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JasonM14 (Florida)
Posts: 10
Posted:
I got a letter from my hoa stating my dog is a nuisance from barking and got of his leash a couple times. He's a gentle giant I shall say. Wouldn't hurt anyone, never gone after anyone. So this letter is from hoa attorney stating if he's not kept on a leash and continues barking they are going to come and take him. Is this legal?
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Probably, esp. since you have a letter from the HOA attorney.

Now, in my HOA, we (the Board) would NOT go to the expense --maybe $ 250--of hiring an attorney to write the letter unless we'd already sent you (or your owners) a warning letter. If your dog continues to be a nuisance, we'd have called you (or the Owner) to a hearing a fined you/them for perhaps breaking dog rules and creating a noise nuisance.

Many HOAs and and I'd say all condos have restrictions against noise nuisances.

Why not buy a no-bark collar and keep your pet on a leash??
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JasonM14 on 01/15/2016 1:12 PM
I got a letter from my hoa stating my dog is a nuisance from barking and got of his leash a couple times. He's a gentle giant I shall say. Wouldn't hurt anyone, never gone after anyone. So this letter is from hoa attorney stating if he's not kept on a leash and continues barking they are going to come and take him. Is this legal?

And how exactly are they going to get inside your home to take the dog if you don't let them?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Animal control issue NOT an HOA. The HOA has no legal stance on this unless they have it written in their rules of HOW they enforce such violations. I would consult the local animal control and discuss the issue. Make sure what your rights are with them and the city. Our city has a noise nuisance of 10 pm. The HOA rules can't supercede this.

I have an issue with a neighbor who threatens me constantly over my dogs "barking". I have 4 of them now and they rarely bark. If they do, it's usually at strangers or neighbors dogs. However, they rarely bark for any long period of times. He has several dogs himself. Which he lets run around unleashed in the front yard. My dogs NEVER leave the house out the front door without a leash. They won't even run out the door if it's left open. The police has been called to my house several times over the matter. The funny part? The animal control officer is our neighbor who lives directly behind us! Even he saw there was NO issue with my dogs! It's on video tape as well. So he keeps threatening me and I tell him to bring it on... Nothing he can do but complain and blow hot air. I even put up a privacy fence between us so my dogs won't even see his.

Former HOA President
JasonM14 (Florida)
Posts: 10
Posted:
I've received 0 notices. This was my first from an attorney they said if it happens again. They'll take him. I was gonna upload the letter I will when I get home, I need to resize it. He's kept on a lead though but has broke his lead a couple times and got off. Or ran out if the kids left the door open. Never harmed anyone never hurt anyone.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Does he bark a lot? I seriously doubt they can physically take the dog from you but they can certainly require you to get rid of it. Animal control is not the HOA's responsibility but if the CCRs have prohibitions against noise and nuisances then it's not really an "animal control" issue at all, it's a noise issue.
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
If I am not mistaken, Florida views animals as property. I had found a 2001 article from the Florida Bar Journal stating such. With that being said, unless you have specific covenants and restrictions stating that the HOA has the right to seize property than I would say they have zero authority to take your pet. Similarly, this would be like them taking a stereo from your property because it was too loud or impounding your car because it has a bad muffler and thus a nuisance.

Sadly, the HOA can get away with actions like this because this is Florida and our system allows HOAs to do whatever they want with zero oversight. I would recommend getting an attorney who is knowledgeable in HOA law and represents homeowners to send a nicely worded letter to the board and their attorney. Otherwise, if you may have to fight this one out in court and in that situation be prepared to spend hundreds and thousands because the HOA has much more resources than the average homeowner and will use their power to wage a war of attrition. You could always recoup costs in court so it may not be a total wash.
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GenoS on 01/15/2016 2:19 PM
Does he bark a lot? I seriously doubt they can physically take the dog from you but they can certainly require you to get rid of it. Animal control is not the HOA's responsibility but if the CCRs have prohibitions against noise and nuisances then it's not really an "animal control" issue at all, it's a noise issue.

