Can the HOA Enter Private Property and Cure Violations?

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

In another thread on the use of daily fines a regular poster responded with their oft repeated: "If the member is in violation, the HOA simply could remove/fix the violation and send the owner the bill." And I have seen similar language in a myriad of CC&R's from a multitude of states but here in Ohio we call that trespass. Now I'm not an attorney nor do I work in the legal profession but my lay interpretation of such a clause is:

Yes, the CC&R's are a valid legal binding civil contract, it does not give you (the HOA) the power to violate the criminal statutes. Just as you must jump through specific legal hurdles to lien or to foreclose, IMHO you need a court order giving you the right to enter the homeowner's property to cure the violation. Now would having that clause in your CC&Rs and showing proof that you attempted to get the H/O to cure the violation before resorting to legal action help? Absolutely!

BTW If you find a company dumb enough to go on to someone's private property and do work without a court order and a deputy to enforce the court order in case the H/O makes an armed objection to their being there, you probably don't want to do business with such a company in the first place.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Someone came unto my property like that they might be "saying hello to my little friend", T. Montana

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343

Posted:

My neighborhood had a similar issue. The "HOA" - the association for a neighboring subdivision - amended the governing documents for a different subdivision in an attempt to become the master association. Then, under their new rules, they were upset when a homeowner replaced their roof and changed from shingles to metal. They first demanded the homeowners re-re-roof with a shingle of their liking despite the metal roof being more expensive and better for things like hurricanes. When the homeowners refused to comply there was talk of just going on their property and replacing the roof on their own. I would have loved to see that play out. Luckily they attempted to sue and lost, but I believe their loss was more of an issue that their amendment was illegal and not a matter of trespassing...

But I would think that this is an important lesson for any board - no matter how right you think you are in regards to altering someone eless property, don't.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Glen,

Technically, it would not be trespassing if the recorded CC&R's have a provision to allow the HOA to enter and repair. By accepting the property with those conditions the owner agreed to those terms. Trespass is not an issue of who owns the property; it is a question of who is authorized to be there. In this case, the HOA would not be violating the criminal statutes because the owner consented to allow them to enter.

In reality, the police officer or deputy sheriff who responds to a call for help is not likely to have a degree from Harvard Law School nor is he likely to take the time to find out who is permitted to do what to who. If the owner says he wants those people off his property and they have no court order, the cops will ensure they leave.

A licensed contractor is not likely to get himself in the middle of this, either. Contractors like to record mechanics' liens but those require a signed contract from the property owner. The HOA cannot sign for the owner and the owner certainly is not going to sign, so unless the HOA has its own qualified employees ready and willing to do the work, nothing is going to get done.

The remedy, as always, is to obtain a court order to permit the HOA to enter the specific property and make specific repairs.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LarryB13 on 12/05/2015 7:34 PM
Technically, it would not be trespassing if the recorded CC&R's have a provision to allow the HOA to enter and repair. By accepting the property with those conditions the owner agreed to those terms. Trespass is not an issue of who owns the property; it is a question of who is authorized to be there. In this case, the HOA would not be violating the criminal statutes because the owner consented to allow them to enter.

In reality, the police officer or deputy sheriff who responds to a call for help is not likely to have a degree from Harvard Law School nor is he likely to take the time to find out who is permitted to do what to who. If the owner says he wants those people off his property and they have no court order, the cops will ensure they leave.

A licensed contractor is not likely to get himself in the middle of this, either. Contractors like to record mechanics' liens but those require a signed contract from the property owner. The HOA cannot sign for the owner and the owner certainly is not going to sign, so unless the HOA has its own qualified employees ready and willing to do the work, nothing is going to get done.

The remedy, as always, is to obtain a court order to permit the HOA to enter the specific property and make specific repairs.

The right of entry, inspection, repair, etc is an easement. It works just like the utility easements that the phone and cable companies have.

Agree with your first 2 paragraphs Larry. Don't think that 3rd paragraph would necessarily play out that way. Contract is with HOA, not homeowner. If he wants the business, contractor is likely to go forward if he is confident in HOA's ability to pay.

