FAILURE TO DISCLOSE FINANCIAL DATA

JoanneD1 (Arizona)
Posts: 447

Posted:

Hello everyone and hoping all will have a wonderful Holiday.

I have recently noted that the general ledger of my HOA has been altered midyear. Categories have been removed along with their respective budgeted amounts. This "alteration" makes it impossible for an owner to "follow the money" and to keep track of the expenses.

I also noted that there was some reporting of expenses involved with a social event HOWEVER, I was told by the chair of the event that money had been "donated" by three of the HOA vendors to help offset the expense of the social. I have asked for a full accounting of both expenses and the donations. The manager refuses to give me the donation amount and has put me off by saying that the board will answer that question in the January open meeting. While the manager has provided the receipts for the expenses, I am concerned about the lack of transparency as to the donations. Does this pass the smell test?? I told the manager that I cannot attend the January meeting and no owner should have to wait for what should be a straight forward answer on this.

Between the changes in the general ledger and now this....I don't get a good sense of financial security. Am I wrong?

Thanks again.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Whenever something isn't easily transparent or not willing to be disclosed it's easy to have the perception that something is being hidden and it's being hidden because something was improperly done. This perception may or may not be correct. The only way is to follow the money and, even though it might not be easy, it can be done.

I'm not sure why you are worried about the "donations."

For example: I'll provide plates and cups for the event. The only thing you will see is the lack of an expense for plates and cups. There would be no documentation on how much I personally spent on those supplies.

Why not ask the chair what was donated and bypass the manager.
Approach it with, I'd like to know who donated so I can send them a thank you note.

JoanneD1 (Arizona)
Posts: 447

Posted:

Thanks Tim. I have asked the chair and she has told me but only the expense of the social is listed on the general ledger but there is no recording of the donations. I know that the donations by the vendors more than covered the expenses. The social chair found out about these donations because one of the board members insisted on going shopping with the social chair and the board member had 3 gift cards. We don't know what happened to the surplus amount on the cards and apparently no one is very willing to tell me at this point. The social chair is also going to question the board member about it and see what she will say.

I don't want to think that bad things are going on with our finances but when changes occur and one does not get answers....it is not a good feeling.
Thanks
Joanne

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

It seems that you might make a request in writing to the board to reply to your question(s) at the open meeting that you cannot attend. Request that the Board's reply be recorded in the minutes.

Meantime, have you made your requests for answers in wiring to the PM? And perhaps copied the board? Or a board officer?

Are your social events a part of your HOA's budget? Or do members pay to attend?

Do donations by vendors seem somehow crooked to you? As if they're trying to assure that their contracts are renewed? Were these vendors' gifts acknowledged at the social event or, say, in your newsletter? We've never been so lucky as to get such donations, but I know we'd acknowledge them!

You say you don't want to think bad things are going on, but in the past you've though that many bad things are going on if I remember right.

I wonder if you;d mind in the future placing your Subject in small letters so they don't sen like urgent emergencies. Thanks.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JoanneD1 on 12/22/2015 4:21 PM
I have asked the chair and she has told me but only the expense of the social is listed on the general ledger but there is no recording of the donations. I know that the donations by the vendors more than covered the expenses. The social chair found out about these donations because one of the board members insisted on going shopping with the social chair and the board member had 3 gift cards. We don't know what happened to the surplus amount on the cards and apparently no one is very willing to tell me at this point. The social chair is also going to question the board member about it and see what she will say.

I don't want to think that bad things are going on with our finances but when changes occur and one does not get answers....it is not a good feeling.

Interesting description. If the board member showed up with 3 $100 gift cards, spent $201, and pocketed the remaining $99, I would have one reaction. On the other hand, if the board member showed up with 3 $25 gift cards, spent $71.24, and pocketed the remaining $3.76, I would have a very different reaction. Which reaction were you looking for Joanne?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

JoanneD1 (Arizona)
Posts: 447

Posted:

Kerry...these donations have never been mentioned and the only reason I know about them is that I commented to the social chair how reasonable the costs were when I saw the general ledger and she retorted that the whole event did not cost the HOA anything. There has never been one word about this. There are always issues in my HOA because the BOD and PM leave much to be desired. I could write a book. And, yes, I can type the subject matter in small letters.

