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DavidW5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 565
Posted:
Can anyone share the evaluation criteria you have used to evaluate proposals for s full reserve study? We issued and RFP last week to 6 potential bidders and have already received two proposals. What factors did you use to chose between responsive bids?
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
One criterion we used was how experienced the analyst/specialist was in our type of HOA for our full study last year. We have three reserves budgets and previous specialists had gotten the areas mixed up.

So, in your case, David, HOAs similar to yours especially if you have a lot of components and/or unusual components.

We also wanted someone with certification.

Although compiled by CA HOAs, visit Davis-stirling.com and go to Reserves. Much of what's there is generalizable to all HOAs.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
1. Get report samples. See if the end product is explained at a level that your folks want and understand.

2. Get a clear picture on how they handle interest rates and inflation. Make sure your comfortable with their approach. These numbers can have a huge impact.

3. Make sure that it's a 30 year study.

4. Interview the reserve specialist who will actually prepare the study. As Kerry stated, not uncommon for specialist to miss things. Example for us - We share a retention basin with neighboring apartment complex. Docs make us responsible for 1/3 the cost but specialist missed it and made us 100% responsible.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
RequestForProposal

is NOT

a Request For actual BIDS

Y'all may end up comparing apples to cucumbers.

FIRST: establish PRECISELY what you want done

THEN: write the job SPECIFICATIONS

ONLY then: request bids on the SPECIFICATIONS

NOT

'proposals' otherwise known as 'that's what the contractor gave me'

Y'all are directors, DIRECT
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PitA on 02/20/2016 9:35 AM
RequestForProposal

is NOT

a Request For actual BIDS

Y'all may end up comparing apples to cucumbers.

FIRST: establish PRECISELY what you want done

THEN: write the job SPECIFICATIONS

ONLY then: request bids on the SPECIFICATIONS

NOT

'proposals' otherwise known as 'that's what the contractor gave me'

Y'all are directors, DIRECT

Interesting blather, but not necessarily appropriate.

Appears that OP is preparing to do first RS. Very likely that they will have the first RS done, and not fully understand the nuances of what they need until it's time for a RS update in a few years.

RS is a professional evaluation of future needs. Silly to think that OP's HOA should figure it all out in advance.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
My point is/was:

From amongst the received PROPOSALS,

select one,

request bids on the same scope of work.

Do NOT accept the cheapest PROPOSAL, but DO accept the lowest QUALIFIED bid.

Else one is comparing apples to oranges.

(and will take what the contractor gave one)



NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PitA on 02/20/2016 11:04 AM
My point is/was:

From amongst the received PROPOSALS,

select one,

request bids on the same scope of work.

Do NOT accept the cheapest PROPOSAL, but DO accept the lowest QUALIFIED bid.

Else one is comparing apples to oranges.

(and will take what the contractor gave one)


Generally speaking, all RS providers offer 3 options.
A. Full study.
B. Update with site visit.
C. Update without site visit.
If you choose A, B, or C, scope of project is usually very similar from any qualified provider.

I do agree on your points about not choosing the cheapest or the lowest qualified bid.


Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
you are either:

deliberately obtuse

or

simply obtuse

I am sure the OP got my point.

....scope of project is usually very similar from any qualified provider....


.... but NOT the same.

Therefor, pick the desired scope of work and bid it out ... apples to apples.

I am done here.



KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
To take this a little further, David, for a full study, you'll want the RS to also review your CC&Rs.

Ours, for example, refer readers to our original Condo Plan and DRE Budgets that are registered with the state Dept. of real Estate (now Bur. of RE in CA). But it was necessary that he review all of these to understand our reserves components and in which of the three areas they belong.

Is this your first full study? How have you reserved for components up until now?
JimR24 (Texas)
Posts: 399
Posted:
When our reserve study was done back in 2012, we made sure we had the spreadsheet (an excel file) delivered to us too. Since that time, we've updated the spreadsheet on our own each year with actual figures.

Doing this has helped us considerably...since the spreadsheet formulas update the projections each time we insert actual amounts as the years went by. We plan on continuing this practice as long as things continue to make sense.

Just an idea for you to consider.

