(8); or certain unit owners under RCW 64.34.228(2), 64.34.244(1), 64.34.248(2), or 64.34.268(2), and except as limited by subsection (4) of this section, the declaration, including the survey maps and plans, may be amended only by vote or agreement of unit owners of units to which at least sixty-seven percent of the votes in the association are allocated, or any larger percentage the declaration specifies: PROVIDED, That the declaration may specify a smaller percentage only if all of the units are restricted exclusively to nonresidential use.
(2) No action to challenge the validity of an amendment adopted by the association pursuant to this section may be brought more than one year after the amendment is recorded.
(3) Every amendment to the declaration must be recorded in every county in which any portion of the condominium is located, and is effective only upon recording. An amendment shall be indexed in the name of the condominium and shall contain a cross-reference by recording number to the declaration and each previously recorded amendment thereto.
(4) Except to the extent expressly permitted or required by other provisions of this chapter, no amendment may create or increase special declarant rights, increase the number of units, change the boundaries of any unit, the allocated interests of a unit, or the uses to which any unit is restricted, in the absence of the vote or agreement of the owner of each unit particularly affected and the owners of units to which at least ninety percent of the votes in the association are allocated other than the declarant or such larger percentage as the declaration provides.
(5) Amendments to the declaration required by this chapter to be recorded by the association shall be prepared, executed, recorded, and certified on behalf of the association by any officer of the association designated for that purpose or, in the absence of designation, by the president of the association.
(6) No amendment may restrict, eliminate, or otherwise modify any special declarant right provided in the declaration without the consent of the declarant and any mortgagee of record with a security interest in the special declarant right or in any real property subject thereto, excluding mortgagees of units owned by persons other than the declarant.

Thanks Richard -
Three things:
1. OP said it was an HOA.
2. Item (5) of the Condo Act says pretty much the same thing as item (4) of the HOA Act.
3. The OP's question was about whose needs to sign. Only item (5) of what you quoted talks to that issue.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

What was I thinking?

DonB13 (Washington)
Posts: 5

Posted:

Thanks to everyone for their help.

I found the answer I needed on the last page of the CCRs.

Don

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DonB13 on 03/30/2016 4:51 PM
Thanks to everyone for their help.

I found the answer I needed on the last page of the CCRs.

Don

And the answer is.........

DonB13 (Washington)
Posts: 5

Posted:

Sorry. I should have mentioned it:

"This Declaration may be amended by an instrument signed by the Owners of not less than fifty-one percent (51%) of the Lots". In our case we have 29 owners representing 33 lots so we need 17 signatures.

Thanks again for your help.

Don

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DonB13 on 03/30/2016 6:31 PM
Sorry. I should have mentioned it:

"This Declaration may be amended by an instrument signed by the Owners of not less than fifty-one percent (51%) of the Lots". In our case we have 29 owners representing 33 lots so we need 17 signatures.

Thanks again for your help.

Don

Don

If I were in your position, I would get legal clarification on the wording of RCW 64.34.264(1).

Just saying.

DonB13 (Washington)
Posts: 5

Posted:

I appreciate the advice regarding the RCW but that applies to condominiums. We're an HOA of individual homes each on their own lot. Some owners have more than one lot,

Don

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DonB13 on 03/30/2016 7:28 PM
I appreciate the advice regarding the RCW but that applies to condominiums. We're an HOA of individual homes each on their own lot. Some owners have more than one lot,

Don

OK

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DonB13 on 03/30/2016 6:31 PM
Sorry. I should have mentioned it:

"This Declaration may be amended by an instrument signed by the Owners of not less than fifty-one percent (51%) of the Lots". In our case we have 29 owners representing 33 lots so we need 17 signatures.

Except for the percentage, your's is similar to my own CC&R's.

This means that each owner must approve the amendment(s) by signing a document to that effect. It is best that each document that is signed has the entire text of the amendment printed on it. Each owner can sign a copy or multiple owners may sign.

Since there is no mention in your documents about the signatures being notarized you might want to seek legal advice on that point. In my association we have tried to pass several amendments and no one has ever once suggested that signatures needed to be notarized. Your CC&R's use the phrase "signed by the owners," which sounds a bit more informal than "executed by the owners." If I had to guess I would say you do not need notarized signatures but a wise person would seek out legal advice.

An amendment under your CC&R's apparently does not require the approval or participation of the board or any officers. It looks like whoever undertakes the task of gathering signatures may record the amendment.