NpS....All I want is transparency and full disclosure of income and expense. I don't think that is too much to ask. I want to be able to follow the money and if there was disclosure, I would not have to be asking these questions in the first place. The fact that the general ledger has been altered midyear is bothersome. Who changes the format in midstream??? Does not sound like good accounting practices to me but I am not a CPA.

I can't help but wonder why or how the vendors even heard about the social in the first place. We have a quarter million dollars in reserves so it is not like the HOA needs to money to throw a Free party once every couple of years. I will ask that it be put into the minutes and thanks for that suggestion.
Merry Merry & Happy New Year to all.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JoanneD1 on 12/22/2015 8:00 PM
NpS....All I want is transparency and full disclosure of income and expense. I don't think that is too much to ask. I want to be able to follow the money and if there was disclosure, I would not have to be asking these questions in the first place. The fact that the general ledger has been altered midyear is bothersome. Who changes the format in midstream??? Does not sound like good accounting practices to me but I am not a CPA.

You ask for transparency and full disclosure. So did I. You asked for numbers. So did I.

I will try once more:
What was the total dollar amount of the gift cards? What was the amount left over? Why do you think that these numbers aren't important for us to know?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

I can see where there's cause for concern. Like NpS says, my first thought was, say, 3 vendors give the president (or whoever) gift cards worth 200 each. The president purchases goods and services for the social event that cost a total of 300 and now has the unused $300 balance on those gift cards sitting in his own wallet. No accountability is bad. The fact that it all seems to be hush hush does make you wonder what's going on. I think a quid pro quo, if there is one, would be quite illegal since it's essentially bribery of a director who will work in the future to make sure those vendors keep getting the association's business. Not that that's happening, but there needs to be a whole lot more transparency, I think.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Joanne

Exactly, how and why would you disclose a'donation" from a vendor on the general ledger. I own a management company and I would never include that on a GL. I would of course expense anything over and above what the donations didn't cover.

There is nothing called a "free" party. It could be the manager asked the vendors if they had any funds for their customers. Maybe the manager donated what was given to them.

You had a party that cost the association nothing, why the "beef"?

You mentioned that items were re-categorized. That happens throughout the year, but in the end, are the actual numbers off or just redistributed?

If the answer is nothing has really changed, then the answer to your question is yes, you are wrong!

Failure to disclose financial data? I am seeing new things everyday. WOW.

JoanneD1 (Arizona)
Posts: 447

Posted:

Thanks so much for the "fresh eye" comments to my queries. After reading and considering all of them, I guess the consensus is that I am being picky. The social chair tells me the gift cards had just shy of $100 as the unused portion. So maybe that is not a significant amount of money but I still would like to know what happened to it.

We have great struggles in my community as far as what money is spent where. We lost a lovely tree in the entry due to a wind storm and an owner wanted to donate funds for replacement and the PM said the HOA could not take it because of some kind of tax complication. I am trying to understand what the difference is between the vendor donations and an owner donation and asked the manager and she will not answer that question either. Is not a donation a donation?

Quid pro quo.....exactly Richard .

Thanks again all.

JoanneD1 (Arizona)
Posts: 447

Posted:

My error.....quid pro quo....Geno.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Joanne,

A donation is, indeed, a donation.

As for the tree, the Association could have allowed the owner to plant a tree in the common area vs. accepting money. This skirts the tax issue. Perhaps, the gift card (vs. money) also skirts the tax issue.

Yes, I know that in the eyes of the IRS, either one should be reported as income. However, if the money isn't directly deposited into the Associations accounts, the IRS will likely not question it (unless someone directly makes a specific complaint).

