Property Transfers (Self-Management Question)

Started by JeffreyB5 • 31 replies • 1860 views

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JeffreyB5 (Louisiana)
Posts: 9

Posted:

Quick question- how do you keep track of land sale transactions within your HOA? Our assessor's website is actually pretty nice, but the problem is that they seem to take forever to update it.

I am just looking to see if anyone else has any other method or service.

Thanks!

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Jeff,

I'm the treasurer of my Association. Whenever there is a sale, the closing company asks me to give them an account status (assessment amount, lot paid through date, etc.). When I provide this information, I ask that a copy of the HUD-1 be sent to the Association to ensure we have the correct spelling and mailing address (especially helpful if the property is rented) of the buyer. The closing company has always provided a copy when asked.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Jeffrey,

We used to have a lot of problems when owners transferred properties. When I was secretary of our HOA I found that there was a state law requiring that we record a notice giving contact information. I recorded such a notice and our problems dropped to near zero as title companies and realtors then knew who to contact when properties sold.

Even if your state does not require such a notice, there is little harm in recording one anyway although it will need to be updated if any information changes.

I think having your contact information on a website might be helpful, too. The exchange of information is a two-way street - if the parties to the sale have no idea who to contact then the HOA will be left out in the cold.

JeffreyB5 (Louisiana)
Posts: 9

Posted:

Tim, thanks for the advice. That sounds like something I will look into.

Larry, that is also an interesting idea. Can you tell me more about how you went about the process of filing this? Who was it actually filed with?

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

It is a difficult issue. It is true that the Assessor's office can be up to 6 months behind in updating their records. You have to consider that it takes time for home sales to process. Plus in our state you have to go to the office to claim your homestead exemption. Which I believe you have up to a year to do IF you choose to take that exemption. Also have to consider short sales, foreclosures, and for sale by owner transactions don't always follow the same recording process.

Honestly, I found the best method is to ALWAYS use the HOA address as the "Official" address of the owner. Legal wise it's the one most likely required to be notified anyways. The other "real" address of the owner may be considered a "courtesy". It is the actual HOA address that makes you the owner not where you may reside. Plus legal notices that have to be published in the newspaper for liens/foreclosure process is the HOA address.

The owner still has to pay whether they are notified from the HOA to do so. They can claim ignorance of the HOA all they want. The HOA documentation is PUBLIC information and considered the owner's responsibility to be informed. Some states require the seller to provide the HOA documentation to the new buyer. Other states do not require this. Your HOA may request sellers to notify the HOA of the transaction but it's not mandatory. The HOA can try to put it in the bylaws for such notification. Otherwise, property transactions are a shot in the dark...

Former HOA President

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JeffreyB5 on 02/25/2016 7:33 AM
Larry, that is also an interesting idea. Can you tell me more about how you went about the process of filing this? Who was it actually filed with?

There was no form but state law gave some indication as to what to include: name of association, mailing address, and telephone number of management company (or representative/officer for association); and the book and page number where the CC&R's were originally recorded. I signed it in my capacity as secretary of the association.

I hand-carried the document I created and had it recorded with our county recorder, as that is the agency that records deeds. (This varies a lot with the clerk of courts often being the keeper of such records.) The grantor on the document is our HOA.

A title company searching for the information in the notice should find it as all deeds make reference to the recorded CC&R's, which gives the name of the development and the name of the association. When searching by name of the association the index states only that it is a "Notice." I wish it was a more specific title but there are not so many notices from our association as to make finding the information impossible.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 02/25/2016 8:17 AM

Honestly, I found the best method is to ALWAYS use the HOA address as the "Official" address of the owner. Legal wise it's the one most likely required to be notified anyways.

YOU ARE WRONG!

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

So if I am sooooo wrong... Then how does a bank or a tax foreclosure ever happens? The bank forecloses on the HOA address of the owner. Tax notice thatthe tax assessors office has goes to the address of the owner in the HOA.... Whether or not the owner gets them is on them. The official address of ownership is the actual address of the property.. Unless I am doing math and reality wrong...

If I am sending official notice I am always going to send it to the HOA address of the owner. Wnether they live there or not is irrelevant. My responsibility is to the HOA property. Owners not paying attention to their own property is not my responsibility... Public notification is considered the HOA address. Do not believe me look at the legals section of your newspaper...