DonB13 (Washington)
Posts: 5

Posted:

Larry:

One of our owners is a notary and his license is paid for by the Association for just such occasions.

Your last point is something I hadn't thought of before. I'll have to discuss that with the Board.

Thanks.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LarryB13 on 03/30/2016 10:37 PM

An amendment under your CC&R's apparently does not require the approval or participation of the board or any officers. It looks like whoever undertakes the task of gathering signatures may record the amendment.

My reason for bringing up this point is that amendments are sometimes hostile to the board's interests. If I had spent months getting the required signatures I would not want to hand my one and only original over to a board member or officer who takes offense at the amendment. His dog might eat my homework.

An amendment needs to be recorded for it to become effective but I know of no law that makes an amendment more enforceable or less enforceable because of who carried the paperwork down to the county recorder's office. If I had gathered the required signatures I would make it my business to hand-carry the documents to the county recorder and turn the original over to the board only after it has been officially recorded.

There is usually a cost for recording and that could be a sticking point if the person who circulated the amendment wishes to be reimbursed by the association for the expense. Perhaps Part II of the first amendment should be: "Any person recording an amendment shall be reimbursed by the association for the costs of recording the amendment."

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Uhm... This would be crazy for someone to collect signatures and file it on their own without the board. The board are members of the HOA too. Plus they are to represent the HOA. They also carry the insurance to protect the HOA in case there were mistakes. In addition, the board is to carry out/enforce these changes. Why would you do all of this behind their back?

I also believe the documents should have the corporate seal of the HOA. Especially if the Article of Incorporation are involved as well. The HOA should be responsible for paying, filing, and instrumenting. It makes no sense otherwise. The HOA lawyer should be involved as well. It would protect the HOA if the changes weren't legal.

It's okay to want changes and initiate the process of them. It's another thing NOT to involve the HOA board who is in charge of everything else it involves.

Former HOA President

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 03/31/2016 1:33 PM
Uhm... This would be crazy for someone to collect signatures and file it on their own without the board. The board are members of the HOA too. Plus they are to represent the HOA. They also carry the insurance to protect the HOA in case there were mistakes. In addition, the board is to carry out/enforce these changes. Why would you do all of this behind their back?

In the case of the OP and my own CC&R's, neither board participation nor board approval are required. Some board members may take exception to any amendment, especially those that limit the board itself. Under those circumstances it would be "crazy" for whoever gathered the signatures to hand the originals over to the board and expect the board to record them. It is not a question of going behind the board's back because in this case the board has no role in amending the CC&R's; it is entirely in the hands of the homeowners.

I am unaware of any insurance that would "protect the HOA in case there were mistakes." Where does one purchase such insurance?

Quote:

I also believe the documents should have the corporate seal of the HOA. Especially if the Article of Incorporation are involved as well. The HOA should be responsible for paying, filing, and instrumenting. It makes no sense otherwise. The HOA lawyer should be involved as well. It would protect the HOA if the changes weren't legal.

In my state there is no requirement to affix the HOA's corporate seal to any recorded documents.

This is a discussion about amendments to the CC&R's, not the Articles of Incorporation. Certainly, if you live in one of those states with antediluvian corporate statutes, you may have to amend the AI's to reflect changes in the CC&R's but this would be a ministerial act on the part of the board.

The HOA attorney represents the board, not the homeowners. If the homeowners are in doubt they should seek their own counsel. In any event, "if the changes weren't legal" the participation of any attorney would not miraculously make them legal.

Quote:

It's okay to want changes and initiate the process of them. It's another thing NOT to involve the HOA board who is in charge of everything else it involves.

The last time I checked, the homeowner/members were in charge and the board carries out their wishes. The board is the servant, not the master.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

While I would never say never, it seems to me that an Officer of the Corporation would have to file any amendments versus any "shareholder/owner" doing so.

I believe in some states the amendments also have to be filed for each piece of property thus it could be rather costly. I know in SC it only requires one filing ($25.00 I think).

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 04/01/2016 9:03 AM
While I would never say never, it seems to me that an Officer of the Corporation would have to file any amendments versus any "shareholder/owner" doing so.

The CC&R's require only a document signed by the owners. No requirement that an officer of the corporation be involved. Don't know about other places but in my state there is no record as to who delivers the document to the county recorder. BTW, the original CC&R's were recorded by the declarant, not an officer of the HOA.