JoanneD1 (Arizona)
Posts: 447

Posted:

Tim....thanks for the reply....some of the difficulty with any and all of this is that the PM makes many incorrect references to state statutes and our governing docs and the board sits in silence and asks no questions. It is somewhat a case of the blind leading the blind and ANYONE who does question or challenge is tagged troublemaker. I am guessing there are many ways to be creative when taking a donation but to not take one and accept others.....who is the loser? The HOA.

I am most curious as to why the PM would forward me the expenses yet refuse to touch on the subject of the vendor donations and pushed that onto the Board? Her company was one of the vendors to donate. There is not executive session stuff.

I am well familiar with remedies however, there is great apathy here so change is nearly impossible and when they do make change, it goes from bad to worse.

Merry Christmas!

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Re: the tree. If you know this generous owner, why not encourage her/him to write a description & cost of the replacement tree s/he wants to donate and submit it to the Board for its consideration?

I'm feeling that too many requests, etc., in your HOA go verbally to the PM which should go to the Board in writing for their monthly agendas.

I'd asked about your Social Committee, how it's funded, etc., but I don't see a reply. Ours has a budget, and came in under budget this year by several hundred dollars. And they also have about $1,200 worth of beverages that will take them well into '16. If they'd received the donations that yours received, I' pretty sure they'd have spent the entire amount on things to use in the future, non-s consumable, for instance, or beverages that store well.

I believe you've noted in the past that the PM misquotes statutes and the board believes her (hi?). On a different thread, maybe you can give us examples of how the PM misquotes statutes that misleads the Board & Owners too.

JoanneD1 (Arizona)
Posts: 447

Posted:

Kerry....thank you for your thoughtful comments and questions. The tree donation by the homeowner was made publicly at a board meeting and the PM gave her explanation to the board and the board sat in silence.

The social category has a set budget amount and there have not been any socials in the community for the last 2 years.

I FINALLY got a response from the PM and the board member who was given a $300 gift card from the landscape vendor who knows he is under stiff scrutiny and will most likely be replace in the next couple of months. The board member explains that she intended to use the balance for other "social" expenses that might arise. This whole thing does not pass my smell test.

Examples PM quotes regarding state statutes:

1. PM tells owner that the reason the HOA has no nominating committee is because there is a statute that prevents it! When asked for the statute....the PM admits error and tell the owner that she should go ahead and form a nominating committee....OMG...our By laws clearly state the BOD can only form committees

2. PM tells owner that a letter assigning a special agent to be her spokesperson must be signed by a notary when in fact the owner is submitting the letter directly to the PM in the presence of the agent who happens to be an attorney

3. PM tells owners there is not self help clause in the governing docs when in fact there are

4. PM agrees that mailboxes are federal property and therefore the HOA does not have the right to paint them

5. PM sits in silence when board member tells owner at annual meeting that if a board member leaves midterm, the HOA will go back and look at the voting results and select the next board member based on the results. Clearly stated in docs that the board will appoint.

6. PM sits in silence as BOD approves procedure for violation appeal that omits state statute that owner can appeal in open meeting NOT just executive session.

And the board thinks this is a good manager.

It never quits here and not sure it ever will. It is the blind leading the blind and no one seems to care.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JoanneD1 on 12/23/2015 7:45 AM

the board member who was given a $300 gift card from the landscape vendor who knows he is under stiff scrutiny and will most likely be replace in the next couple of months.

Typically, if the Association is paying a vendor enough that they are willing to give back $300 or (in my opinion) any amount, then the Association is paying too much for those services and should solicit bids at the next opportunity (typically at the end of a contract). At the very least, by soliciting bids, the Association will find out if they have been paying the going rate or not.

Of course, if you like your current contractor, you can always invite them to match the lowest bid (we did for trash/recycling and saved almost $10,000 per year).