I think there are many homeowners out there who would let the HOA do the repairs but refuse to pay. If that's the case, the contractor can do the job and avoid the conflict.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By NpS on 12/05/2015 8:32 PM
The right of entry, inspection, repair, etc is an easement. It works just like the utility easements that the phone and cable companies have.

No. An easement is a recorded document that allows a party (the "dominant estate") to enter the property and use a specific part of it for his needs. The dominant estate has no right to go off the easement nor does it have the right to modify or repair the servient estate and bill his work to the servient estate. My home has one easement 3 feet wide from the street to my back yard and another easement 10 feet wide all the way across my backyard. Utility companies may use those easements for their purposes but they do not have the right to paint my home or install a new roof.

The right to enter, repair, and bill the owner for work done is entirely a contractual matter. The first place I would look for that right would be in the CC&R's as that is the contract between the homeowner and the HOA.

Quote:

Don't think that 3rd paragraph would necessarily play out that way. Contract is with HOA, not homeowner. If he wants the business, contractor is likely to go forward if he is confident in HOA's ability to pay.

My post was not clear but my comments were made with the assumption that the HOA was acting without a court order. It is certainly open to debate, but any contractor with a brain in his head is not going to do work on a home without the owner's consent or a court order. The HOA's work order will not protect the contractor from arrest where there is no court order. In my area contractors usually have enough honest work that they have no need to get into the middle of a fight between a homeowner and an HOA.

And why would a contractor want an HOA's business? HOA's take forever to make a decision, every board member wants to quibble about the costs, and when a decision needs to be made regarding something unforeseen, work stops until the next board meeting because no one is allowed to make a decision without board approval.

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343

Posted:

Some of the contractors I know hate HOA work because not only is it difficult to get a decision, they also find that after the work is done it seems inevitable that someone from the board will decide to withhold payment for some trivial reason. And in issues similar to the OP's comment, there have been times communication breaks down on the HOA side and the resident or tenant has no clue and becomes resistant and in other cases the board would insist the company must collect payment from the property owner.

That is why I think it is probably best to proceed with a court order and a clear set of procedures.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Kevin

I would want a court order and a police officer to serve it.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

One of my issues I had to deal with was with a crooked ex-president of our HOA. Let me tell you this guy was a snake salesman that unfortunately was well established in the neighborhood. One of the reasons I was elected was because many members were sick of his crooked ways. He was so crooked that in his mind he "Quit being President to mold me into his replacement". He told me several times that he was the reason I was elected. He was VERY delusional. Although had to "Play" his game because otherwise he would go around bad mouthing you to everyone and he even tried to blackmail me at the end. Poor guy did not know what he got into when he met me and was put into his place.

One of his "schemes" involved trying to get the HOA to pay for his handyman work. This is how I found out about this rule. He wanted us to issue violations to owners for bad paint jobs or other violations. Since he was no longer President it would not be a conflict of interest for him. Basically, he wanted us to hire him exclusively to be the contractor to fix the violations. Which in some cases he even created himself. Once going around with an invalid color swatch painting homes the WRONG color on his PRIVATE contracts. He tried to convince me that it was a Win-Win for the HOA. We could clean up the violations and he would get paid. Which meant he could charge us what he wanted and then we could lien the owners if they did not pay.

Now I did not fall for the "Banana in the tailpipe". Although what he did propose was perfectly legal and within the rules. However, his "idea" meant that the money had to come out of the HOA budget to pay him and then more money to place a lien. While his pockets got full of the membership money and the membership budget got robbed. Keep in mind a HOA is to collect as much as it spends. Having to fork over $2 - $5K on a new paint job plus another $500 for legal costs was NOT in the budget. We had the power to fine but no fining schedule. Which even if we did, could not lien for fines. So NOT a win-win for the HOA...

I give this as an example of how this is a complete option for an HOA can pursue. It just has it's costs that have to factor in. You want the HOA to be able to "Fix" something but not the act to do it. Fines only get you so far. Even our city can come in and remove or cut down weeds violations. They do fines until they get legal access. They then can add the cost of the work to the owner and enforce the fines. So the process isn't unheard of even in local municipalities.

