PCB Transformers on Property

Started by SteveM14 • 35 replies • 2049 views

💬 Join us to post & get advice from 50,000 HOA & Condo leaders.

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in

SteveM14 (California)
Posts: 15

Posted:

Our 44 unit condo community has four, sixty-year-old, PCB-containing, EMF-emitting, hum-producing transformers located right below the master bedrooms of two units. I have verified with the transformer manufacturers by serial numbers that all four transformers contain PCBs. They were installed in 1957.

Southern California Edison is violated several EPA laws by not placing a placard on the door noting the presence of PCBs, not registering or testing the transformers with the EPA. The EPA is investigating.

These transformers should be relocated away from the buildings. However, Southern California Edison simply wants to replace the transformers with non-PCB contains transformers. However, the new ones will still produce high EMF levels due to their close proximity to the bedrooms and the hum will most likely be heard by the occupants.

I'm looking for guidance on how to proceed. The HOA is unwilling to pay their share of the relocation costs which would only include relocating the electric meters. SCE would bear the costs of relocating the transformers.

According to Davis Sterling, use of the common area has to be approved by 2/3 of the owners. I could find no easements that grant SCE exclusive use of the common area/transformer vault.

Does someone have any suggestions on how to proceed?

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 351

Posted:

What documentation do you have that the transformers produce dangerous EMFs?

I know! None.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

If your going to make the HOA pay for some of the costs then why not go to ALL the owners to see if they agree? Seems to me this kind of decision with owners money needs to be discussed and agreed to by a majoriy member vote. A HOA is only funded by its owners so best check your HOA has the funds or needs a special assessment to do it....

Former HOA President

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 351

Posted:

Quote:

. SCE would bear the costs of relocating the transformers.

Why would they pay for the costs of moving? The transformers have been fine for many decades, now it becomes an issue? They should agree to move unless the HOA pays.

Regarding PCBs. They are only dangerous if the shell leaks. They are not a danger just sitting there. Given the safety record of SCE, and their substantial liability in the event leak, I would question your basic premise in the first place. All utilities took the PCB mandates by the EPA very seriously, and placarding was extensive. Now you claim that you have a PCB cooled transformer, and nobody cares.

I think you're seeing a problem where none exists.

SteveM14 (California)
Posts: 15

Posted:

Very good point. Thanks.

However, this board is known for making decisions without asking owners. For example, they built a water fountain at the front of the property at a cost of $40k, they didn't have a building permit, they didn't draw up detailed plans, and they didn't take bids. The worst part was they built the fountain during the middle of the worst draught in California history. Now owners have to pay for extra water because it evaporates and extra electricity to pay for the pumps.

The board has filed harassment charges against owners who complained about asbestos in the ceilings and other safety issues.

Do you see the problem?

SteveM14 (California)
Posts: 15

Posted:

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 351

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SteveM14 on 02/26/2016 9:23 AM

The board has filed harassment charges against owners who complained about asbestos in the ceilings and other safety issues.

Do you see the problem?

And what became of the "charges"? Your use of the word charge implies the police were involved, and the case went to court. If so, and unit owners were found not guilty, they would have a claim for their legal costs and further claims of abuse of process.

It's a 44 unit building, what do the other owners say? The board is not put in place by fiat of royal heritage, they are elected by the members. If things are as egregious as you say, it is time for your ilk to wrestle control from the loonies.

SteveM14 (California)
Posts: 15

Posted:

How long do transformers last before they need to be replaced? According to sources I've seen, its thirty years. These transformers are sixty years old, they are propped up on old tires, they are not strapped down in an earthquake zone, and they violate EPA laws. There are no placards on the doors. If you think SCE cares about safety, you're wrong. When they met with the property manager, they didn't mention that the transformers contained PCBs. They must have forgot.

Take a look at the following article and see if you trust the public utilities:
https://www.planetwaves.net/silence2.html

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 351

Posted:

If they are strapped to tires and not placarded, then I don't believe SCE owns them.

Post a photo somewhere.

