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BarbN (Florida)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Our Board is planning to allow fence extensions which can only affect half of the community. The other half cannot extend their fences due to physical limitations of available space. My community is 36 years old, is composed of 2-story four-unit buildings, and so far has not had such a situation. New owners have joined the Board and want to change things. All previous rules and regulations are for all owners. Is it lawful for a board to make rules like this?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Did you read your CC&R's and see if they can? This is either a majority board vote or a majority owner vote. Best to look at your documents to define such decisions. Do you have an ARC?

Former HOA President
BarbN (Florida)
Posts: 10
Posted:
I haven't seen anything in the CC&Rs but I will review. We are organized as a home Owners Association. An ARC was recently formed. I am the Chairman of the ARC.
GwenG (Florida)
Posts: 669
Posted:
Be certain your CCR's provide specific authorities for an ARC that specifies controls and limitations on land use. Our CCR's (which previously expired and for which revitalization is currently being attempted) contain NO authority for an ARC. However, the board has always acted "as if" it DID have the authority and actively tries to limit what people do with their property and have a committee and "permission slips". They were recently sued and lost--again (3 previous lawsuits lost)! It was a very expensive attempt to try to maintain the illusion of architectural control and cost the HOA around $150K.

After the lawsuit, most homeowners became aware the board had no authority to limit land use and now ignores the "ARC" (which amazingly continues to try to control owners!)

Have you checked that your CC&R's are still in effect? If you are 36 years old, MRTA may have extinguished the Covenants if your board has not recorded a Notice of Preservation.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BarbN on 02/29/2016 8:10 PM
Our Board is planning to allow fence extensions which can only affect half of the community. The other half cannot extend their fences due to physical limitations of available space. My community is 36 years old, is composed of 2-story four-unit buildings, and so far has not had such a situation. New owners have joined the Board and want to change things. All previous rules and regulations are for all owners. Is it lawful for a board to make rules like this?

Assuming this change passes, it would apply to all owners (who have the space available). If they don't have the space, it shouldn't matter.

We have restrictions that apply to some townhouses but not others (example, some have garages, others don't). Legal? Sure. Reasonable basis for different rules - Not arbitrary.


Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Given the fact that not all parts of the community are identical and were likely that way when everyone purchased their units, it is unrealistic to expect that physical limitations in one part of the community would prevent improvements from being made elsewhere.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Just curious, Barb: Are there objections to the fence extensions? If so, what are the reasons?
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
In general I don't think there's anything wrong with different restrictions if they are imposed with regard to physical placement and constraints of the parcels. It wouldn't be right to say Bob and Ted may erect extensions but Carol and Alice may not because we don't like them.

If the policy were written to be objective and thereafter enforced equally, depending on where the parcel is located, then I think it would be fine.
BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BarbN
Our Board is planning to allow fence extensions which can only affect half of the community. The other half cannot extend their fences due to physical limitations of available space. . . . Is it lawful for a board to make rules like this ?

Barb N Fla : Whatever the proposals contradict, would need lawful amendment & maybe by more than merely the Board or by a mere 1 vote more than a quorumed Owner Meeting.

Respectfully the trigger for needing lawful amendments is NOT whether or not physically the change would be physically impossible at some units. eg Selectively onto common elements : front yard pavings or balcony enclosurings or private gardens or ground-floor decking . .

Further there may be negative cumulative effects legitimately vexing to some owners with a right to kick the can. For example fencing extensions that might mar visuals, restrict landscaping access at perimeter, predict some eventual repair issues or sever/impede walking by owners enjoying perimeter access to exercise or to walk pets.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Barb has raised an interesting question. I'm wondering if anyone would comment on the following situation:

We've got 80 townhouse units. Only 4 of them are at the entrance to the community. Whichever side you come in, you're going to drive by 2 of these entry units.

What if we allowed a certain change (let's say adding a window where there isn't one now) to the other 76 units, but not allow that change for the 4 units at our entrance?

Physically, houses are the same - so the 4 units could make this change.

Problem or not?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NpS on 03/02/2016 6:19 AM
Problem or not?


As Geno mentioned above, if changes are made that leave some units different than others then the changes should not be predicated on the idea that some members are favored over others.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LarryB13 on 03/02/2016 7:52 AM
Posted By NpS on 03/02/2016 6:19 AM
Problem or not?


As Geno mentioned above, if changes are made that leave some units different than others then the changes should not be predicated on the idea that some members are favored over others.

Got that.

Perhaps I didn't explain well enough. Change is predicated on keeping the appearance as you come into the community unchanged. There's a balance to having both sides of the entry look the same. Especially true for townhouses.

This isn't about favoring one homeowner over another. It's about maintaining a certain look at a particular location in the community. Makes no difference who the owner is. Makes a difference where the houses are located.

In Barb's situation, there was a physical limitation on who could do what. Here, there are no physical limitations. Only a desire to keep a balanced look as you enter the community.

Problem or not?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
NPS

In Barb's example they were not prohibiting some units from making the change. They were going to allow all to make the change but for some reason (she did not explain) not all of them could make the change.