As for my con-artist scumbag "friend"... I out smarted him... Let's just say that people still got served violation notices. We just recommended contractors available to do the work. They could choose him PERSONALLY IF they choose to. We didn't foot the bill. We just had to foot the complaints about his work afterward... That is another story...

Former HOA President

PaulM22 (Florida)
Posts: 13

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 12/06/2015 7:26 AM
Kevin

I would want a court order and a police officer to serve it.

Agree. Despite the fact that our CC&R's allow the HOA to go on the property and avoid a trespassing argument, should we ever have to this, our Board will not make a move without getting our lawyer involved. In the end I think what the provision does as a practical matter is eliminate the need for a long protracted and expensive legal battle in the Courts. For example $1,000 of legal fees and two months with this CC&R provision vs. $10,000 of legal fees and two years without the provision so long as the HOA could meet the burden of proof to show the property was in disrepair and the owner had refused to cooperate over a long period of time. I agree that no sane contractor would enter a property where the owner might come out with a shotgun.

FYI-Here is exactly what our CC&R provision says [It is essentially boilerplate language on all Florida (non-condominium) HOA's formed in the past decade}:

Section 11 - Maintenance. In the event an Owner shall fail (after 30 days written
notice from the Association sent United States Mail, postage prepaid) to maintain a Lot or to maintain the improvements situated thereon in a neat, clean and orderly fashion and otherwise satisfactory to the Board of Directors of the Association, the Association may, after approval of three-fourths (3/4) vote of its Board of Directors have the right. through its agents, employees and contractors, to enter upon said Lot and to repair, maintain and restore the Lot and/or exterior of the building or any other improvement erected thereon. The cost of such Lot and/or exterior maintenance, together with interest at the maximum rate then allowed by law (if not paid within 10 days after written demand therefor), as well as reasonable attorneys' fees and costs, shall be a charge on the Lot, shall be a continuing lien on the Lot and shai.1 also be the personal obligation of such Owner at the time such maintenance is performed. Such lien may be enforced in the manner prescribed by law.

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

almost exactly what my Covenants state

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LarryB13 on 12/05/2015 10:28 PM

Posted By NpS on 12/05/2015 8:32 PM
The right of entry, inspection, repair, etc is an easement. It works just like the utility easements that the phone and cable companies have.

No. An easement is a recorded document that allows a party (the "dominant estate") to enter the property and use a specific part of it for his needs. The dominant estate has no right to go off the easement nor does it have the right to modify or repair the servient estate and bill his work to the servient estate. My home has one easement 3 feet wide from the street to my back yard and another easement 10 feet wide all the way across my backyard. Utility companies may use those easements for their purposes but they do not have the right to paint my home or install a new roof.

The right to enter, repair, and bill the owner for work done is entirely a contractual matter. The first place I would look for that right would be in the CC&R's as that is the contract between the homeowner and the HOA.

What I said was that the HOA's easement works like a utility easement - not that it is the same thing. An easement allows someone to go on the property. What they can do once they are on the property will depend on the nature of the easement. Your utility easement does not allow the utility company to install roofs, but your HOA easement probably does if your HOA is responsible for replacing and repairing roofs. It would be silly if the HOA had to get individual approval from each of the homeowners to work on the roofs. If you look at your docs, you should find an easement somewhere that gives you the right to go on the property to fix the roof. It may not be called an easement in the docs, but that's what it is.

Your distinction between a "recording" and a "contractual matter" is a non-distinction. Easements don't have to be recorded. They don't even have to be contractual. But for purposes of this discussion, that's irrelevant.

Quote:

Posted By LarryB13 on 12/05/2015 10:28 PM

Posted By NpS on 12/05/2015 8:32 PM
Don't think that 3rd paragraph would necessarily play out that way. Contract is with HOA, not homeowner. If he wants the business, contractor is likely to go forward if he is confident in HOA's ability to pay.

My post was not clear but my comments were made with the assumption that the HOA was acting without a court order. It is certainly open to debate, but any contractor with a brain in his head is not going to do work on a home without the owner's consent or a court order. The HOA's work order will not protect the contractor from arrest where there is no court order. In my area contractors usually have enough honest work that they have no need to get into the middle of a fight between a homeowner and an HOA.