JoanneD1 (Arizona)
Posts: 447

Posted:

Tim, thanks so much for you comments. This vendor knows there are folks who are unhappy with their job performance. I have been involved in HOA almost 20 years and no vendor has ever given any HOA I was involved with a gift of any kind so I am curious as to the conversation that took place between the vendor and someone in the first place. Just seems irregular to me. I can only imagine the perks the management companies get.....par for the course? Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

Joanne

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Joanne

Why do I believe the overall issue is not a few gifts cards, but your overall dissatisfaction with how your BOD operates?

I am not defending the BOD but if you want to bring changes, do not get hung up on minutiae.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Joanne,

Remember to keep an open mind.
The issue is with your Board members not the PM
The Board should seek advice from the PM but not have them be the only source of advice or the only interpretation of statutes. They should (but may or may not) take the time to do the research required themselves also.

I do have a couple of comments:

Quote:

Posted By JoanneD1 on 12/23/2015 7:45 AM

Examples PM quotes regarding state statutes:
5. PM sits in silence when board member tells owner at annual meeting that if a board member leaves midterm, the HOA will go back and look at the voting results and select the next board member based on the results. Clearly stated in docs that the board will appoint.

First, I would be upset if a contractor corrected me in front of the general membership unless I was grossly mistaken. In the example you gave, the PM should have been silent.

As you stated, the Board appoints individuals to fill vacancies.
How the Board decides who to consider is up to them. It would make sense to contact other candidates who didn't get elected but showed an interest in serving. Since the above example is more of an explanation on how the Board might consider who to appoint, I see nothing wrong with the example shown above.

Quote:

Posted By JoanneD1 on 12/23/2015 7:45 AM

6. PM sits in silence as BOD approves procedure for violation appeal that omits state statute that owner can appeal in open meeting NOT just executive session.

What is unknown is if the PM was asked for advice or not, if advice was provided and rejected (in private or public) and did anyone on the Board take the time to review proposed resolutions against applicable statutes.

JoanneD1 (Arizona)
Posts: 447

Posted:

John...you are correct and I do keep beating a dead horse. I feel very frustrated as I do not have a solution to bring about the changes that need to happen. The membership is apathetic and old guard has many supporters. Litigation is not feasible and would serve no purpose. I financially cannot make a property change at this time or I would be long gone. Unfortunately all my attempts to turn a blind eye have failed. I need to keep trying.

Thanks.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Joanne: " The tree donation by the homeowner was made publicly at a board meeting and the PM gave her explanation to the board and the board sat in silence."

Again, I suggest that owner put the offer to purchase a specific tree writing and do the purchase on her/his own. A "public" verbal request doesn't mean much. In fact, in CA, the owners request would go on the next month's agenda. Doesn't AZ have a similar law about agenda items being posted xx days before an open meeting?

Your #3 above: What is a "self help" clause?

I agree with Tim on your #5. the certainly may decide to select a replacement in this way. Do I remember w right that you applied for such a vacancy?

#6. Must the board allow the appeal in an open mtg.? In CA, such an owner may request the case be discussed in a open mtg., but the board isn't required to grant that request. What about AZ?

Is there a reason you didn't speak up when the PM made the mistake in #1? In AZ, I believe that owners can speak to every agenda item as it's being discussed. In any case, I don't think this deserves an "OMG" -- it's actually a small matter.

Melissa is our resident mailbox expert and may have some words about whether or not they can be painted.

#2. Does that happen to involve you? Sounds familiar. And is the attorney a notary (if really required)?

To be honest, Joanne, even if your HOA members weren't 'apathetic," I don't think you'd be able to gin up much outrage with the examples you've given us.

It is a shame that the Board is so gullible and ignorant. But this does happen in HOAs. Do you think you can suggest to the Board at the next meeting that your are able to attend, that the MC CEO give them a 2-hour seminar on the basics of your docs & of AZ statute?

JoanneD1 (Arizona)
Posts: 447

Posted:

Kerry...thank you and I will try to briefly address you items:

"Again, I suggest that owner put the offer to purchase a specific tree writing and do the purchase on her/his own. A "public" verbal request doesn't mean much. In fact, in CA, the owners request would go on the next month's agenda. Doesn't AZ have a similar law about agenda items being posted xx days before an open meeting?"