Quote:

I believe in some states the amendments also have to be filed for each piece of property thus it could be rather costly. I know in SC it only requires one filing ($25.00 I think).

In my state they just charge by the page no matter how many properties are effected.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I am confused... Everyone wants their HOA board to follow and enforce the rules of the HOA. However, it seems it's okay if the members change the rules behind the HOA's board back. So is it so one can say "Screw you" to their board like a bad TV law show? It makes no sense to NOT have the board involvement in the rules changes if they are the ones responsible for enforcing them. Passive-aggressive in my book... Plus it's just a bad taste in the mouth.

Former HOA President

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 04/01/2016 12:50 PM
I am confused...

That explains a lot.

Quote:

Everyone wants their HOA board to follow and enforce the rules of the HOA. However, it seems it's okay if the members change the rules behind the HOA's board back.

The owners have the ultimate power to make the rules. The board works for the owners. If board members find that too difficult to understand they should exit quickly so the door does not hit them in the butt.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Again never to say never but as an official asked to "record" the amendment(s), I would want some legal proof the voting was validated. More proof than just one person showing up saying all is OK.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Board members are still members. When it comes to a membership vote to change the CC&R's, they still have their regular member vote. So if your documents require 100% approval to make changes, then how do you then circumvent the board member for a vote? Seems to me excluding the board in such issues, means less of a voting pool.

My style of running our HOA was that I was I did what my majority of members wanted. I ran things by them before proceeding. However, in that same vain, I believe my fellow members had the same respect to tell me what they wanted. Seems to me this creates a hostile environment by not going through the board for what you the membership wants. Plus it's also the best way to pay for the legal costs for the changes and filing fees. ALL the owners would be participating in that cost.

Sorry but I will not believe it's a beneficial for the HOA as a whole that members change the rules without the board knowledge or participation. They are still members whether or not they are board. They still have to know the rules to enforce the rules/changes. Doesn't seem that the regular members can do that even if they can make the changes.

Former HOA President

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Don't see the relevance of the discussion.

There's going to be a filing fee. Homeowners aren't going to reach into their own pocket to pay it.

Someone has to authorize the payment, and that will typically be a member of the board or the MC.

Maybe there's a non-board member somewhere who doesn't care if she gets reimbursed, but I don't know any in my neighborhood.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 04/01/2016 1:22 PM
Again never to say never but as an official asked to "record" the amendment(s), I would want some legal proof the voting was validated. More proof than just one person showing up saying all is OK.

There is no voting. Members sign a document indicating they approve of the amendment. No signature means no approval. Once enough signatures are collected the amendment may be recorded. Nothing in either my CC&R's or the OP's requires the involvement of a board member or officer. I do not understand why some of you wish to complicate such a simple matter.

BTW, I do not trust those amendments that are approved by voting. That is ripe for fraud, especially when you have secret ballots. You have no way of verifying the vote.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By NpS on 04/01/2016 2:56 PM
Don't see the relevance of the discussion.

There's going to be a filing fee. Homeowners aren't going to reach into their own pocket to pay it.

Someone has to authorize the payment, and that will typically be a member of the board or the MC.

Maybe there's a non-board member somewhere who doesn't care if she gets reimbursed, but I don't know any in my neighborhood.

This is why I suggested earlier putting a clause in the proposed amendment to reimburse whoever records it from HOA funds. This way there is no dispute as to whether to reimburse.

On the other hand, in the real world many states allow voters to place initiative measures on the ballot. There are costs for doing so and I know of no provision for the backers to be reimbursed from public funds.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

What if your CC&R's require 100% to change? How then is the board not involved? Our HOA does allow for a special meeting to be called by the owners to take a vote for rule changes to make it happen. It is done outside of the HOA but also within scope of the ENTIRE HOA. The MAJORITY 90% can change the CC&R's at this special meeting. However, the cost and expense of writing/changes/filing falls on the HOA board to do. The HOA board facilitates this on the owners behalf by paying for it.

Former HOA President

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Meant to say the special meeting happens outside of the normal HOA Board meetings. It's a special meeting called by the owners and the other way they can cast their vote outside of elections. It still does not mean the board is not involved. It's just not their meeting but the ENTIRE HOA as a whole making the decision.