SteveM14 (California)
Posts: 15

Posted:

The issue was brought to court and the accusations were dismissed by a judge. However, the owners were stuck with 20k in attorneys fee, and the owner that was accused of harassment had to pay their lawyer 10k even though the case was dismissed. Another reason the board filed a claim, was the owner filed for a recall of the entire board. Even though the case was dismissed, the property manager and president said it was "well worth it" meaning spending the money of the other owners who knew nothing about the case.

The person who accused the owner of harassment was an individual owner and board member. It was not filed on behalf of the board but on behalf of one owner against another owner. Owners were never told of the legal expenses or the disposition of the case.

This is a board who goes after anyone who dares to defy them in anyway.

My wife has a disability and we asked for a special door be installed. After we provided a medical memorandum stating the disability, the board hired the same lawyer to harass me. They spent 16k on attorneys fees and wanted me to pay their lawyer. They said that I did not produce the proper forms and discredited my wife's physician as being unqualified.

SteveM14 (California)
Posts: 15

Posted:

What documentation do you have that says that higher than norm EMF levels are beneficial to a person's health? Especially since this person is exposed to these elevated levels 8 hours a day by sleeping in a room directly over the transformers. The levels are 50% higher in the bedroom than in the rest of the unit.

SteveM14 (California)
Posts: 15

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkM31 on 02/26/2016 9:34 AM
If they are strapped to tires and not placarded, then I don't believe SCE owns them.

Post a photo somewhere.

Download the photo of the transformers: https://www.dropbox.com/s/wf4fqq58lrsky3a/Door.jpg?dl=0

This site only allows photos up to 200k.

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 351

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SteveM14 on 02/26/2016 9:41 AM
The issue was brought to court and the accusations were dismissed by a judge. However, the owners were stuck with 20k in attorneys fee, and the owner that was accused of harassment had to pay their lawyer 10k even though the case was dismissed. Another reason the board filed a claim, was the owner filed for a recall of the entire board. Even though the case was dismissed, the property manager and president said it was "well worth it" meaning spending the money of the other owners who knew nothing about the case.

The person who accused the owner of harassment was an individual owner and board member. It was not filed on behalf of the board but on behalf of one owner against another owner. Owners were never told of the legal expenses or the disposition of the case.

This is a board who goes after anyone who dares to defy them in anyway.

My wife has a disability and we asked for a special door be installed. After we provided a medical memorandum stating the disability, the board hired the same lawyer to harass me. They spent 16k on attorneys fees and wanted me to pay their lawyer. They said that I did not produce the proper forms and discredited my wife's physician as being unqualified.

So the board finds an expense of $16K on lawyer fees less costly than a ADA door? And nobody can do anything because of the board? The board has to justify it's costs, and that attack on you cost each unit about $400. People must not be happy about this stuff. Find out how many others agree with you, and mount a challenge.

Or move.

Or continue to play the victim of the board, individual board members, Southern California Edison and invisible electric waves.

SteveM14 (California)
Posts: 15

Posted:

- So the board finds an expense of $16K on lawyer fees less costly than a ADA door? And nobody can do anything because of the board? The board has to justify it's costs, and that attack on you cost - each unit about $400. People must not be happy about this stuff. Find out how many others agree with you, and mount a challenge.

I paid for the door myself. The board spent the 16k to tell me to remove the door and discredit my wife's physician.

The owners were never told of the attorney fees or the disposition of the harassment case. When I went to the property manager's office to look for the attorney invoices, they had been removed from the files. I am filling a dispute with the local bar association.

- Or move.

- Or continue to play the victim of the board, individual board members, Southern California Edison and invisible electric waves.

I have filed two ethics complaints against Southern California Edison. In first one done 8 months ago, I was never interviewed, the investigator found nothing unethical, and no report was ever written.

The second ethics complaint I made a month ago is ongoing. This time I was interviewed and the investigator has promised to produce a report (that I will never see). Several EPA laws were violated according to EPA officials. SCE has a motto: Be Safe. Always. I suggest they change it to BS. Always. They can't be trusted.