I am not aware of any such law and wish there were one. The owners who attend the meetings get the agendas at the meeting.

"Your #3 above: What is a "self help" clause?"

This is a statement in the CC&R's that gives the HOA legal permission to enter an owners outside property(no trespassing) to remedy an item that the owner refuses to cure himself after he has received all the proper notices. It also permits the HOA to legally charge the owner for any and all costs incurred to make the remedy. The items could involve landscape or structural problems.

"I agree with Tim on your #5. the certainly may decide to select a replacement in this way. Do I remember w right that you applied for such a vacancy?"

You recall correctly...I had one friend on the board that want me to volunteer to fill a vacancy and of course that was denied.

"#6. Must the board allow the appeal in an open mtg.? In CA, such an owner may request the case be discussed in a open mtg., but the board isn't required to grant that request. What about AZ?"

AZ statute gives the choice to the owner NOT the BOD.

"Is there a reason you didn't speak up when the PM made the mistake in #1? In AZ, I believe that owners can speak to every agenda item as it's being discussed. In any case, I don't think this deserves an "OMG" -- it's actually a small matter."

Kerry, as you might imagine, I am very vocal at the meetings and find myself having to prioritize what I speak to and how smart is a manager when she tells an owner to form a nominating committee without the blessing of the sitting board? The PM is direct conflict of the document.

"#2. Does that happen to involve you? Sounds familiar. And is the attorney a notary (if really required)? "

I believe an attorney is a notary and yes it did involve me on the issue of changing the governing documents without owner input and legal fees.

I like your suggestion about the education on the various items. I can tell you there is no interest. I attended one board meeting and the management company brought 5 employees to explain the use of their portal to the owners. Only problem was there was no advance notice to the owners of the presentation, only 5 owners of 174 were at the meeting and the slide presentation broke before it even started. It was hysterical. Forgive me if I am getting the last laugh. You can't write this stuff.

Thanks again....I think we need to close the book on this until the next mess and there is no doubt there will be one.

BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JoanneD1 on 12/23/2015 10:55 AM
. . "Your #3 above: What is a "self help" clause?"

This is a statement in the CC&R's that gives the HOA legal permission to enter an owners outside property(no trespassing) to remedy an item that the owner refuses to cure himself after he has received all the proper notices.

It also permits the HOA to legally charge the owner for any and all costs incurred to make the remedy. The items could involve landscape or structural problems. . .

JoanneD1 (Arizona) With greatest respect, may I suggest you re-label 'self-help' to something like "Only with direct state legislative authority, entry to rectify & charge-back".

Valid examples may be express legislative authority for a condo corporation to enter to rectify some sort of a shortfall of owner maintenance like a structural danger or fire risk. But exercising that with opposition, is high risk without some judicial or offsite tribunal authority.

Thousands of CCRs & condo governance documents may purport to bless just about anything. Without express direct legislative authority, they may be voodoo.

Respectfully, your property manager may be totally correct or may mean that such intervention has no legal basis.

JoanneD1 (Arizona)
Posts: 447

Posted:

Bob...thanks so much for this insight.

At our HOA annual meeting, an owner asked a question about a problem with a property and wanted to know what could be done about it. I used this term because the owner of the management company posed the question to the PM at said meeting and the PM said there was no such thing. I would hope that if this situation were to occur, the BOD would consult with legal before proceeding. But I totally understand what your are saying.

I am always grateful for thoughtful input and consider myself very lucky to have access to this group.

Happy Holidays!

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JoanneD1 on 12/22/2015 3:56 PM
I have recently noted that the general ledger of my HOA has been altered midyear. Categories have been removed along with their respective budgeted amounts. This "alteration" makes it impossible for an owner to "follow the money" and to keep track of the expenses.

