conflict of documents

Kelly:

I am a bit confused, if they (the documents) mirror each other then what is the conflict? I guess I need more information before I could give my opinion on the matter.

06/21/2007 2:52 AM Quote Reply
They conflict because, our homes pay two association fees and we are gated. The Master pays only one annual fee and they consist of three other subdivisions. The Master now that they have turned over are chomping at the bit to have say over us as well as complete and total access to our gated community even though we have a functioning board/ The conflicts are as follows. We have a Architectural Review Commity our rules ours are more strict than the Master, we already apply fines when needed for non compliance. Now that they have turned over they want to come in and review our homeowners. Originally it was thought by both our management company and ourselves that the Master only had say where it applied which would be the amenities that our annual fee covers which consists of three common areas. Now it seems that the documents were not written clearly and now we have two associations with the same set of rules over one subdivision, only our guidelines our neighborhood takes great pride in their homes and we probably only have three one of which is on the Master Association Board that does not choose to have to follow any guidelines.... The same cannot be said for the other three subdivisions under the Master.

Ah, that is where the problem lies.... There is no defining line, we are an association unto ourselves, the road was conveyed only to our association (we are a gated community) also we pay a monthly fee to for our association and a annual fee to the Master it was stated early on that this was for the use of the ammenities located in the Master Association. The homeowners are concerned now since the Master Association just turned over, and now they want access into our community to enforce deed restrictions. Problem is they have a less strict set of guidelines than we do along with the fact that the homes in the other three communities that are in the Master and are not gated are definately the bigger fish to fry. We enforce and maintain our community to keep our values high, the feeling does not seem to be shared elsewhere. Not to mention that a board member of the Master Association also happens to be one of our most consistant deed violators.

Usually the back of them is a section on conflicts. But you can't just hunt and peck or you might miss it; start and the front and read until you find it.

Kelly,

So the requirements in your HOA are stricter then the other 3 communities which are governed by the master HOA docs. However, the master HOA is responsible for enforcement of the master docs for all 4 HOAs. Do I have that correct? If so, the master HOA will come to your community and inspect for compliance to which set of documents, the master or your community's?

If they will inspect to the master docs then your community will have no violations, right? It may be redundant inspections because you've already gone beyond the master document but I'm not sure I see a conflict.

I think you mentioned something about the master HOA and your amenities but that's probably a separate issue from inspection.

I haven't heard much about these master and HOAs communities but what I have heard makes me think that they aren't a very good idea. Who needs multiple layers of rules to deal with. Oh well.

Interesting. Thanks. Fortunately I won't be moving for quite a while but when I do I'll be looking out for this and review very, very carefully. Or maybe by then there will be something else :-)

Hi Kelly:

I work for a master association with 10 subs, an apartment building and about 1200 single family homes as well. I'm the compliance coordinator.

Your sub-assn should work to make sure that everybody follows the sub documents, and if you are more restrictive, then the issues you resolve shouldn't be a problem for the master assn.

The master does have the right - and responsibility - to do site reviews within your gates, and to enforce that which is out of compliance. Owners do have a responsibility to both associations to stay in compliance, and are able to be fined by either or both if there is a problem.

That said, I generally try to work with the subs regarding compliance. Most of them have PM's but two are self-managed. I will step in to enforce our docs, and sometimes (due to the differences in our enforcement policy and theirs) I can get something resolved much more quickly (recently someone was parking their pickup with camper in the sub's parking lot, I could give them a three-day notice and then fine them, whereas the sub would have to go through two letters over a month's time...).

However, we don't enforce their covenants, in things that we do not restrict (for instance, the same sub has a rule against car repairs on driveways or in their parking lot, we have nothing on that, so it's up to them to enforce).

In general, there usually won't be anything in your master assn docs to limit their ability to enforce in the subcommunities. Ultimately, it's your PM and theirs (if there are PM's) using common sense to solve problems; you really don't want a "double-whammy" situation going on, where people get two sets of fines. Communication would be a good start on keeping that from happening.

You can email me further at: [email protected] if you wish. Just include "HOA Talk question" in the subject line so that it won't get bounced out of my system. Best of luck in all of this!

J. Patrick Moore, CMCA

TracyT,
The problem is that the Master Association has just turned over, we however have been in control for 2 1/2 years now. The areas outside of are gates are poorly managed and it shows. Since their turnover their only goal has been to come into our community and "do the job they were elected to do" We are gated.. They are not and do not contribute any monies to us. The amenities I spoke of are located in the Master Association three other communities not in ours. Our residents are very upset at the road this Master Board has taken, and they do not understand why they feel they should strong arm the community and want carte blanche access to a privatly owned road. Which incidently is owned soley by our community not the Master. Any ideas?

KellyC3,

I live in a community just like yours. We have a Master Association of which all home owners in the developement are members.

We have 3 sub associations, which were completed in a 8 year build. Each sub association has it's own governing Docs because there are different amenities in each section--which sounds like your community.

Because of different amenities, there are different fees for each sub section BUT!!!! the Master Association has a seperate fee to maintain the common areas that all subs use, such as the street area in the entry and insurances and any other common fees.

Therefore, because you belong to a Master Association, they almost for sure--have the supremacy over the entire developement per the Master Docs.. The Master Board has the right to entry of your gated area. The residents of the other sections DO NOT have right of entry.

The Master Covenants are enforced by the Master Board, in all of your sections. You enforce just your section but your documents are under the authority of the higher Association. And docs from your section and the Master must not conflict with each other. If they do, the Master rules.

Kelly, are you sure "all of the Master are residents that live outside of our community"? I believe your residents are eligible to be on the Board of the Master association. You are separate because you have a gated community with private roads. If the other communities only pay one association fee, are they all members of the Master and have no sub-association? If so, and if your owners don't like the curretn setup then why not try to annex your sub-association into the Master association? This would mean getting rid of the gates, the responsibility of maitaining the private roads, and your sub-assocition Decs.

KellyC3,
I think that we still do not have a clear understanding about how your Documents read as for the Master and sub association divisions. You say that there are other sections in the developement and they are not sub associations? Then what are they? It sounds like they are just under the Master.
According to as much knowledge that I have reguarding subs and masters, those sub associations must have documents as for who controls their compliances. You have seperate documents, but I guarantee you that the Master is the governing control of the CC&R's in the entire developement. That is why they are called the Master. Yours covenants may be stricter and you have enforced them that way so you do not have to relinquish your control to the Master. Continue to control your comunity according to your established guidelines. As long as you do not fail to do your job, the Master has no right to come in and take away what you have established. I hope that you guys are just worried for nothing. And also GET A REPRESENTATIVE ON THE MASTER BOARD.