Did you take a look at this article about PCBs and the cover up?

https://www.planetwaves.net/silence2.html

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 351

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SteveM14 on 02/26/2016 10:20 AM

I paid for the door myself. The board spent the 16k to tell me to remove the door and discredit my wife's physician.

The owners were never told of the attorney fees or the disposition of the harassment case. When I went to the property manager's office to look for the attorney invoices, they had been removed from the files. I am filling a dispute with the local bar association.
l

So how does the lawyer get paid? There has to be a copy of the check somewhere.

What is the basis of your complaint with the Bar?

SteveM14 (California)
Posts: 15

Posted:

I did receive the ledger with attorney fees. However, they are not itemized. Most are referred to "Legal Services". Some have "Door Issue". But most are general. I did receive one months of attorney invoices. They are not itemized. There is no description of what service was performed for which issue. It just a six page list of charges for 1/4 hour 1.5 hour, etc. I don't the property manager has any idea of what issues the charges are for. I complained to the bar about exorbitant charges without any explanation or details.

Do you think 16k is a reasonable attorney fee to send two emails and write one letter? The door cost 3k which I paid for.

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 351

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SteveM14 on 02/26/2016 10:30 AM
I complained to the bar about exorbitant charges without any explanation or details.

Since you are not a client of the attorney, your compliant has no merit.

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 351

Posted:

Your issues continue to be with the board. If they have a clear majority on their side, and all you have is a couple of outlier on your side all you can do is move or suffer, preferably in silence.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SteveM14 on 02/26/2016 10:20 AM
Did you take a look at this article about PCBs and the cover up?

https://www.planetwaves.net/silence2.html

I, for one, have no intention of looking at that site. I prefer my information come from more authoritative sources than some individual's the-sky-is-falling blog.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkM31 on 02/26/2016 8:46 AM
What documentation do you have that the transformers produce dangerous EMFs?

I know! None.

Mark,

Electromagnetic fields exist around all electrical sources (not just transformers and power lines).

What EMFs do to the human body may or may not be fully known. It is known that some people are more susceptible to EMF than others. Studies will continue to come out and likely continue to contradict each other. Everyone has to make their own choice.

Personally, I wouldn't live near high-tension power lines and will likely never own a hybrid vehicle. However, I have a power transformer just outside my back yard that I give no second thoughts about. I also use cell phones and have wireless systems within my home that are always on. Everyone has to make their own determination on what they are willing or not willing to live around and with.

In my opinion, if the OP is that concerned about the risk of EMF from that source, I think it would be best for the OP to simply sell and move than to expend the energy to try and force a public utility to move an existing power distribution center.

If the OP is as concerned about EMF as the posting implies, I wonder if they are also concerned about their cell phone or wireless access for the internet.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LarryB13 on 02/26/2016 1:50 PM

I prefer my information come from more authoritative sources than some individual's the-sky-is-falling blog.

See:

Electric & Magnetic Fields from the National Institute of Health (NIH) website

EMF (ELECTRIC AND MAGNETIC FIELDS) list of links to manuals and reports on the topic from the Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)

Magnetic Field Exposure and Cancer from the National Cancer Institute

SteveM14 (California)
Posts: 15

Posted:

The individual that sleeps less than seven feet above the transformers is mentally disabled. She has slept above these transformers 8 hours a day for over twenty years. She was a university professor but is now a bag lady. She hasn't opened her windows or curtains for many years. There is mold and mildew visible and present on the windows and drapes. She has severe OCD and spends five minutes checking her door locks. It's pathetic.

The engineer estimated that she receives 22.8 times the EMF radiation that we do. Could EMFs have anything to do with the destruction of her mental health?

SteveM14 (California)
Posts: 15

Posted:

How little we know . . .

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SteveM14 on 02/26/2016 5:19 PM
Could EMFs have anything to do with the destruction of her mental health?

In short, no.