I also noted that there was some reporting of expenses involved with a social event HOWEVER, I was told by the chair of the event that money had been "donated" by three of the HOA vendors to help offset the expense of the social. I have asked for a full accounting of both expenses and the donations. The manager refuses to give me the donation amount and has put me off by saying that the board will answer that question in the January open meeting. While the manager has provided the receipts for the expenses, I am concerned about the lack of transparency as to the donations. Does this pass the smell test?? I told the manager that I cannot attend the January meeting and no owner should have to wait for what should be a straight forward answer on this.

Between the changes in the general ledger and now this....I don't get a good sense of financial security. Am I wrong?

Getting back to your original question - Yes I do think you are wrong. It's not your job to micromanage the board and management company's behavior. Nor do you have the authority to hijack the priorities that the board should be able to set for the MC.

As Richard said, it's not uncommon for GL re-assignments to take place during the course of the year and a vendor gift card wouldn't even show up as an expense on the HOA books. If you think that the money should be followed, then make sure that your books are audited. A CPA follows professional standards that include "independence" and assuring that the audited financials are not "materially misleading." Your inherent biases prevent you from making an "independent" evaluation, and your persistent demands for accountability on trivialities demonstrates that you don't have the expertise to assess what is and what isn't "materially misleading."

After all the insinuations you made about improprieties with the gift cards, it turns out that $200 was spent on an HOA event and the other $100 is being saved for a future HOA event. And when you finally decided to reveal this information, you put in caps that you FINALLY received the information from the MC as if you were somehow entitled to make these inquiries and to get answers in the time frame that suits you. I cannot agree with your sense of entitlement.

You think that you shouldn't have to wait for a January meeting. I think you have no right to demand anything else. I'm sure that your organizing docs give you the right to inspect the HOA records. But I seriously doubt that your docs give you more than that. Who are you to say that no owner should have to wait for the January meeting? That's not your call.

My board has been waiting for certain information from our MC for 2 months now. They in turn have been in touch with our auditing firm more than once trying to tie together certain information from the last audit. In 30 days, we have to put out a budget that depends on the information that our CPA and MC come together on. That puts our board under quite a bit of pressure. If we learned that one of our homeowners was diverting our MC's attention from the priorities that we set, we would be angry.

It is the board's job to set the priorities and the agenda. I don't see where you care enough to give your board the leeway to do their job.

I don't object to strong voices that tell us what we should be doing differently. I do object to people who think that they should be the ones to set the standards of performance. The rights and responsibilities of each of the participants are set by your corporate structure. I do think that you could benefit from revisiting your own role in these relationships and the effect of your own behavior on your board.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

JoanneD1 (Arizona)
Posts: 447

Posted:

Happy Holidays.....

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

You know, Joanne, there's a lot to consider in NpS' reply.

I remember when I first moved here and was elected to the board 18 mo. later there were many topics that I though that mattered sooooo much. But, I learned, in the overall scheme of things, they just didn't rise to be compelling big issues. They were small matters. So I let go of some.

A man was elected treasurer about a year later and was intent on "finding" all manner of "unexplained" operating budget expenses. He was convinced our MC was taking advantage of us. One by one these seeming "issues" were explained to him. I remember one question: "What is $150 for 'Name labels?'" Well they were actually metal name badges for our security officers. And on & on about tiny postage costs, etc. All "Al" could see were the trees and he was incapable of seeing the forest where, a few years later, we found major big dollar errors in one of our three budgets. Anyway, he resigned after 3 months.

I learned as much as I could about my own gov. docs and state statutes. And I try to pick my battles carefully. In your case, Joanne, do try to keep your personal grudges out of the way of your overall life. Happy holidays to you too.

I still might post my questions about a very petty agenda item, though, in the next day or two!

JoanneD1 (Arizona)
Posts: 447

Posted:

Thanks for the input Kerry. Don't anyone think that I have not soul searched my intentions.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JoanneD1 on 12/24/2015 4:46 PM
Thanks for the input Kerry. Don't anyone think that I have not soul searched my intentions.