And why would a contractor want an HOA's business? HOA's take forever to make a decision, every board member wants to quibble about the costs, and when a decision needs to be made regarding something unforeseen, work stops until the next board meeting because no one is allowed to make a decision without board approval.

Not sure what others have done elsewhere. In my HOA, I think that the properties were vacant/abandoned when the HOA did repairs.

Re arrest, don't think that's likely. More likely that officer will ask the person to leave and take no further action.

Also, re what you said about difficulty in dealing with HOAs can be said about every contract we have. Some contractors have figured it out. Others haven't.

I do agree that there is a potential confrontation between contractor and homeowner. Those are always difficult. Example - our arborist said that a tree on common ground should be removed. Tree wasn't even on the homeowners property. When tree company was here, homeowner had her little kids outside every day - ready to circle round the tree if the tree company approached. Dispute went on for years. Tree company accommodated us because the project didn't involve just one tree. What I'm trying to say is every circumstance is different - and there are other factors that can come into play.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

to answer the OP simplistically:

yes, they can

a better question:

Should they enter w/o a court order?

no, D'UH

JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880

Posted:

Has anyone here gotten such a court order? How much did it cost? What was involved? Did the court grant you attorney's fees?

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Glen,

We had an issue where our architectural chair entered property simply for an inspection.
We also have similar language in our CC&Rs for the right to enter property (we are fee simple town homes).

Well the owner complained and, thankfully, the Board finally too the issue to our attorney.

Our attorney advised us to never enter the property while on HOA business except for the following reasons:

1) leave notice on the door.
2) ring doorbell to ask for an individual
3) we are invited by the owner and, if rented, resident
4) An issue occurs that threatens others (i.e. fire, earthquake, etc.)
5) We have a court order in hand

To do so for any other reason can be considered trespassing and, at the very least, we may be defending a trespassing charge if the resident wanted to force the issue.

RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067

Posted:

Tim, your attorney gave you excellent advise.

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 12/06/2015 1:24 PM
Glen,

We had an issue where our architectural chair entered property simply for an inspection.
We also have similar language in our CC&Rs for the right to enter property (we are fee simple town homes).

Well the owner complained and, thankfully, the Board finally too the issue to our attorney.

Our attorney advised us to never enter the property while on HOA business except for the following reasons:

1) leave notice on the door.
2) ring doorbell to ask for an individual
3) we are invited by the owner and, if rented, resident
4) An issue occurs that threatens others (i.e. fire, earthquake, etc.)
5) We have a court order in hand

To do so for any other reason can be considered trespassing and, at the very least, we may be defending a trespassing charge if the resident wanted to force the issue.

Our HOA CCRs say this:

"The Board of Directors of the Association is hereby
granted the right, in case of any violation or breach of any of
the restrictions, rights, reservations, limitations, agreements,
covenants and conditions herein contained, to enter the residence
upon or as to which such violation or breach exists, and abate
and remove, at the expense of the owner thereof, any erection,
thing or condition that may be or exists thereon contrary to the
intent and meaning of the provisions hereof as interpreted by
said Board of Directors, and said Board of Directors shall not,
by reason thereof, be deemed guilty of any manner of trespass for
such entry, abatement or removal."

Our attorneys told us that we should consult with them before we even THINK about entering anyone's residence to undertake self-help measures. Is the issue that CCRs cannot disclaim trespass violations or is it that bodily harm may result, possibly justifiable, from a resident defending his home?

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GenoS on 12/07/2015 12:02 PM

Is the issue that CCRs cannot disclaim trespass violations or is it that bodily harm may result, possibly justifiable, from a resident defending his home?

The CC&R's create a contractual relationship that would ultimately be resolved in the HOA's favor.

The problem is that the law enforcement officers who show up in response to a homeowner's complaint about trespassing are not HOA lawyers. They have plenty of experience in dealing with "street crime," which includes trespass. Any law enforcement officer is going to tell those whose presence is unwanted to get lost. If they persist in staying they can expect a trip to the local jail.

How the law would treat an owner who defends his property with force, including deadly force, in this situation is anybody's guess.