Good luck!

oljim, in texas

Lovin' life with my honey!
and, President of HOA in Texas
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PitA on 02/20/2016 3:23 PM
you are either:deliberately obtuse or simply obtuse I am sure the OP got my point.
....scope of project is usually very similar from any qualified provider....
.... but NOT the same. Therefor, pick the desired scope of work and bid it out ... apples to apples. I am done here.

Your point seems to be that OP should get identical proposals from all candidates. I would agree with this approach if the OP was building a wall where the materials, dimensions, labor, etc. can be specified up front. It does lead to an apples to apples comparison.

But here we are dealing with a professional opinion. Whether it's a doctor, a lawyer, an accountant, a reserve specialist, etc. - it's not very likely that you're going to get advance proposals down to the level that you would when building the wall. If you are looking for an accountant, you can choose from (a) an audit, (b) a review, or (c) a compilation - but generally speaking, you're getting their work product that they perform in their own particular style. If its a reserve specialist, you can choose from (a) a full study, (b) an update without site visit, and (c) an update with site visit. They too are going to perform their work in their own particular style. If it's a doctor, same story.

The other difference between building a wall and a professional opinion is that the unknowns when building the wall should be minimal. Not so with a professional opinion - which often has more to do with exploration and evaluation than it does with construction or assembly.

IMO, the best you're going to get when you're dealing with professional opinions is something that's "usually very similar". Also IMO, asking professionals to do things "the same" is unrealistic.


Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
DavidW5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 565
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PitA on 02/20/2016 3:23 PM
you are either:

I am sure the OP got my point.


Actually I don't get your point. Just to clarify a few things... We are asking for a full reserve study because the previous one (before I lived here) was deficient. The RFP we issued was very specific as to what we expect. I simply am asking for the evaluation factors that participants here may have used to select among proposals received on something other than price.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NpS on 02/20/2016 11:48 AM

Generally speaking, all RS providers offer 3 options.
A. Full study.
B. Update with site visit.
C. Update without site visit.
If you choose A, B, or C, scope of project is usually very similar from any qualified provider.

Keep in mind that there are different methodologies for funding the Reserves (which is part of the study). They may be called different names, but the two main options are:

Cash Flow Method - A method of developing a reserve funding plan where contributions to the reserve fund are designed to offset the variable annual expenditures from the reserve fund. Different reserve funding plans are tested against the anticipated schedule of reserve expenses until the desired funding goal is achieved.

Component Method - A method of developing a reserve funding plan where the total contribution is based on the sum of contributions for individual components.

Each method has there pros and cons. Make sure that you are asking for the study to be based on the funding style you desire.

Here are some additional links that may be of interest:

Reserve Study Definitions

Reserve Studies Management from CAI

CHOOSING BETWEEN STRAIGHT LINE AND CASH FLOW

CUTTING THROUGH THE FOG Cash Flow vs Component Understanding Different Methodologies
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
OP,

If you continue with a RFP (as opposed to RFB) you will get whatever the vendor offers (proposes) as opposed to what you specify.

See Tim's post above.

Pick a system THEN request BIDS based on what Y'ALL have decided.

Y'all need to 'farm out' the work, not the specs.

NOT NIT PICKING: A Proposal IS NOT THE SAME AS A Bid.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 02/21/2016 8:17 AM
Keep in mind that there are different methodologies for funding the Reserves (which is part of the study). They may be called different names, but the two main options are:

Cash Flow Method - A method of developing a reserve funding plan where contributions to the reserve fund are designed to offset the variable annual expenditures from the reserve fund. Different reserve funding plans are tested against the anticipated schedule of reserve expenses until the desired funding goal is achieved.

Component Method - A method of developing a reserve funding plan where the total contribution is based on the sum of contributions for individual components.

From my limited experience, most reserve studies I've seen do the analysis both ways.

As I stated previously:

A. I've seen significant variations in how reserve specialists deal with inflation and interest. Minor differences can have a big impact.

B. Get report samples. See if the end product is explained at a level that your folks want and understand.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Note: When we send an RFP, we also include a statement of work.

