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NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Many HOAs, including mine, have the authority to impose a per diem fine for non-compliance. For example, if something isn't done (grass isn't mowed, unapproved shed isn't removed, etc.) by a certain date, then the HOA can assess $X per day until the situation is remedied (grass mowed, shed removed, etc.)

For those of you who have this capability, I was wondering:

1. How much is your daily fine?
2. Do you apply it always, or just in certain circumstances?
3. If someone brings things into compliance after the deadline, how likely are you to waive the daily fines that were assessed?
4. How effective are the fines for you in getting compliance?

Thanks.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
PaulM22 (Florida)
Posts: 13
Posted:
I need help too and just posted this to the thread "HOA fining" so here is a copy and paste.

Maybe I should start a new thread, but does anyone have an HOA "fining" schedule which is considered reasonable.
I am on the Board of an HOA with 67 houses built between 2008 an 2011 in Florida where the values range from $180K to $230K. Most residents are "fastidious" about the look of their property .... but we have a several that act like they live in a trailer park and ignore notices of covenant violations so we are going to start levying fines pursuant to Florida law.

When I do a search for "fines" on this forum, I do find many discussions including schedules for amounts but not amounts per type of violation. We want to be reasonable and avoid rapid stacking of daily fines for the same offense. We plan to send one "courtesy notice" .... then a "pre-fine" notice that gives violators 15 to 30 days to correct the violation and follow all appeals to a "fines committee" as required by law. For substandard yards (meaning little grass and almost pure weeds (we have four of them) we just ask for a plan of action and follow through. One resident is working diligently and the other three are "getting away with murder."

I note that most HOA's use a graduated schedule such as $25 for the first offense, $50 for the second, and the $100 legal maximum for the third. But I don't find much about different types of violations and their level of severity .... for fist offense:

Trash & recycle bins in plain view $25
Clutter on lawn: $25
Substandard yard: $25
Unkempt lawn (tall weeds, untrimmed bushes: $50
Home in disrepair $50

Any suggestions would be appreciated.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
NP,

IN VA we are limited by statute to $50 for a single offense or $10 per day for any offense of a continuing nature.

My Association has only ever had to threaten monetary penalties. We typically give them one final grace period to bring the issue into compliance before the penalty begins. Members who have gone that far in the process tend to comply once they have had their say and they see that the Board is serious.

If penalties didn't work, the next step would be the courts (but for most of the issues, I think the court would be ticked we are taking their time).
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Paul

The object of fines should be to correct the problem. If and when one starts looking at it as a money making proposition there will be problems.

Be polite, be firm, and be reasonable. You want the problem fixed so keep that goal in mind.
PaulM22 (Florida)
Posts: 13
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 12/03/2015 2:49 PM
Paul

The object of fines should be to correct the problem. If and when one starts looking at it as a money making proposition there will be problems.

Be polite, be firm, and be reasonable. You want the problem fixed so keep that goal in mind.

**********
Agree. We hope we never collect a single fine. We just the "fining schedule" to look reasonable ... but firm as you say. In hopes of course that the mere thought of a fine will get a positive reaction.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I find the fining approach doesn't work. We never fined. Instead we could do something more powerful. If the member is in violation, the HOA simply could remove/fix the violation and send the owner the bill. If the owner did not pay that bill then we could lien them for that amount. That's a little more "simple" terms. Of course we would give the owner time to correct and at their expense. If that failed, then the HOA would pay out at their cost and bill them. Found that was stronger than fining.

Former HOA President
RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NpS on 12/03/2015 12:15 PM
Many HOAs, including mine, have the authority to impose a per diem fine for non-compliance. For example, if something isn't done (grass isn't mowed, unapproved shed isn't removed, etc.) by a certain date, then the HOA can assess $X per day until the situation is remedied (grass mowed, shed removed, etc.)