IMO, not a question of your character. I have not doubt that want to be a positive force in your community. The question is whether your chosen tactics work for or against you.

Part of the problem is that as a homeowner, you wear two hats.

1. As a customer of your HOA through your MC, you are entitled to inquire about your personal account, complain about your neighbors, and expect equal treatment among people with similar rights to you. The responses you get should be both timely and consistent with the rules and regs of your HOA. If not, you should be able to take it to your board - but they may have a different opinion about how important your issue is in the overall scheme of things.

2. As an owner/member of your HOA, you have the right to elect and replace board members. You have a right to inspect the books and the right to open meetings and elections as prescribed by state statute/docs. But you don't have the right to direct traffic at the detail level.

I think it's easy to confuse the distinctions between these two hats. If you put both roles in perspective, you could contribute more and achieve better outcomes. Just my opinion tho.

MC and HNY.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

JoanneD1 (Arizona)
Posts: 447

Posted:

Thank you for these latest comments. I have attempted to approach the BOD in many different ways. I have attempted to serve on the BOD either by election or appointment. I guess to sum it up, the board does not want any interference and are totally threatened by those who express a difference of opinion and who might be knowledgable about the docs and the laws.

A new owner is trying to make some headway and is being treated in the same dismissive manner. It is just sad and disappointing to think that HOA living can be such a wonderful experience but such is not the case in my community.

Hope all your Holidays are wonderful.

JoanneD1 (Arizona)
Posts: 447

Posted:

NpS......I am in total agreement with you on your two hat concept. Believe it or not, I have put myself in the place of these directors but there is no rhyme or reason to some of the decisions that they make. And they have cost the owners lots of money for no good reason. Wasted money with bad results and no one seems to care. I recently withdrew from spearheading a project to update the owners directory. I did so because it is a very labor intensive project and the BOD was not willing to print it in booklet form...they were only willing to email it and we only have the email addresses for 60 percent of the owners. and on and on.....Thank you again...
Joanne

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By NpS on 12/24/2015 8:36 AM

Posted By JoanneD1 on 12/22/2015 3:56 PM
I have recently noted that the general ledger of my HOA has been altered midyear. Categories have been removed along with their respective budgeted amounts. This "alteration" makes it impossible for an owner to "follow the money" and to keep track of the expenses.

I also noted that there was some reporting of expenses involved with a social event HOWEVER, I was told by the chair of the event that money had been "donated" by three of the HOA vendors to help offset the expense of the social. I have asked for a full accounting of both expenses and the donations. The manager refuses to give me the donation amount and has put me off by saying that the board will answer that question in the January open meeting. While the manager has provided the receipts for the expenses, I am concerned about the lack of transparency as to the donations. Does this pass the smell test?? I told the manager that I cannot attend the January meeting and no owner should have to wait for what should be a straight forward answer on this.

Between the changes in the general ledger and now this....I don't get a good sense of financial security. Am I wrong?

Getting back to your original question - Yes I do think you are wrong. It's not your job to micromanage the board and management company's behavior. Nor do you have the authority to hijack the priorities that the board should be able to set for the MC.

As Richard said, it's not uncommon for GL re-assignments to take place during the course of the year and a vendor gift card wouldn't even show up as an expense on the HOA books. If you think that the money should be followed, then make sure that your books are audited. A CPA follows professional standards that include "independence" and assuring that the audited financials are not "materially misleading." Your inherent biases prevent you from making an "independent" evaluation, and your persistent demands for accountability on trivialities demonstrates that you don't have the expertise to assess what is and what isn't "materially misleading."

After all the insinuations you made about improprieties with the gift cards, it turns out that $200 was spent on an HOA event and the other $100 is being saved for a future HOA event. And when you finally decided to reveal this information, you put in caps that you FINALLY received the information from the MC as if you were somehow entitled to make these inquiries and to get answers in the time frame that suits you. I cannot agree with your sense of entitlement.