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343

Posted:

I wonder if such a provision would be upheld. Police don't care about covenants. And this provision doesn't cover contractors, who I am sure would go after the hoa in such a case

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Owners in our high rise sign a waiver saying that the HOA can enter their condos in case of emergency. All except 3 owners have given their key or door combo to the PM. As sometimes happens, there was water intrusion to a couple of units last week and a condo where the owner only lives part-time had to be entered with his key. The pinhole leak in a common area pipe in his unit's wall was the culprit.

(The 3 w didn't sign checked a box saying they decline & understand their door may need to be broken into in case of an emergency. If the source of the me regency was not their condo, the HOA would pay to repair/replace the door.

Now, if he had balcony or condo aesthetic violations, e.g., violet drapes or bicycles, etc., on his balcony, about which he'd been warned and perhaps even fined, our PM would not enter his unit without a court order to cure the violation. Our PM would not tear drapes would not tear down his drapes or his bikes hauled out of sight.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GenoS on 12/07/2015 12:02 PM
Our HOA CCRs say this:

"The Board of Directors of the Association is hereby
granted the right, in case of any violation or breach of any of
the restrictions, rights, reservations, limitations, agreements,
covenants and conditions herein contained, to enter the residence
upon or as to which such violation or breach exists, and abate
and remove, at the expense of the owner thereof, any erection,
thing or condition that may be or exists thereon contrary to the
intent and meaning of the provisions hereof as interpreted by
said Board of Directors, and said Board of Directors shall not,
by reason thereof, be deemed guilty of any manner of trespass for
such entry, abatement or removal."

The problem I see with this language is that it gives the Board a right of intrusion even for the tiniest of infractions. I think your attorney is giving you good advice to contact them before doing anything. The questions that need to be considered are How big an infraction and How urgent is the proposed remedy.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By NpS on 12/07/2015 7:26 PM
The problem I see with this language is that it gives the Board a right of intrusion even for the tiniest of infractions. I think your attorney is giving you good advice to contact them before doing anything. The questions that need to be considered are How big an infraction and How urgent is the proposed remedy.

I agree completely. Later in the same paragraph the right to enforce the CCRs by injunction and/or damages (with recovery of attorney fees as well) is spelled out.

That paragraph is the only means of enforcement that appears in all of the governing documents. I was surprised that the legal opinion we received didn't suggest adding the ability to levy fines to our documents. As written, any type of enforcement action outside of the self-help provision seems to be limited to filing suit in court. That seems extremely expensive and overkill for most things.

PaulM22 (Florida)
Posts: 13

Posted:

Your lawyer didn't add it because the HOA statutes (section 720) permit your HOA to fine violators. Florida law is clear and there are two other "fines" threads going to which I have posted about this. I am in Florida and we are just setting up our fines procedures which we will clear with our attorney before enforcement begins.

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

Florida law is clear, Paula, but the original intent of FS 720.305(2) was to allow fines only if the association's governing documents gave the board the authority to levy fines in the first place. "The association may levy reasonable fines," should have stressed that the word "may" only allowed fines if the documents so provide.

Proposed legislation to be considered next year (HB 653) will make it clear, amending 720.305(2) to read, "If the association is authorized by its original governing documents to impose fines, it may levy reasonable fines."

That's what the legislature intended all along. Their failure to draft precise language led to the present confusion.

Also proposed is competing HB 667 which does not clarify the issue. Either way, I think Florida will eventually (maybe next year, maybe not, but eventually) amend its HOA statutes to clarify the original intent of the lawmakers which was probably not to give associations blanket permission to levy fines in the absence of authorizing language in the governing documents.

DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796

Posted:

We had an issue where an owner wasn't maintaining his unit at all.
We went through the process of notifications of the violation and were working toward a court order.
A couple of people cited the bylaws and asked why we weren't just taking care of it.
I basically said there was NFW I was going to step foot on their property to fix a thing without a court order (but they were welcome to do so on their own if they so choose). Funny that none of them did.

PaulM22 (Florida)
Posts: 13

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GenoS on 12/08/2015 4:53 PM
Florida law is clear, Paula, but the original intent of FS 720.305(2) was to allow fines only if the association's governing documents gave the board the authority to levy fines in the first place. "The association may levy reasonable fines," should have stressed that the word "may" only allowed fines if the documents so provide.