Former HOA President

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Oh wait want more proof? When your HOA verifies a person is a member of the HOA what piece of paper do they check? What address do they go by on it? Well would not know it? It would be the HOA adress their name is on... It is NOT their residence address... The proof of ownership and membership is on the HOA property deed....

Plenty of owners have tried to skirt their bills or foreclosures by telling the court they got no notice... Only to find out they lose as the HOA shows certified letters to the HOA member HOA address. Ignoring notices does not excuse one from paying....

Former HOA President

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 02/25/2016 9:47 AM
So if I am sooooo wrong... Then how does a bank or a tax foreclosure ever happens? The bank forecloses on the HOA address of the owner. Tax notice thatthe tax assessors office has goes to the address of the owner in the HOA.... Whether or not the owner gets them is on them. The official address of ownership is the actual address of the property.. Unless I am doing math and reality wrong...

If I am sending official notice I am always going to send it to the HOA address of the owner. Wnether they live there or not is irrelevant. My responsibility is to the HOA property. Owners not paying attention to their own property is not my responsibility... Public notification is considered the HOA address. Do not believe me look at the legals section of your newspaper...

Sorry Melissa, there are state laws that have to be follow in order for an HOA to be in compliance. I understand that might be difficult for you to grasp.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Melissa - You can do what you want.

But if you know or have reason to know that the house is vacant or the owner might be at a different address, then you may have legal obligations beyond sending mail that may not get delivered or forwarded.

In some circumstances, multiple forms of notice are used. Newspaper advertisements. Posting on doors. Process servers. Certified mail. Mailing to last known address. Mailing to name and address recorded at assessor's office. Depends on type of notice and level of assurance that is needed.

The obligation to show that adequate notice was accomplished (or at least sufficiently attempted) is on the sender, not on the recipient.

Soooooooooo when you say that one single method is always sufficient, I find once again that I cannot agree with you.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I NEVER said that ONE method is to be used. I SAID any OTHER notice OUTSIDE of the official HOA address is a "courtesy". The LEGAL address of the HOA member IS their HOA property address to the HOA. Any other address may be their "legal residence" but the address the HOA is concerned about is the one in the HOA.

If I owned a vacation home in Hawaii and it burnt down. The police/fire department is going to respond to the scene of the fire. They will not know the owner of the home will they? How then do you find out besides friends/family? The police/fire marshal will have to look up the information just like an HOA would. When they have to condemn the building, they will post the notice on the property. Now do they have the legal authority or requirement to go further than that? That will depend of course on the "state laws" you reference. Are you so sure they exist? Or are they an ASSUMPTION? Because if that was true, then why would there be a "unclaimed money" sites? Where banks or other creditors who owe you money due to failure to find you?

Former HOA President

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

There is no legal concept called "courtesy" notice. Notice is either legally adequate or it isn't. Your mumbo jumbo about houses burning down in Hawaii add nothing to do with the sufficiency of notice.

Quote:

Posted By NpS on 02/25/2016 10:48 AM
The obligation to show that adequate notice was accomplished (or at least sufficiently attempted) is on the sender, not on the recipient.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

CORRECTED"

Quote:

Posted By NpS on 02/25/2016 3:03 PM
There is no legal concept called "courtesy" notice. Notice is either legally adequate or it isn't. Your mumbo jumbo about houses burning down in Hawaii has nothing to do with the sufficiency of notice.

Posted By NpS on 02/25/2016 10:48 AM
The obligation to show that adequate notice was accomplished (or at least sufficiently attempted) is on the sender, not on the recipient.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Melissa, you're still wrong. Some states have requirements that notices be sent to the mailing address that the Owners gives to the HOA's agent.

In CA, for instance, owners now can request that everything be sent to two of their mailing addresses. The HOA must, by law, not COURTESY, comply.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Kerry

I suggest we make it 4 addresses. Wait. Make that 5.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

John

Sorry, but that is the rules in California. Do you suggest homeowners don't need to follow the governing docs because they feel topics within them are stupid?

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 02/25/2016 1:22 PM
I NEVER said that ONE method is to be used. I SAID any OTHER notice OUTSIDE of the official HOA address is a "courtesy". The LEGAL address of the HOA member IS their HOA property address to the HOA. Any other address may be their "legal residence" but the address the HOA is concerned about is the one in the HOA.