For those of you who have this capability, I was wondering:

1. How much is your daily fine?
2. Do you apply it always, or just in certain circumstances?
3. If someone brings things into compliance after the deadline, how likely are you to waive the daily fines that were assessed?
4. How effective are the fines for you in getting compliance?
Thanks.

1. Not daily but per violation $50 to $75 (depending on the HOA) with fine doubled each time the violation is not cured by a stated deadline.
2. Always, after the homeowner has first been given a Courtesy Notice to make them aware of the Rule which is being violated.
3. Seldom.
4. Very effective. If the HOA does not have a stated fine policy then the only other option is to take them to court.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
We usually don't have the type of violations that warrant a daily fine. But our fine for a typical violation is $50, which only occurs after an initial courtesy letter. The letter usually is sufficient.

We have a couple of violations for which there's an immediate call to hearing and a fine of $100. These are for objects or liquid coming off our balconies (high rise), or for Owners of units where their own or tenants' dogs have made deposits in the common areas.

All of our fines may double with repeat offenses within 6 months.

I don't know which states other than AL would permit the HOA to enter private property, let's say to tear down an unauthorized shed, to cure violations unless an an emergency.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
NPS

We basically issue fines in the amount of $50 after several warning letters have been sent. We also keep track so if the violation is repeated at a later time we go to $100.

In SC one can lien/foreclose on fines but our lawyer has told us the courts frown on it and best we do not go that route.

We have yet to have a owner that did not correct the problem based on threats of fines alone.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Let me make this CLEAR for everyone. It is NOT an "Alabama" thing about entering property to fix an issue. It is an HOA thing. Our HOA setup is that you own the home and the lot the house sets on. Everything else outside of that is considered HOA common property. The HOA is responsible for maintaining the landscaping and making sure exterior appearance of homes is in compliance. Which means we the HOA can enter your property because we OWN that property around the homes. We can paint houses because we are responsible the paint colors are in compliance. If not, then we can pay someone to paint the home the right color and send the member the bill if they do not comply.

So stop being "Statist". It's an HOA thing. If the HOA owns the property, then it's not trespassing or invasion. It's our job/responsibility to do it. Your HOA may be set up differently. Good for you. However, our HOA allows us to enter property without all the legal dancing because we own it.

Former HOA President
PaulM22 (Florida)
Posts: 13
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/04/2015 9:18 PM
Let me make this CLEAR for everyone. It is NOT an "Alabama" thing about entering property to fix an issue. It is an HOA thing. Our HOA setup is that you own the home and the lot the house sets on. Everything else outside of that is considered HOA common property. The HOA is responsible for maintaining the landscaping and making sure exterior appearance of homes is in compliance. Which means we the HOA can enter your property because we OWN that property around the homes. We can paint houses because we are responsible the paint colors are in compliance. If not, then we can pay someone to paint the home the right color and send the member the bill if they do not comply.

So stop being "Statist". It's an HOA thing. If the HOA owns the property, then it's not trespassing or invasion. It's our job/responsibility to do it. Your HOA may be set up differently. Good for you. However, our HOA allows us to enter property without all the legal dancing because we own it.

******
You are correct. I have studied this to death and here in Florida, and for over a decade, the "boilerplate" language in all HOA CC&R's allows the HOA to enter the property to fix defects with 30 days notice. The reason is obvious. In the past, HOA's had to court to get relief ... a process which is not only costly, but it could take months or years to get the issues resolved. The new provisions eliminate any "no trespassing" defense by the owner of the property. If your HOA does not have this ... I'd recommend changing the covenants.

At item three below, here is how we explain our enforcement options on our website:

Rules Enforcement

1) Fines of up to $100 per violation per day (up to $1,000): These are permitted pursuant to Florida law (Section 720.305(2)) against any Member for failure to comply with any provision of the Covenants or reasonable rules of the Association.