In your example you are saying some units would be banned (the two entry buildings) from making the changes.

I see them as different issues.

In one townhouse association I was a member of we did come up with some allowable changes people had been requesting. Mainly bigger and more windows plus deck awnings (all tightly controlled changes). We had some that did complain it would ruin the "continuity" of the neighborhood but they were a minority compared to those that wanted or did not care about the changes.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 03/02/2016 8:16 AM
NPS

In Barb's example they were not prohibiting some units from making the change. They were going to allow all to make the change but for some reason (she did not explain) not all of them could make the change.

In your example you are saying some units would be banned (the two entry buildings) from making the changes.

I see them as different issues.

In one townhouse association I was a member of we did come up with some allowable changes people had been requesting. Mainly bigger and more windows plus deck awnings (all tightly controlled changes). We had some that did complain it would ruin the "continuity" of the neighborhood but they were a minority compared to those that wanted or did not care about the changes.


You've got it John.

Barb's example doesn't cause a problem because everyone can if they have the physical space.

Like you say, townhouses usually have tight restrictions - and window additions are on the short list.

Our exact situation is as follows: We've discovered that all of our units have a certain amount of dead attic space that's accessible by punching through a wall. That space can be built out without changing the exterior dimensions of the houses. We got our first request to allow a window for the built out space.

The request makes a lot of sense. And the house where the request is being made is tucked away where people won't even notice it.

Once we approve one, similar requests will follow.

We've looked at the entire property. The only place where there is a concern is the 4 entry houses.

Some think that we can treat those 4 houses different than the other 76 because of their special location. Others say - if you approve one, you have to approve all.

Me, I'm really not sure.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,061
Posted:
Barb,

This is my understanding from the thread:

1) You are in a Homeowners Association (not a condominium).

2) Your Board is considering allowing fences to be extended onto common area.

If my understanding is correct, then what you need to look for is language within the CC&Rs that specify that the common area is for the enjoyment of everyone. For example, ours is in a couple of places:

Under definitions: "Section 3. “Common Area” shall mean all real property owned by the Association for the common use and enjoyment of the Owners."

Under property rights: “Every member shall have a right and easement of enjoyment in and to the Common Area and such easement shall be appurtenant to and shall pass with the title to every assessed Lot"

Based on this language, the Board may not allow any lot or several lots to enclose said common area, thereby denying the access and use to other members. The only way they could do such a thing would be to amend the governing documents to allow it.

However, the Board may, depending on language within your governing documents, sell portions of the common area to individuals to fence in. Such sale would need to be properly surveyed and recorded with the County.

I would suggest that you urge the Board to seek a legal opinion prior to giving away rights of use to common area authorized in the CC&Rs. If the Board tries to continue without the legal opinion and you are that passionate about the issue, you should consult a local attorney and file injunctions to stop any fence extensions until the issue can be ruled on by a court.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Interesting thoughts Tim. Hadn't read it that way. Hope Barb comes back to clue us in.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I hadn't thought of Tim's approach either because I thought she meant extend the fences to make them higher? Or, what if she means extend the fences in such a way that they do NOT intrude on common area.

But, IDK if she'll come back.

IMO, NpS, the finishing of the attic areas could improve the property value of those THs. To forbid four from that opportunity seems to create an inequity when none previously existed. I'd think that based on equitable legal principals, your HOA could get if trouble.

(I just recently learned about equitable legal principles from our HOA attorney in an opinion he wrote for us.)

Just curious: are you going to permit plumbing up to this space?
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 03/02/2016 11:58 AM
Just curious: are you going to permit plumbing up to this space?

Yes. Units are 3 stories including basement. No one above or below. So we don't deal with interior plumbing issues - only what's outside.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 03/02/2016 11:58 AM
I hadn't thought of Tim's approach either because I thought she meant extend the fences to make them higher? Or . . .?

Not uncommon in certain types of lowrise shared ownership communities eg "lotline condos", are common element perimeters reached by common element lanes or "spokes".

Those may be targetted by attempts by adjacent owners to maximize private gardens or to deter general owners' use of that perimeter for exercising or dog-walking or whatever.

Some bitter condo battles have been waged in my jurisdiction over illegal fence extensions to reach the perimeter, including because the land-grab may render maintenance more complicated. Some of the perimeters & "spokes" have emergency response roles, but once "privatized" they are effectively gone for good . . Maybe similar targetting around others amenities too.
BarbN (Florida)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Thank you for responding... My community is organized as an HOA. According to a survey of my unit, the fence extension area is not common ground. I originally thought it was but after further study it shows as part of an owners property.

Each building is comprised of 4 townhomes, 2 (front) units on the main road, and 2 on the back side. The front of each building has a brick façade thereby disallowing any fence extensions.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,061
Posted:
Barb,

I'm also in a fee simple town home community.

The end units have a larger footprint and more property. The fences are on the property line.
Yep, the interior units have smaller yards then the end units. That is part of what was purchased.

Our homes are all brick.
The fence ends at the rear of the property as well.

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