Proposed legislation to be considered next year (HB 653) will make it clear, amending 720.305(2) to read, "If the association is authorized by its original governing documents to impose fines, it may levy reasonable fines."

That's what the legislature intended all along. Their failure to draft precise language led to the present confusion.

Also proposed is competing HB 667 which does not clarify the issue. Either way, I think Florida will eventually (maybe next year, maybe not, but eventually) amend its HOA statutes to clarify the original intent of the lawmakers which was probably not to give associations blanket permission to levy fines in the absence of authorizing language in the governing documents.

******
The proposal is effective in 2017 and will never be passed in its current form.

It creates a new multi-million dollar at $4 per home owner bureaucracy to oversee HOA's. The only beneficiary would be government employees who always strive for full employment to do nothing of value.

All this new legislation would do is prevents Florida's slobs from getting fined and nothing else.

I agree that "daily" fines should not be "stacked" unfairly to someone who does not even have a clue they have a violation. However, so long as the offender has plenty of notice (at least ten business days) and time (two weeks) ....... PRIOR to any fine being levied on them, that their continued uncivilized behavior will not be tolerated will result in a fine .. my gosh ..... how are civilized people suppose to be given their rights to be bound by a contract that says they will properly maintain their property.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

I don't believe the same bureaucracy that creates the mess should be the one overseeing it. Have a private group do it and cut the cost to $1 per home.

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PaulM22 on 12/11/2015 8:15 PM
The proposal is effective in 2017 and will never be passed in its current form.

It creates a new multi-million dollar at $4 per home owner bureaucracy to oversee HOA's. The only beneficiary would be government employees who always strive for full employment to do nothing of value.

The proposed effective date is July 1, 2016, not 2017.

Keep in mind that Florida has had the same arrangement for condominium associations for a long time and I don't hear too many complaints about how ineffective state oversight is there. Rogue condo boards are kept in check far more effectively than their HOA counterparts. Being able to reach out for help with conflict resolution regarding bogus election processes and making sure that the law is followed for budgets and covenant enforcement shenanigans would be a huge step forward. More people live in HOAs in Florida than condominiums. Why should we be second class citizens?

I am in favor of the proposed legislative changes to the way HOAs are governed in Florida. I think the shorter bill should be folded into the larger one and then passed. There is ZERO oversight right now. I've been encouraging everyone to call our state reps and senators to express support for the measures. They might not pass this time around, but the writing is on the wall. Mandatory reserve studies every few years would be nice, too, but at this point I'll take what I can get.

We just got hand delivery today of notice of our "Annual Board Meeting" in January. Something needs to be done and in my opinion the proposed legislation is a good start.

PaulM22 (Florida)
Posts: 13

Posted:

"I am in favor of the proposed legislative changes to the way HOAs are governed in Florida. I think the shorter bill should be folded into the larger one and then passed. There is ZERO oversight right now. I've been encouraging everyone to call our state reps and senators to express support for the measures. They might not pass this time around, but the writing is on the wall. Mandatory reserve studies every few years would be nice, too, but at this point I'll take what I can get."

Question? Might I ask what trailer park you grew up in.

I am age 67 and lived in seven different neighborhoods with HOA rules since I first became a homeowner at age 22. But that was back in Kansas .. where people abide by the rules without even having to read them ... the only violations we had in our neighborhoods were basketball goals. All yards neatly groomed. Nobody would even think of leaving trash bins out in front of their house let alone fail to properly maintain their yards. I ran the last HOA I lived in ... in Olathe KS, a suburb of Kansas City. Average number of violations of covenants: Zero. The number of fines needed to get people to "do the right thing:" zero.

So I retire to Florida and buy a brand new four bedroom house in 2010 in a development that was 50% complete when I signed the contract that requires everything to be "that of a first class neighborhood" and "neatly and properly maintained" with deed restrictive language essentially identical to that of my Kansas neighborhoods.

