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JoanneD1 (Arizona)
Posts: 447
Posted:
I DO NOT read anything in my CCR&S or By-laws that addresses the BOD power to make a material change/alteration to the common area walls. Were the wall in need of painting....Yes. However, the color of some of the walls was changed that has adversely affected not only the appearance of the property, which I guess is subjective, but the color is so dark that the community name on the entry markers is now very difficult to read at night and there is discussion on how to remedy this. This "unintended consequence" of painting the markers is going to result is added expense. My concern is that there was no owner vote on a project that impacts the appearance and could affect the property values as a result. Is there any AZ statutes that apply? I have read some legal judgement in Florida that do not support the action of the BOARD. I thank you in advance for help on this.
DonA2 (Arizona)
Posts: 170
Posted:
Was the painting and the colors discussed in the meeting? I'm sure it was, but did you attend?

I know when they painted our walls, they had 3ftx3ft spots painted on the walls of the different colors they were considering and asked for community feedback. I wasn't thrilled with the final color choice, but now that it's been on the walls for a year or so, it's not too bad.

What was the board's reasoning behind the drastic change? And you are worried about redoing the sign adding extra expense, wouldn't repainting the walls again add even more expense?
JoanneD1 (Arizona)
Posts: 447
Posted:
Thanks Don....I was in attendance at the meeting along with about 5 other owners, one or two who did not seem to mind then color change and the reasoning given by the board was that the darker color might conceal blemishes that are sure to develop in the future. I did not speak against the color change as I had been involved in a very contentious discussion just prior and they would have had no patience to hear more from me. The color change was barely referenced in a community newsletter and had owners who were not tasked with the chore to repaint houses eight years ago, they would have no clue as to what was being done. In addition to the color change, the board said the HOA was NOT legally permitted to paint the rusted facings of mailboxes that are built into block stucco structures. A BOD said they were federal property and the cost to paint the stucco was going to have the added expense of papering out the metal. When I saw the prep for the structures, I immediately contacted the BOD and the PM and urged them to halt the papering and research what they were doing. they did not and so now they are getting bids to paint the rusted metal facings of the mailboxes. One cannot write these acts of negligence.

I have copied exact working from all minutes and other communications to owners regarding the project and at NO TIME is it written that there was specifically going to be a color change....they referenced the areas to be painted by names and color codes.

I do not know what the intent is to correct the inability for passerby to read the letters at night. Painting them a lighter color would not enhance the appearance of the markers.....illumination has been discussed and should be done. Maybe that will be the upside of the miscalculation and it is something that owners have been requesting for several years. I read in Florida that the BOD was made to redo their project if they could not get a majority of owners to approve what their board has done.

Thank you.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Read your documents again - there may be language that gives the board the authority to enact additional rules provided they don't contradict the CCRs. For instance, the documents may give the Board the power to enforce the CCRs, which also say owners can't make changes to the exterior of their homes or the common areas without authorization from the board.

Is it possible your opinion is biased because of the issue you had with the board? Apparently, no one else has said anything so you may be in the minority on this. Such is HOA living - sometimes people are outvoted or just don't care one way or another.

Generally, it's a good idea to run design standards by the community to get its opinion, but if the Board has the authority to set the standards, it may not have to. If you're really honked off about this, you'll need to rally together like minded homeowners and all of you will need to speak to the board and persuade them to at least propose some color changes and do a poll on what people might like. If no one participates, though, you may have to live with it.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
I know of nothing in either the statutes or the common law in Arizona that would require the board to even ask the members, much less allow a vote, before changing colors. Any requirement of that kind will need to be in your declaration or bylaws.

If this does effect your property values I would interested in seeing some proof.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Paint is a funny thing... The issue maybe that it's too dark NOW because it has not been exposed to the elements/sun. It will typically fade within the year to a lighter shade closer to the sample. I've had a few houses painted exactly like the paint samples but because of the elements it soon fades to that color.

Keep in mind that Paint manufacturers typically change their colors every 7 to 10 years. About the time people need or want to repaint. So your original HOA colors may no longer be available. It's best to go by the FORMULA than paint names. Which paint names change out.

We had to use an off-white "Sawyer's Fence" white. However, they don't make that shade anymore. We also found out that our original color pallet colors no longer were available. Plus considering we did not require a certain paint brand also factor in when we changed our colors. We did allow vinyl siding which has it's own color pallet. Another consideration when selecting colors for paint if you allow vinyl.

It should be a majority vote of the owners to make an overall change to the paint selection. The board can just be part of the selection to make available to vote on...

Former HOA President
GeorgeR8 (Arizona)
Posts: 182
Posted:
I hope you are not one of those people that remain silent until there is something you disagree with and then start saying owners should get to vote on that.

We had one. It cost us several thousand dollars to straighten that person out even though the attorney said about the same thing that I told the owner.

You elect a board to make those decisions. Don't like it, run for the board. In our association everything is a board decision except changing documents and some financials.
JoanneD1 (Arizona)
Posts: 447
Posted:
Thanks so very much for these thoughtful responses. I am sensitive to the colors and the continuity of my community. I also know that there are others who feel this same way Unfortunately, there was no forum for them to openly participate in a discussion other than board meetings which most do not attend.(Their bad) Had there been better communications, some may (operative word) have spoken up BEFORE the project rather than after. Here are some comments I found. These are HOA's in Florida and I share them with you so that you might be aware:

"Ivanovski v Golden Horn : no unit owner vote needed for association to change from carpeting to tile in a room adjacent to the pool, because tile was superior. And….the association can change the style of lighting to provide for more energy efficient lighting without a vote of the unit owners.