Depending on the restriction, Geno may right regarding subjective restrictions regarding noise or nuisances. I remember my HOA loved trying to enforce such restrictions calling everything "rubbish" and demanding removal.

Also, do you have any restrictions that grant them authority to come on your property to correct any violation?
JasonM14 (Florida)
Posts: 10
Posted:
I can't upload pictures of the letter. I'm planning on moving in the next 60 to 90 days. Hopefully to a NON HOA property. I only rent this property, but I am planning on buying a house as soon as possible. I really don't know if there is anything I can do.. they won't even approach me and talk to me. they want me to go through their attorney in writing for communication. I don't understand how this is the first i am really hearing anything regarding this by the HOA.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JasonM14 on 01/15/2016 4:40 PM
I can't upload pictures of the letter. I'm planning on moving in the next 60 to 90 days. Hopefully to a NON HOA property. I only rent this property, but I am planning on buying a house as soon as possible. I really don't know if there is anything I can do.. they won't even approach me and talk to me. they want me to go through their attorney in writing for communication. I don't understand how this is the first i am really hearing anything regarding this by the HOA.

They may have been sending notices to the owner who ignored them.
If you're moving within 90 days, let them know. They may be pleased when they find out that you are taking the dog out of the neighborhood. Threat letters might stop.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
JasonM14 (Florida)
Posts: 10
Posted:
She's pretty good at giving me any notices. she has for my trash can. she's also a friend of ours, and a neighbor. she knows my dog is a good dog, and harmless.
JasonM14 (Florida)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 01/15/2016 1:26 PM
Probably, esp. since you have a letter from the HOA attorney.

Now, in my HOA, we (the Board) would NOT go to the expense --maybe $ 250--of hiring an attorney to write the letter unless we'd already sent you (or your owners) a warning letter. If your dog continues to be a nuisance, we'd have called you (or the Owner) to a hearing a fined you/them for perhaps breaking dog rules and creating a noise nuisance.

Many HOAs and and I'd say all condos have restrictions against noise nuisances.

Why not buy a no-bark collar and keep your pet on a leash??

I just bought a bark collar, and he's always on a leash. He has broke it twice, and my kids have let him out a few times, but never has he been destructive or aggressive towards anyone. Unless wagging your butt and tail aggressive is bad.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Wait your a renter? Then that is a different story. You are NOT a member of the HOA. They need to send notice to your landlord ONLY. The landlord is responsible to enforce the HOA rules upon you IF they are part of your rental agreement. Otherwise, I would tell them go pound sand and prove it.

Former HOA President
JasonM14 (Florida)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Is this true in all states?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
You are ONLY a member of a HOA if you are an OWNER. That is true in any HOA. Renters are NOT members. Hence why it is called a Homeowners Association. You have no signed contract with them. They are a third party. They are to hold the member responsible. That is your landlord. It is your land lord responsibilty to address their tenants. Plus renters do have rights. If it is not in the lease to follow the HOA rules, they can not evict on those basis.

Former HOA President
JasonM14 (Florida)
Posts: 10
Posted:
It is in the lease to follow hoa rules and we were given a copy of hoa rules. Landlord approved the dog. He was bought as a puppy 8 weeks old. He's now 2. My kids would be devastated if they came and tried taking him or made us get rid of him... should I talk to my landlord have her make them aware we are looking to purchase a house and move out of the development hopefully by the end of our lease in march
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Certainly talk to them. You need to give proper notice to leave anyways. Plus the lawyer was to contact them not you. So they are the ones who should go to the board. Make sure dog approval was signed off. The HOA is in the wrong here.

I am sure do not expect to here that from an board member type... However, most of us here have been on both sides. Plus I am a former landlord myself. My tenant had a baby Emu in my back yard without my knowledge... Yeah that happened... The HOA did not notify me... They just stopped mowing my back yard...