So while the majority of us here in the neighborhood abide by the rules, keep up their homes and landscaping, etc, here is what we get in our ideally located deed restricted subdivision of new homes with no "thru streets" and a 15 mph speed limit:

A TRAILER PARK atmosphere by about 10% that includes:

Slobs that won't mow their yards
Yards pure weeds, no grass
Cars parked on the lawn
Work trucks in the driveway
Clutter everywhere
5 kids barefoot in a four bedroom home in diapers while alcoholic mom bitches that cars are exceeding the speed limit and dad uses the garage as "living space" to throw keg parties
Trash and recycle bins left in plain view 24/7

So finally we get an HOA board with enough guts to fix this crap ..... so we set out to fine people ...... only to find out the slobs of Florida don't think HOA's should be allowed to fine people. Well gee ... why don't the people of Florida tell the police not to issue speeding tickets, allow street drugs everywhere, and just be uncivilized in general.

That's OK ..... what we do have is a nice "war chest" of cash so we'll be spending several thousand bucks to take the "trailer trash" to court.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

PaulM22

Question? Might I ask what trailer park you grew up in. Sounds a little derogatory to me. I would ask, no demand, an apology.

You're not in Kansas anymore. If you like the ways things were in Kansas, my suggestion, move back there.

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

To play 'Devil's Advocate':

Slobs that won't mow their yards
International Property Management Code permits 12" grass

Yards pure weeds, no grass
Grass itself is classified as a weed (albeit a pretty one)

Cars parked on the lawn
The HORROR - The HORROR

Work trucks in the driveway
O~M~G people actually working

Clutter everywhere
A matter of opinion

5 kids barefoot in a four bedroom home in diapers while alcoholic mom bitches that cars are exceeding the speed limit and dad uses the garage as "living space" to throw keg parties
Barefoot children - The HORROR
Children sharing bedrooms - how awful
People actually living and having fun

Trash and recycle bins left in plain view 24/7
The HORROR - The HORROR

Perhaps YOU should move to a better location where you will not be affected by actual living Homo Sapiens - a 55+ community sounds ideal.

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

ps. If actual Covenants or Deed Restrictions are being violated, why have YOU not as yet brought action in a court of law seeking redress for your ACTUAL DAMAGES?

PaulM22 (Florida)
Posts: 13

Posted:

Actually, I only have to move literally one block west. The subdivision behind me has the same covenants we do and every yard and home is pristine ... like back in Kansas, the way civilized people live. Same demographics, but they have zero tolerance for any covenant violations. Their lawyer set them up with a "fines" schedule years ago but they have never had to fine anyone.

The widow behind me is moving into a retirement home and I have first dibs on her house at appraised value minus realtor commission.

So for about a $20,000 upgrade in home price and $5,000 in moving costs, I am getting out of the trailer park anyway. I just hate to leave my friends here in the neighborhood holding the bag.

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343

Posted:

Sounds subjective. My neighborhood was fond of demanding I do stuff (I guess I am one of those slobs." I refused because I actually read the rules they tried to enforce PLUS the law that protected my rights.

Luckily they never tried to access my property without permission but they did harass me by calling county code enforcement on some of the things they felt were violations (tall grass, potted plants on the driveway, etc.).

Code came out each time to tell me I was good and someone had it out for me. My grass not anywhere over 6" was deemed too high because the HOA and their yard people loved mowing St. Augustin grass down to the roots.

Basically all their complaints stemmed from what they interpreted as unappealing but had no basis to go after me. Had they accessed my property based on that they would have been screwed.

And since you live in Florida, you should acquaint yourself with the law. My HOA seemed to have your mentality until it was realized they lacked any authority. Now they are in some real deep doodoo.

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PaulM22 on 12/12/2015 10:00 AM
Actually, I only have to move literally one block west. The subdivision behind me has the same covenants we do and every yard and home is pristine ... like back in Kansas, the way civilized people live. Same demographics, but they have zero tolerance for any covenant violations. Their lawyer set them up with a "fines" schedule years ago but they have never had to fine anyone.

The widow behind me is moving into a retirement home and I have first dibs on her house at appraised value minus realtor commission.

So for about a $20,000 upgrade in home price and $5,000 in moving costs, I am getting out of the trailer park anyway. I just hate to leave my friends here in the neighborhood holding the bag.

What have you done to help? To better understand the situation?