You think that you shouldn't have to wait for a January meeting. I think you have no right to demand anything else. I'm sure that your organizing docs give you the right to inspect the HOA records. But I seriously doubt that your docs give you more than that. Who are you to say that no owner should have to wait for the January meeting? That's not your call.

My board has been waiting for certain information from our MC for 2 months now. They in turn have been in touch with our auditing firm more than once trying to tie together certain information from the last audit. In 30 days, we have to put out a budget that depends on the information that our CPA and MC come together on. That puts our board under quite a bit of pressure. If we learned that one of our homeowners was diverting our MC's attention from the priorities that we set, we would be angry.

It is the board's job to set the priorities and the agenda. I don't see where you care enough to give your board the leeway to do their job.

I don't object to strong voices that tell us what we should be doing differently. I do object to people who think that they should be the ones to set the standards of performance. The rights and responsibilities of each of the participants are set by your corporate structure. I do think that you could benefit from revisiting your own role in these relationships and the effect of your own behavior on your board.

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Well NpS sounds like you hit the nail on the head. Much to do about very little.
JoAnne is unhappy with the current board situation and can see nothing else.

The vendor some people are unhappy with hands your property $300 problem.
The expenses only cost $200 problem.
The MC doesn't drop everything and explain to your satisfaction the status of this $100 surplus problem.
The board does not simply agree with everything you think problem.
The owners are apathetic problem.
The contact list will be provided by e-mail not booklet problem.
My guess JoAnne has set the tone LONG AGO for her relationship with this board and MC. And is now viewed as a PIA. Demanding immediate accounting explanations over GIFTS and SURPLUSES.

A lot of concern and worry about nothing and what seems like a situation JoAnne is unable to change.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JoanneD1 on 12/25/2015 6:05 AM
NpS......I am in total agreement with you on your two hat concept. Believe it or not, I have put myself in the place of these directors but there is no rhyme or reason to some of the decisions that they make. And they have cost the owners lots of money for no good reason. Wasted money with bad results and no one seems to care. I recently withdrew from spearheading a project to update the owners directory. I did so because it is a very labor intensive project and the BOD was not willing to print it in booklet form...they were only willing to email it and we only have the email addresses for 60 percent of the owners. and on and on.

Unfortunately, I don't see where you get what I'm saying at all. First you say that you understand my two-hat concept. And in the very next sentence, you say that you put yourself in the place of the board - people who wear an entirely different hat than the two hats that I described for you. Until you wear that third hat, you have no idea what it's like.

Although you've never worn that third hat, you then go on to make unsupported generalizations about the board making baseless decisions, wasting money, and standing in the way of your email project.

I see no self reflection. All I see is another rant against your board and an unwillingness to take any responsibility for the rift between yourself and the board. There are things you could be doing to make things better if you were willing to make an attitude adjustment.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I think someone should run and sit on their board for a year... I have to agree with NPS on this one...

The board that replaced me after I left were full of people who thought they "knew better". I decided to stay on as a board member because I knew better they didn't... Reason number 1? One of the new board members remarked to me that our HOA had 5K in the bank and yet I was denying them their special project. (Repainting the inside of the clubhouse which was NOT needed. She was a designer). So one of the first meetings they had? Well let's paint the inside of the clubhouse! We have 5K in the budget! She's been a big fat liar this whole time to us all... Well the 5K? It was at the BEGINNING of the month when we had just COLLECTED the money! The rest of month is when we paid ALL the bills from it. Meaning at the END of the month the balance was 0!

You can't just look at the bank account once. Things have to be broken down and patterns established before you go spend money. The new board went and approved this project just to find out at the end of the month, we were broke as a joke! They ended up levying a special assessment. (Which I fought due to how/why it was done). Something when I was president I never ever did.

It took about 6 months before the new board came back to me with an apology and asking for advice. They really had screwed things up. Funniest comment was from the new president to me. "How did you ever do it?". I just smiled. If you think you can do better, then do. Otherwise let the other people do their jobs till you get the opportunity to do so.

Former HOA President