This helps in trying to compare apples to apples but doesn't always work (as the statement of work identifies the end result with only a few specifics), because each contractor has their own methods.
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
Note: When we send an RFP, we also include a statement of work.


Words have meaning. Different words have different meaning.

Perhaps you MEAN:

{When we send a request for bids, we specify the scope of work required.}

eg.

Please propose a reserve study for xyz hoa.

vs.

Please quote a 30 year infrastructure replacement 'reserve study' for xyz hoa. Said hoa contains/manages multiple storm water retention facilities in addition to a xxx' clubhouse and pool.
The selected vendor will be responsible for ascertaining the reserve components necessary for the study with the aid of the BOD. etc.

This topic (RFP vs. RFB) is a personal 'bug-a-boo' resulting from my neighbor's attitudes of "But that's what the contractor gave me!" which has resulted in 100s of thousands of $$$$ wasted over the years.

eg. get proposals on 'topping' the parking lot - pick the lowest cost - pay for work - work fails in 3 years - obtain and send out specs for depth and type C asphalt - pick lowest BIDDER - job now done properly with 2" overlay of quality material AS SPECIFIED for $27,000 - original cost of $22,000 wasted

REMEMBER:

The bitter dregs of poor workmanship linger long after the sweet taste of a low price.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Nps' suggestion: "Get report samples. See if the end product is explained at a level that your folks want and understand."

I think that's a very good idea. Each firm will have a boilerplate that explains their processes. I believe thy all will be roughly the same as they do have professional standards.

So, as stated way above, I think, David, you want a firm or individual who has a fair amount of experience with HOAs of your type & level of complexity. Also, and I'm sure you know this, a full study means the analyst visits the premises. Make sure that one or more directors can accompany him/her when they inspect your components. (Here it's just been the PM, but that'll change next visit.)

It's probably a good thing that you do have a study even if deficient. At least the analyst can use it as a rough guide and and it probably captures most of your components.

Here's something to consider. See if any are willing to give a presentation to your Owners & board to help you all understand the importance of robust reserves and of a solid plan moving forward. Last spring, our analyst came and spoke to a joint meeting of our Finance Committee & Board ahead of his full study.

We've had three RAs in the past 5 years (don't ask!), our current RA will do his 3rd study update w/out site visit--this spring. All three analysts, though, used the same inflation rate and interest rate (which I won't look up now).

We had some low cost components with short lives that our analysts threw out last year, e.g., chair in our guard kiosk. I also disagree with time elsewhere when he writes that snow removal should be a reserves item because it "restores" the streets to being snow free. To my mind, it belongs in the operating budget. but that's the type of time that you'll want to work out with the analysts, David.
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:

I stand corrected.

We truly have become 'a nation of barbarian merchants' where different words do NOT have different meanings.

The vendors are now OFFICIALLY off the hook as there is no difference between proposal and bid.

The courts are now TOTALLY FREE to interpret any contract AT WILL with no regards for the actual words used.

As Orwell would say:

Love is Hate.

War is Peace.
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
As per one of Tim's references:

Why use a RFP in the first place? – The main reason lies in the fact that some solicitations, generic specifications may not be available or prove too difficult to draft. Furthermore, the use of a conventional evaluation based solely on price for awarding a contract may not get the product or service required. Many complex products and services cannot be obtained by conventional bidding based solely on price. This is the reason why a xxxxx may choose an RFP over another form of procurement such as an Invitation for Bid (IFB).


My point, stated well.

The BOD needs to determine WHAT and (to a certain extent how) before 'bidding' out the job.

PROPOSALS are what the vendor thinks.

BIDS are quotes for what YOU want.
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
Tim,

Thanx for the links.

It seems I want a:

request for quotation (RFQ) a bid solicitation method when the award will be made on the basis of the supplier able to satisfy each of the mandatory requirements and having the lowest cost.


Form up the circle
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I apologize for my continuing sloppy typing above. In one place "time" should be Tim, and in another "time" should be item!
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
'Hic

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PitA on 02/21/2016 12:50 PM
'Hic


Hoist up the John B sail

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
aah, you remember
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
See how the mainsail set...
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
drinkin all night - got into a fight ..

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

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