However, when it came to changing the color of the building, both inside and out, here is what the order actually said…..

Accordingly, it is ORDERED that the association shall have 60 days in which to prepare and obtain the proper unit owner approval for the changes in lobby (other than the flooring replacement) and the color in the hallway wall paint and the exterior paint color scheme, failing which the association shall have 90 days thereafter to return the hallway walls and building exterior to their original color and restore the lobby walls to their original form and/or condition."

" That's right. Failure to obtain a vote for a material alteration, when required, may result in the actual un-doing of the change. If a Board spends money to paint a building a different color, without a vote, the arbitrator can make the board paint it back to the original color. Talk about the potential for wasting money! All boards should be careful and get the advice of counsel BEFORE making the change."

Happy Holidays to EVERYONE and thanks again.
DonA2 (Arizona)
Posts: 170
Posted:
AS I have been told, unless the ruling was in Arizona, it really doesn't matter. Florida has their laws, Arizona has theirs. So while that ruling may benefit owners in Florida, don't count on it to do much for owners in Arizona.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
I'll bet the decision in "Ivanovski v Golden Horn" turned on specific language in the governing documents.

Generally it seems as though there are wide differences state-to-state but the end-goals are similar and, therefore, the thinking of a court in one state could very well be translated to another state even if a legal precedent cannot.

I have read court decisions in Florida and more than a few cite cases and laws from other states. None of them are binding in Florida, but courts should - and apparently do - consider what's being done elsewhere.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
OK I take back what I said re Ivanovski v Golden Horn. It was an arbitration case involving a Florida Condo association and revolved around the definition of "material alteration". I suspect many people would disagree that paint color is a "material alteration".
JoanneD1 (Arizona)
Posts: 447
Posted:
Geno.....my point exactly. Thanks for the responses. I again read the language in the document and can't really find anything but I am not that good at interpreting that kind of thing. It is true that the BOD is charged with maintenance of the common area but material alternations are not maintenance but that is only my opinion. Guess none of this matters unless one is going to pursue some kind of challenge but I always like to know what the legal ramifications of an issue are before I go further......we have an ignorant PM who always refers to statutes and when asked for the statute.....comes back with I was incorrect. In the meantime she looks smart at a meeting until she is questioned. Very frustrating. Latest faux paux was that an owner asked by there was no nominating committee and said there was statute that prevented one.....WHAT! When she was asked for the statute....she told the owner she was wrong and why doesn't she put a nominating committee together. Like I say, you cannot make this stuff up and for the record......I have tried to get on the board but those that question and challenge are painted with a very bad brush.

Thanks.
JoanneD1 (Arizona)
Posts: 447
Posted:
Well regardless, the arbitration proved otherwise. Did it not say to have a vote of the members and if the owners want a change of the new color, the HOA would have to spend the money and change it back? Lots of chaos and expense just because the BOD did not include or consider a polling of the owner sentiment on the issue. My HOA has wasted thousands as in over $100K on bad projects where owners had no say. It never stops. And they just keep elected the same old people.....very sad.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Boards are elected to make decisions. I do agree that it would've been considerate for the Board to have posted some large samples of colors in a common area and to have sought H/O feedback. But that is not required in AZ. FL law is not applicable.

And painting is not a "material alteration." You hold try really hard, Joanne, to encourage more H/Os to attend your open board meetings. I understand that in AZ owners may add their voices to the discussion of every single open meeting agenda item. With that kind of freedom, H/Os need to act.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
I just tried and failed to find the text of of Ivanovski v Golden Horn. I did find the blog from which the OP quoted but there was no link to the source material; all I found on the blog was someone's interpretation of an arbitrator's opinion. I also found others who alleged that this was a Florida Supreme Court decision but this does not appear to be the case.

The blog nonetheless does contain one import phrase. The author wrote: "Failure to obtain a vote for a material alteration, when required, may result in the actual undoing of the change." The key phrase is "when required." If it is not required in the governing documents and not required by law then it is not required.

JoanneD1 (Arizona)
Posts: 447
Posted:
Thanks Kerry. Appreciate your comments. I think the material changes/alterations is not such a black and white phrase. That is what I am trying to determine. Have a wonderful Holiday.
JoanneD1 (Arizona)
Posts: 447
Posted:
Larry, thanks for this information....I will do some more digging....not quite as good as you. Thanks so much.
JoanneD1 (Arizona)
Posts: 447
Posted:
Larry, I found the case. The state reporting number on Broward County is 062008CA055518AXXXXCE. I tried to take a screen shot but I can 't attach it for some reason. Maybe you will have better luck. Just wanted you to know it is there. Thanks...Joanne
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Joanne

As Larry said, when required thus if silent then approval by owners is not required.

We get quite a few posts from people that never participated in nor understood the way their HOA operated until something happens that they do not like and they start demanding all vote. In many cases they are HOA's that have not had a quorum for years and voted on nothing until the one "incident" happened and someone is upset and demanding a vote.

We also have a few that want owners to vote on every single thing but that is another subject.

As a matter of fact, many of us initially got involved in our HOA as something happened we did not like. Many of we "always accused of being BOD supporters" were initially involved in replacing/overturning an existing BOD.

In a utopian world, a BOD would not make a lot of decisions without some owner input like posting paint samples and asking opinions. In the real world, requesting owner input on most things would be impractical.