There was a single mother in my neighborhood who just lost her job. The HOA demanded payments and when she couldn't pay they foreclosed on her house. Did I forget to mention they legally were not allowed to fine, assess, or lien bit they did anyway? The HOA's actions did more to damage our home values than that single mother who lost her job.

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

PaulM22 It must be magic when people can follow the rules without even knowing what they are! How is that even possible unless those people are comatose? Oh wait.... Kansas. Now it makes sense.

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

We can all thank our Creator that we live:

In the land of the free, and the home of the brave.

food for thought

We are free to contractually waive any and all of our rights,

EXCEPT

life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

(which are inalienable)

Oh, well, if our lawns are manicured and our paint is pristine then all must be right in the world, and the children must ALL have eaten.

MERRY CHRIST MASS TO ALL

PaulM22 (Florida)
Posts: 13

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KevinK7 on 12/12/2015 10:12 AM

Posted By PaulM22 on 12/12/2015 10:00 AM
Actually, I only have to move literally one block west. The subdivision behind me has the same covenants we do and every yard and home is pristine ... like back in Kansas, the way civilized people live. Same demographics, but they have zero tolerance for any covenant violations. Their lawyer set them up with a "fines" schedule years ago but they have never had to fine anyone.

The widow behind me is moving into a retirement home and I have first dibs on her house at appraised value minus realtor commission.

So for about a $20,000 upgrade in home price and $5,000 in moving costs, I am getting out of the trailer park anyway. I just hate to leave my friends here in the neighborhood holding the bag.

What have you done to help? To better understand the situation?

There was a single mother in my neighborhood who just lost her job. The HOA demanded payments and when she couldn't pay they foreclosed on her house. Did I forget to mention they legally were not allowed to fine, assess, or lien bit they did anyway? The HOA's actions did more to damage our home values than that single mother who lost her job.

We specifically ask if there is a hardship and respond FAST. When there is a hardship, we go to work to rectify the problem. For example, I spent about 40 hours myself ...... on top of the time of other neighbors helping someone clear out her yard after her husband left her with three kids to care for. Then someone forwarded his facebook page bragging about those "stupid" neighbors that helped her out, like he was proud of it.

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PaulM22 on 12/12/2015 2:14 PM

Posted By KevinK7 on 12/12/2015 10:12 AM

Posted By PaulM22 on 12/12/2015 10:00 AM
Actually, I only have to move literally one block west. The subdivision behind me has the same covenants we do and every yard and home is pristine ... like back in Kansas, the way civilized people live. Same demographics, but they have zero tolerance for any covenant violations. Their lawyer set them up with a "fines" schedule years ago but they have never had to fine anyone.

The widow behind me is moving into a retirement home and I have first dibs on her house at appraised value minus realtor commission.

So for about a $20,000 upgrade in home price and $5,000 in moving costs, I am getting out of the trailer park anyway. I just hate to leave my friends here in the neighborhood holding the bag.

What have you done to help? To better understand the situation?

There was a single mother in my neighborhood who just lost her job. The HOA demanded payments and when she couldn't pay they foreclosed on her house. Did I forget to mention they legally were not allowed to fine, assess, or lien bit they did anyway? The HOA's actions did more to damage our home values than that single mother who lost her job.

We specifically ask if there is a hardship and respond FAST. When there is a hardship, we go to work to rectify the problem. For example, I spent about 40 hours myself ...... on top of the time of other neighbors helping someone clear out her yard after her husband left her with three kids to care for. Then someone forwarded his facebook page bragging about those "stupid" neighbors that helped her out, like he was proud of it.

Well it is good that that guy is no longer part of the neighborhood then...

I am more on the pro-homeowner fence but I have dealt with two crap associations who played loose with he laws and didn't even follow their own rules. I get it that some people want to live in a neighborhood where trash cans are put away promptly and every lawn is perfectly maintained but I don't think that is enjoyable and, at least here in Florida, there are little alternatives to association living and the HOAS can run rampant with no oversight.

This original post involved correcting problems. I saw an association try to do just that on a property outside of their neighborhood and the only way that it was stopped was for the homeowner to spend money to protect their rights. An association is a corporation. I don't care if it is run by volunteers. If they can't perform professionally and to higher standards than a social club than they need to go.