SteveM14 (California)
Posts: 15

Posted:

Could you please provide the expanded version of your answer. Just curious.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SteveM14 on 02/26/2016 5:19 PM
Could EMFs have anything to do with the destruction of her mental health?

Could it? Perhaps.

Also it could be genetic, mold related problems, past life choices (as in venereal disease or drug abuse), environmental conditions at previous place of employment, radon, etc.

If you want to believe that it was from EMFs, fine.

Proving that the EMF was the one and only cause or how much it may or may not have contributed to exasperating the actual cause would be difficult.

I'm not sure how this forum can be beneficial to you in determining what is causing the problem or if relocating the transformers would make any difference at this point in time.

I'm sorry you are having to deal with this.
I truly wish you luck.

Tim

SteveM14 (California)
Posts: 15

Posted:

I'm quite sure that after sleeping eight hours a day, 7 feet above, four sixty year old, EMF emitting, hum producing, transformers for twenty years has not benefitted her mental health.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I went to school to be an Electrician. Some of my courses I studied involved magnetic fields and the like. Yes, there are studies out there saying there is an effect on human's health if living near/under certain power lines. Mind you they have to be the HUGE metal type and have to be within like 500 feet. I have some friends in the "Ghost hunting" business. They carry EMF detectors with them all the time. On their tours they will go to transformers of buildings and show the levels of EMF's. They say ghost put out EMF fields before they appear... They basically have to lay the meter on the transformer or half foot away to get a reading off one. It's never further than like a foot away to get a reading. These are HUGE over 20K - 80K volt transformers. It just seems the OP issue is with the noise and appearance of the transformers.

Reading between the lines, there seems to be much more to the stories than appears. My suspicion is that the OP installed the special door and then turned in the paperwork. The HOA is under no obligation to meet ADA regulations unless it's to accommodate public access. I would to question the validity of the request and process followed that caused the board to hire council.

If the board is so awful, then I would organize a recall on the board members. Making sure there were enough interested people who wanted to run. Otherwise, it's time to get back to the rules at hand and learn how to quote them.

Former HOA President

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 02/27/2016 7:57 AM

The HOA is under no obligation to meet ADA regulations unless it's to accommodate public access.

I disagree with that statement.

A better statement would have been that the HOA typically has no obligation to pay for ADA accommodations but typically must comply with the allowing the accommodation providing the owner pays for it.

SteveM14 (California)
Posts: 15

Posted:

We paid for the door ourselves. After we installed it the HOA hired a lawyer to harass us.

Three people did file a recall of the entire board. That brought a harassment claim to a judge. The HOA lost. The claim was dropped but the owners had to pay 20 k in attorney fees. The woman who filled for recall spent 10k defending herself and was not reimbursed. The recall failed. Owners are so fearful of the board most of them didn't vote.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

That is a better way of saying it...

... Just got off a 3rd shift... ADA is more for public access than private. HOA's fall under the private sector unless they do have public facilities. Then the public access areas would be appropriate to provide ADA accessibility.

Former HOA President

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 351

Posted:

Good luck to the OP. I see you have been posting at Electrician Talk and getting to the very same thing there as you did here, namely caveat emptor.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 02/27/2016 8:01 AM

Posted By MelissaP1 on 02/27/2016 7:57 AM

The HOA is under no obligation to meet ADA regulations unless it's to accommodate public access.

You are both wrong. The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) applies only to places of public accommodation.

The Fair Housing Act does apply and that requires an association to allow an owner to make reasonable alterations at the owner's own expense.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

I stand corrected.

SteveM14 (California)
Posts: 15

Posted:

Thanks very much. The attorney referred to ADA issues but he was wrong. Thanks.

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 351

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SteveM14 on 03/08/2016 1:17 PM
The attorney referred to ADA issues but he was wrong

He was probably just speaking generically

🎯 You've read this entire discussion

Join the conversation with 50,000 HOA & Condo Leaders:

✓ Ask follow-up questions
✓ Share your experience
✓ Get expert advice
✓ Access 350,000 discussions

Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in here