2) Legal action: Article III, Section 1 of the Covenants as well as Florida law (Section 720.305(1)) provides that the Association (or any Member) has the right to enforce by law or in equity all restrictions contained in the Covenants. Although such enforcement can involve a costly and cumbersome legal process, the courts have a history of supporting the application of reasonable rules.

3) Direct intervention: With respect to a property where the yard or the home has been neglected and has essentially become a depreciating property to the neighborhood, Article V, Section 11 of the Covenants states that the Association has the right (with a 30 day notice) to enter upon the lot to repair, maintain, and restore the lot and/or exterior of the building and that the cost of such repairs (along with any legal fees) are to be paid by the Member. If not paid, the costs become a lien on the lot and are a personal obligation of the Member. If the lien remains unpaid, the Board can move to foreclose on the property.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Thank you Paul... Wish I could have stated it as well as you did. People seem to have a hard time accepting this. I didn't make it up!

Remember when you say "HOA is responsible" that means you and your neighbors. It is NOT "They or Them". It is people you know and live with...

Former HOA President
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Thanks everyone for responding.

To bring the thread back on track a bit, I will describe our situation.

1. We never budget for fines. So there is never an expectation or dependency on income from fines.

2. For some strange reason, we have two ways to fine. We have the $25, $50, $100, etc. escalation method for repeat offenses. We also have the per diem method of charging a fixed amount per day after setting a deadline. I think having both systems has led to some confusion. There's no clear distinction of which method to use.

3. For minor offenses (trash, parking, etc), we send a letter. Homeowners almost always take care of it right away. Never have to go as far as actual fining.

4. Most of the issues that concern us are about failure to make repairs or complete repairs in a timely fashion. We have the right to fix and bill. Back when the association was young, these repairs were relatively easy and cheap. But today if someone let's their house go, it usually involves years of neglect. Our board just isn't going to put thousands of dollars into a home. So even though we have the right to fix, bill, and lien - it isn't going to happen.

5. We have never foreclosed on anyone. (In PA, we can obtains liens and foreclose on fines alone.) The standard is reasonableness rather than a fixed dollar amount. Because there is no statutory limit, judges are free to make their own call on what's reasonable.

6. I am surprised that there were so few responses that described per diem (daily) fining. Is it that unusual?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NpS on 12/03/2015 12:15 PM
Many HOAs, including mine, have the authority to impose a per diem fine for non-compliance. For example, if something isn't done (grass isn't mowed, unapproved shed isn't removed, etc.) by a certain date, then the HOA can assess $X per day until the situation is remedied (grass mowed, shed removed, etc.)

For those of you who have this capability, I was wondering:

1. How much is your daily fine?
2. Do you apply it always, or just in certain circumstances?
3. If someone brings things into compliance after the deadline, how likely are you to waive the daily fines that were assessed?
4. How effective are the fines for you in getting compliance?

Thanks.

We have a daily fine of $10.00 per day for pets in apartments. Also a daily fine of $10.00 a day for locks not keyed to the master lock. (This is an apartment style condominium. If water is leaking into the hallway we need to be able to get into any unit by the water leak. Also a pest control company needs to enter units and there may be other emergencies.)

We always apply it but are slow to apply it giving at least one verbal warning before a fine letter is sent.

Since we are slow to apply, we are unlikely to waive the daily fines that were assessed.

I have noticed fines being extremely effective in getting compliance.

Before we had a fine schedule we had rules with no teeth and those who did not want to comply did not comply. Some of our fines are monthly.
BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186
Posted:
At one time we were fining $50.00 for the first month of noncompliance to a rule. $100.00 for the second month for a total fine of $150.00 for the second month if the fine had not been paid and the owner was still noncompliant. Then $150.00 for the third month for a total of $300.00 if the fine had not been paid and the owner was still noncompliant.

We had to lower the total fine amount since one of our lawyers told us we could not fine this way.
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
What did the other lawyers say ?

"One of our......" implies you have more than one.

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