Former HOA President
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
BTW... The HOA can not force your landlord to evict you either. The landlord decisides that. There are renters rights involved here even your landlord can not violate. Evictions can take months to take effect. If you get serve with a notice you can respond to dispute it. Which will give you more time. However, you do not want to do that. You want a good referral from your landlord. It looks good for you.

Former HOA President
JasonM14 (Florida)
Posts: 10
Posted:
can the HOA impose fines on the Owner which she would then pass on to me?
DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JasonM14 on 01/15/2016 7:57 PM
can the HOA impose fines on the Owner which she would then pass on to me?

The HOA can impose fines on the owner, it's not really the HOA's concern if the owner passes them on to you. I would expect that would depend on your lease. If there is nothing there about passing on expenses incurred because of you, then I'd guess the fine is the owners problem.

Back to "can the HOA take my dog", I've never heard of an HOA taking a dog. Depending on the rules, they might be able to prohibit you from keeping it in the HOA.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Remember that boards can and do bluff, sometimes even believing their own BS. We had a new owner once who moved in and proceded to cause some noisy party issues. After some residents complained, a couple of board members knocked on his door and told him, "we can get you kicked out of here". The guy sold his house and moved a year later, but that was an absolutely false representation on the part of those board members; owners here have zero power to "kick out" another owner.

Another time the Treasurer resigned bur remained on the board. When no director volunteered to be the Treasurer, the board voted to remove the ex-Treasurer from the board. The board had no authority to do that and luckily cooler heads prevailed and they realized their mistake before embarrassing themselves any further.

They can fine you (or the owner/landlord). They almost certainly cannot physically take your dog away from you.
JasonM14 (Florida)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Are there any rules on how they go about fining? Fine costs? They said in the letter they would recoup any legal fees from me or something along the lines of if legal action or mediation is initiated I'm responsible for those fees.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Florida's HOA law, FS 720.305 says, "Each member and the member’s tenants, guests, and invitees, and each association, are governed by, and must comply with, this chapter, the governing documents of the community, and the rules of the association."

Your landlord should have provided you with copies of the documents, including rules and regulations, that everyone must comply with. The exact details and fining procedures are probably spelled out in those documents.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Jason, I really think, imo, it's about the noise. Just comply already and then MOVE.

Fining, costs, etc. are the Owner's problem though s/he very likely will pass the a fines on to you!
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/15/2016 6:03 PM
They need to send notice to your landlord ONLY.

Not necessarily true.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/15/2016 6:36 PM
You have no signed contract with them.

If the lease references the HOA, they are an interested third party - not just any old third party as Melissa suggests. Makes a difference.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 01/15/2016 9:49 PM
Jason, I really think, imo, it's about the noise. Just comply already and then MOVE.

Fining, costs, etc. are the Owner's problem though s/he very likely will pass the a fines on to you!

Good advice. You'll be gone before the HOA takes any kind of action - other than attempts to fine and recover costs - which your landlord can fight or pass on to you - depends on what your lease says.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JasonM14 on 01/15/2016 1:12 PM
. . . barking and got of(F) his leash a couple times. He's a gentle giant I shall say. Wouldn't hur(T) anyone, never gone after anyone. . .

Jason M14Fla :
With the VERY GREATEST of respect & as an over-the-top dog lover myself, may I give you some advice. Maybe you don't want to hear it from a foreigner. But here it is :

IF YOU LOVE YOUR DOG, keep it leashed & fully controlled in public including any unfenced yard.

If you love it, keep it properly fenced to protect it & other people & animals. Failure to do so in a state with 'strict' or 'full' liability for dog injuries etc, could cost you a lot of bucks without your dog showing any prior propensity.

Keep it occupied without barking nor otherwise disturbing your neighbours. I hope you are NOT leaving it tied up outside.

I say this after seeing fear even of my large leashed dogs, groomed immaculately.