If I owned a vacation home in Hawaii and it burnt down. The police/fire department is going to respond to the scene of the fire. They will not know the owner of the home will they? How then do you find out besides friends/family? The police/fire marshal will have to look up the information just like an HOA would. When they have to condemn the building, they will post the notice on the property. Now do they have the legal authority or requirement to go further than that? That will depend of course on the "state laws" you reference. Are you so sure they exist? Or are they an ASSUMPTION? Because if that was true, then why would there be a "unclaimed money" sites? Where banks or other creditors who owe you money due to failure to find you?

Melissa,

I own a vacation home in Hawaii. I have informed the management company that I want all correspondences mailed to my primary residence in the states.

If the property burnt down, how would the fire department know who owned it. Many ways, tax records, title, PM, neighbors.

I am truly surprised you were president of your association. If an owner rented their unit and there was a complaint against the tenant, you automatically send the notice to the address or in this case, the tenant, who by the way opens and throws in the trash. Now you fine the owner for not addressing the issue.

UNBELIEVABLE, to say the least.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

The issue of addresses has been discussed with Melissa previously.
Based on my recall of the previous discussions, I believe that Melissa is simply utilizing wrong terminology.

We are all aware that State laws typically require the Association to utilize the address on file with the Association for communications. We are all aware that it is not the Associations job to know when someone moves and ask for that address. Therefore, if someone has provided mailing address, moves from that address but fails to notify the Association, the Association can utilize the property address (which may or may not get mail to the individual) as that is the other address on file with the Association.

Melissa, the way you presented this issue would be the same as saying, the official address of the Association is the registered agent. Therefore, all assessment payments and other communication should be sent to the registered agent. Sending payments or communication to any other address is simply a courtesy (implying that it is not required). I think you will admit that an argument can certainly be made that such a statement may be technically correct. It simply sounds silly and unrealistic. Additionally, anyone choosing to send payments to the registered agent, vs. the Associations bookkeeper/MC/Treasurer, will likely incur charges. If the registered agent is also the Associations attorney (and that is common) the Association will likely incur legal charges for someone in that office to forward the payment to the Association.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 02/26/2016 2:43 AM
The issue of addresses has been discussed with Melissa previously.
Based on my recall of the previous discussions, I believe that Melissa is simply utilizing wrong terminology.

We are all aware that State laws typically require the Association to utilize the address on file with the Association for communications. We are all aware that it is not the Associations job to know when someone moves and ask for that address. Therefore, if someone has provided mailing address, moves from that address but fails to notify the Association, the Association can utilize the property address (which may or may not get mail to the individual) as that is the other address on file with the Association.

Melissa, the way you presented this issue would be the same as saying, the official address of the Association is the registered agent. Therefore, all assessment payments and other communication should be sent to the registered agent. Sending payments or communication to any other address is simply a courtesy (implying that it is not required). I think you will admit that an argument can certainly be made that such a statement may be technically correct. It simply sounds silly and unrealistic. Additionally, anyone choosing to send payments to the registered agent, vs. the Associations bookkeeper/MC/Treasurer, will likely incur charges. If the registered agent is also the Associations attorney (and that is common) the Association will likely incur legal charges for someone in that office to forward the payment to the Association.

No reason to sugar coat it Tim.

Not like a registered agent at all. You get to choose your registered agent and the address where you want your mail to go.

Melissa says that it's the HOA's choice where your mail should go. And the HOA has no obligation to send mail to the place you choose.

If this has been discussed before, only makes it worse.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Let me put it this way... If you wanted to send notice to ALL your fellow HOA members to recall the board, where would you send the letter to? Mind you your NOT a board member. Would you NOT just walk around your neighborhood and write down the addresses? You can NOT put anything in a mailbox without a stamp on it. Most of you won't allow people to put things on your doorstep. You do NOT know all your fellow members and the HOA is NOT releasing information. The reason for the board recall...

Not every HOA is run like a professional corporation. Some of us just kind of "wing it" the best they can to make it work. What works for some HOA's doesn't work for others. The ONLY requirement to be in a HOA is just to own a home. Not very high standards or expectation of professionalism. I would make a safe estimate that many HOA's out there don't know the mailing addresses of their membership. I would even go so far as many with Management companies ASSUME has that information. The REALITY is that no one is going to be available to be contacted 100% of the time. There is always going to be gaps of time, refusals, or ignorance when it comes to up to date HOA information. For me, I am going for thing that is still standing... The mailbox at the home of the HOA member... All else is just a courtesy to me to contact or find.