Former HOA President

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 04/01/2016 9:17 PM
Meant to say the special meeting happens outside of the normal HOA Board meetings. It's a special meeting called by the owners and the other way they can cast their vote outside of elections. It still does not mean the board is not involved. It's just not their meeting but the ENTIRE HOA as a whole making the decision.

In my association it requires owners holding 67% of the voting power to approve. In the OP's association it requires 51% of the owners to approve.

In both cases, there is no special meeting required and there is no vote taken. Both his and my CC&R's require those owners who approve of the amendment to sign a document to that effect.

Certainly, board members may approve and sign but they do so as any other owner member would; their positions on the board would give their signatures no extra weight.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Just for the record, the text from my CC&R's regarding amendments is:

"D. Amendments. This Declaration may be amended by instrument executed by the Owners (based on acreage) of at least sixty six and two thirds percent (66 2/3%) of the Parcels, and such amendment shall be recorded in the office of the Yavapai County Recorder."

No meetings. No votes. No board participation. No board approval. No time limits.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LarryB13 on 04/01/2016 4:35 PM
There is no voting. Members sign a document indicating they approve of the amendment. No signature means no approval. Once enough signatures are collected the amendment may be recorded. Nothing in either my CC&R's or the OP's requires the involvement of a board member or officer. I do not understand why some of you wish to complicate such a simple matter.

BTW, I do not trust those amendments that are approved by voting. That is ripe for fraud, especially when you have secret ballots. You have no way of verifying the vote.

IMO, just as much chance of fraud with secret ballots or trolling for signatures.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By NpS on 04/02/2016 9:17 AM

Posted By LarryB13 on 04/01/2016 4:35 PM
There is no voting. Members sign a document indicating they approve of the amendment. No signature means no approval. Once enough signatures are collected the amendment may be recorded. Nothing in either my CC&R's or the OP's requires the involvement of a board member or officer. I do not understand why some of you wish to complicate such a simple matter.

BTW, I do not trust those amendments that are approved by voting. That is ripe for fraud, especially when you have secret ballots. You have no way of verifying the vote.

IMO, just as much chance of fraud with secret ballots or trolling for signatures.

The thing with signatures is that the purported signer can be interviewed or deposed to verify or deny his signature. You cannot do that with secret ballots.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LarryB13 on 04/02/2016 11:57 AM
The thing with signatures is that the purported signer can be interviewed or deposed to verify or deny his signature.

Wow. Has this ever happened?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By NpS on 04/02/2016 12:00 PM

Posted By LarryB13 on 04/02/2016 11:57 AM
The thing with signatures is that the purported signer can be interviewed or deposed to verify or deny his signature.

Wow. Has this ever happened?

Not in my association but I have seen it happen several times when someone challenges the veracity of signatures on an election petition for public office.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 04/01/2016 9:17 PM
Meant to say the special meeting happens outside of the normal HOA Board meetings. It's a special meeting called by the owners and the other way they can cast their vote outside of elections. It still does not mean the board is not involved. It's just not their meeting but the ENTIRE HOA as a whole making the decision.

Melissa, that is YOUR HOA not every HOA in the country. Our CC&Rs only require an: This Declaration
and the By-Laws attached hereto as Exhibit C may be amended upon the filing for record
with the Recorder of County, of an instrument in writing setting forth specifically the item or
items to be amended and any new matter to be added, which instrument shall have been duly
executed by the Unit owners entitled to exercise at least seventy-five percent (75%) of the
voting power of the Association.

So theoretically I could write an amendment, go trolling for signatures, totally bypassing Board member homes and still come up with signatures of 75% of the voting power of the Association. Now whether or not I could get it recorded remains to be seen. I know the last amendment we did, the president had to sign an affidavit, saying she was a duly elected member of the BOD and had the power to file the amendment or something to that effect.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Oh, and don't forget the mortgage holders, they have to be notified and depending on state law, the Declarations or the mortgage contract, may have to approve the change as well. Now our CC&R gets around that by stating: If less than all mortgagees consent to an amendment to this Declaration and / or the By-Laws attached hereto as Exhibit C said amendment or modification shall nevertheless be valid among the Unit Owners, inter sese, provided that the rights of a non-consenting mortgagee shall not be derogated thereby.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

The board works for the owners.

NOPE

The 'board' directs the operation of the corporation.

The directors' fiduciary duty is to the corporation.

The corporation's purpose it to maintain the Common Elements.

No more, no less.

The HOA is NOT the agent of The Creator, merely the maintainer of the drainage ditch(es) and the pool.