The physically vulnerable are prone to be injured by well-intended canine exuberance. Think broken hips, sometimes a death sentence for the elderly.

OR maybe your current or future neighbours have lived in totalitarian states where authorities used dogs to suppress civil liberties. Or from long-ago civil disorders. That fear I was initially surprised to see in the faces of neighbours formerly resident in totalitarian countries.

Loose dogs are targets or sources of attacks on others.

Over the decades I have reluctantly come to believe that most dogs are NOT served to live in compact living/ highrises etc where they may have to share elevators with owners and may a lot of nuisance if left alone.

JasonM14 (Florida)
Posts: 10
Posted:
i spoke with my landlord this morning she wants him walked by one of us from now on. (I hope I can move soon) ALSO we are looking into a doggy day care for the time being. since he is 90lbs + and 3 kids at home it is hard for my wife to leash him and take him out. We usually put him on a tie out, but he has his doggy door to our screened in area that would go directly to our sliding glass door, and he would come to that when he is ready to come in, and we let him in. so we wouldn't leave him out there all day. Just a head ache, my wife wants to get rid of him a lot of times, but I don't. I feel extremely bad, partially because i had to surrender 2 dogs a while ago that were both angels. one got adopted, the other got put down because he had a leash aggression. it was a very very hard thing to do.
DjB2 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 49
Posted:
Dog issues here are NOT an HOA issue, but rather a Township government and enforcement issue. In the past we have received a few complaints about dog issues such as not cleaning up after them, too much barking, or getting off lead and attacking someone. In our municipality these are all Township issues, and we tell anyone with a complaint to contact them and they handle it then, with inspections, and fines if necessary. We the HOA just stay out of it.
MichelleK5 (New York)
Posts: 161
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JasonM14 on 01/15/2016 1:12 PM
I got a letter from my hoa stating my dog is a nuisance from barking and got of his leash a couple times. He's a gentle giant I shall say. Wouldn't hurt anyone, never gone after anyone. So this letter is from hoa attorney stating if he's not kept on a leash and continues barking they are going to come and take him. Is this legal?

Jason, I don't believe your dog can be taken away from you unless it's attacks someone/another dog. Either way, since you're moving, I wouldn't worry about it too much. It's between the HOA and the owner of the property.

Regarding your dog getting off lead- it doesn't matter at all how friendly he is. He can scare a child, or an adult who's scared of dogs. He can run into other dogs that aren't as friendly and if he got too close, he could get hurt himself. It's just a terrible idea to have your dog off lead in public places- absolutely terrible.

We have two English Bulldogs. One loves everyone, and all other animals. My other loves people, but hates other dogs.
We've had an off-lead dog run onto our property to say hello. Mine went after him like a crazy dog, my husband had to run and tackle him to the ground. If that little friendly dog took just a few more steps, he would of been my bulldogs afternoon snack
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
As DjB2 noted, dog issues can be a government issue (Animal Control in my town) and you can be FINED for not cleaning up after them, creating a nuisance (because of the barking), not keeping it on a leash when outside, etc. Your dog may very well be a sweetheart, but it’s your responsibility as its owner to make sure he’s properly trained, regardless of where you live. Why not check with your local Humane Society to see if there are any low cost or free classes (or at least some tips) on controlling the barking, teaching it to heal, etc. Or talk to your vet.

It seems to me this board was a little heavy handed in referring this to the attorney, if that was their first step. In our association; we usually send a letter to the homeowner with a copy to the tenant, and then they can either fix it or the homeowner can speak to the board on your behalf. When that doesn't work, bring in the attorney if necessary. In your case, I suspect your landlady could have prevented this by speaking to you first. Also, did any of your neighbors complained to you or her directly about the dog? If so, and one or both of you blew it off (especially the landlord-homeowner), that could be why the attorney got involved. Some people don’t mind barking while it drives others crazy. I hope you take heed of what Bob said.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

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