Former HOA President

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 02/26/2016 7:36 AM
Let me put it this way... If you wanted to send notice to ALL your fellow HOA members to recall the board, where would you send the letter to? Mind you your NOT a board member. Would you NOT just walk around your neighborhood and write down the addresses? You can NOT put anything in a mailbox without a stamp on it. Most of you won't allow people to put things on your doorstep. You do NOT know all your fellow members and the HOA is NOT releasing information. The reason for the board recall...

Not every HOA is run like a professional corporation. Some of us just kind of "wing it" the best they can to make it work. What works for some HOA's doesn't work for others. The ONLY requirement to be in a HOA is just to own a home. Not very high standards or expectation of professionalism. I would make a safe estimate that many HOA's out there don't know the mailing addresses of their membership. I would even go so far as many with Management companies ASSUME has that information. The REALITY is that no one is going to be available to be contacted 100% of the time. There is always going to be gaps of time, refusals, or ignorance when it comes to up to date HOA information. For me, I am going for thing that is still standing... The mailbox at the home of the HOA member... All else is just a courtesy to me to contact or find.

DUE PROCESS is the most basic RIGHT in our legal system. NOTICE is an essential part of DUE PROCESS. Your STATE has RULES about what is and what isn't LEGAL NOTICE. If an HOA does not give LEGAL NOTICE to a member, that member can SUE for a violation of DUE PROCESS and WIN. Any BOARD MEMBER who thinks that "winging it" is ok when it comes to DUE PROCESS is in for a rude awakening.

"Winging it" on matters affecting DUE PROCESS demonstrates GROSS INCOMPETENCE. It's so bad, that D&O INSURANCE won't cover it. The BOARD MEMBERS will be on their own to defend such GROSS INCOMPETENCE claims and they have NO DEFENSE.

There are no excuses for not finding out what your STATE's RULES on NOTICE are. There are no excuses for making things up as you go.

As far as your latest hypothetical is concerned, it's no better than the burning house in Hawaii.

What a board member MUST DO and what an ordinary member CAN DO are completely unrelated. The ordinary member is NOT a FIDUCIARY and has NO OBLIGATION to follow the DUE PROCESS RULES required by your STATE.

Hey - Do you think that writing in CAPS gets the message across better?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Do you think the concept of delivering to BOTH addresses has gotten to you yet??? How hard is that to understand??? REALLY???

Former HOA President

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 02/26/2016 9:09 AM
Do you think the concept of delivering to BOTH addresses has gotten to you yet??? How hard is that to understand??? REALLY???

It's not the concept of delivering messages to MULTIPLE addresses that I find fault with.

It's giving BAD advice that you can make up your own rules without taking the time to learn what NOTICE your STATE LAW requires.

When you say it's a "courtesy" - you are saying that you DON'T have to (even if it VIOLATES your STATE LAW). How hard is to understand that COMPLYING WITH MANDATORY STATE LAWS is NOT a "courtesy"? It's obeying the law.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

It is NOT my responsibility to consider the laws of every state. Anyone reading or taking advice should have the brain enough to know to check out their own local, state, HOA, and Federal laws before taking action. I am so beyond sick and tired of the people in here going "State law this... State law that"... Get a grip!!! If you TAKE advice, then I trust you are smart enough to consider other factors as well. If not, then you have bigger problems... Advice is free... Consequences of advice is your own...

Former HOA President

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 02/26/2016 1:11 PM
It is NOT my responsibility to consider the laws of every state.

No one asked you to consider the laws of every state. Your advice doesn't even satisfy the Due Process Notice requirements in the State of Alabama.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I believe that one reason some of us bring up state laws frequently is because we never know how many new HOA members or HOA leaders there are reading these posts at any point in time. Reminders that state laws prevail over any HOA's preferences and even their HOA's governing documents is important.

It's not that new visitors may not be "smart enough" to consider other factors, it's much more likely that they don't yet know what these other factors are. So adding the state law caveat is really important if our goal is to help others learn.

(and yes, NpS, Melissa has made her "courtesy" argument many times about this topic and other legally required actions that HOAs MUST take.)

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

Hey - Do you think that writing in CAPS gets the message across better?

When used JUDICOUSLY for emphasis (as you did), YES

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

judiciously

oops, spell check no work on caps

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PitA on 02/28/2016 6:27 AM
oops, spell check no work on caps

Is it your spell checker that regularly adds question marks to the beginning of your interrogative sentences?

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

֏ maybe

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